Heating alternatives for the new barn?

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:58 am

I would like to stay out of the propane tank but want to be able to heat the new space while I'm out there. I was thinking about one of the add on wood burning stoves that I can put in the breezeway, heat the garage and tap it into the main trunk line that's right on the other side of the foundation wall. The one I was looking at was about $1800 without ductwork and chimney. It would pay for itself in the first couple of years not having to fill that tank twice a year. Other thoughts were just a small wood burner out in the corner of the garage. I bring home a lot of wood scraps and tree branches from my projects, so fueling these things wouldn't be much of a problem.

I do have an old propane furnace at our cabin that I could bring home and rehab for next to nothing, just trying to get away from the cost of the LP.

Any thoughts on heating options? You guys have pellet stoves and other burners around here.

jb

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:26 am

While I like the idea of a wood stove there are a couple things to consider. It will take up some floor space, mostly for safety sake. Also, as I'm sure you know, scrap wood, depending on type and size doesn't have a lot of heat value and burns up quick. It will take a LOT and its harder to stack.
Lots of guys in these parts use mobil home furnaces and keep an outside oil tank with #2.
Of course, a lot depends on how often and for how long you need heat.

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:56 am

Burning scrap wood sure helps to off set having to buy/cut/split wood but its normally wet from the get go. That said now you'll need somewhere to store it so it can dry . Goes for regular firewood too.
It's kind of a shame you hadn't brought this up before the floor went in, could have installed radiant pipe and then tied into your existing heat or a small oil burner. More to the project bottom line but worth it.
I agree LP isn't cheap!
There is always an outdoor woodstove, again keeping it fed is the issue.
A free standing coal stove maybe? Buy coal by the bag, moisture not much of a concern, stores easily...
Just spitballing here.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:01 am

I use wood heat but the cook stove in the house and the wood stove in the garage are grandfathered in otherwise my home owners insurance won`t insure me.
So check that out first.
We have lots of wood on the property so not a issue, i used to have a free standing fuel oil furnace in the garage that i loved until the price of fuel went way up.
I had a switch on it so it only ran when i was out there.

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:32 am

Another thought is a waste oil burner, burns used motor oil. Now you have the problem of storing and getting used oil...

piller · Post by **piller** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:28 am

Pellet stoves are nice, but you have to buy the pellet fuel. It runs about $4.00 per 40 pound bag around here if you buy it in 50 bag/1 ton on a pallet amounts. Depending on whether you run it full time or not, it could cost $200 or more for heating each year. Probably more.

We use a pellet stove, and live on the South side of Dallas just above Waxahachie, TX. A ton of pellet fuel normally lasts us all Winter and is cheaper than electricity. The electricity rates around here are painfully expensive. It is common to hear of people bragging when they get below $400 a month in the Summer. A big house and a pool runs you around $600 per month. Winter is not all that harsh here, and we usually get 2 weeks of snow and ice per year. Kind of like a nice fall in the Dakotas or Wisconsin.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:42 am

I'm heating my garage with a Monitor I bought on Craigslist.

last year I used the internal tanks which gets to be a PITA, so
this year I installed an outside tank for K-1. They're pretty efficient,
and don't need much floor space. Installation is a snap. One hole in
the wall, and a another small one for your oil line if you have an
external tank.

Yer not gonna die of heatstroke in an uninsulated building with one
of these, but it's certainly warm enough to work.

-Stretch

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:28 am

Think like this....how often are you going to be out there when it's cold enough to require heat? For me, that's not too often because if it's that cold I'm hanging in the house.....

If the above is the case, just buy one of those torpedo heaters. If it's going to be a lot, then it's another no brainer....wood stove.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:37 am

IMO, insulate the walls and put in a ceiling with insulation over it. Lot's of buddys up here use a pellet stove (Tacoma Area...winters are not very cold...up on Lake Erie, YMMV). In my 1600sf double wide, I use a propane freestanding set at 65 and then have a little electric space heater I can use in bathroom or at the desk where I spend a lot of time. And, I dress warm.
My propane stove has a pilot light and requires no electric to run. Pellet stoves can be had with a battery backup with a solor panal on the roof for the battery charger.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:41 am

.

I would caution you to keep a woodstove outside of the shop, as (if you do any woodwork) sawdust could accumulate in/near the stove & catch fire, even if a vacuum/exhaust system is also installed.

An outdoor woodstove/furnace is a great solution after the floor's poured, but be prepared to lay in a cord or two of real wood (trees) ILO relying on scrap wood - and never burn pressure-treated lumber, as it will build up creosote on the smokestack walls & you might have a chimney fire on your hands.

Also, an outdoor furnace usually needs to be kept burning because they don't throw heat immediately, like a home heating system.

It looks like your home isn't heated by an oil-fired furnace/burner, or you might be able to extend the house's current heating system. (that may require a BTU upgrade to the house furnace, though)

An alternative might be to purchase a portable indoors kerosene heater (about $200, below, for 80K BTU's), like home builders sometime use in cold areas.

.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:32 pm

Thanks for the thoughts, guys.

I will eventually insualate and panel the inside. Would lose too much heat up into the attic if I don't. I have torpedo heaters but they're noisy and smell. The wood shop is in the other little garage so the dust control isn't an issue. I'll be out there enough, it think that I'd like to have some kind of heat. I really like the idea of the add on wood burner but where it would have to sit, I'd have to put up a very tall chimney to get it over the ridgeline of the main house. Expensive and would look out of place. Thinking my best bet would a pellet stove or small wood burner. The oil furnaces around here are pretty uncommon as well as the used oil burners. Looked into those about a year ago. Floor heat would have been out, costs way too much for what I'd get out of it.

I'll keep looking.

jb

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:42 pm

.

Solar panels ?

.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:29 pm

Indoor kerosene heaters can be an issue in an area that's closed up. Carbon monoxide poisoning is a real issue using these inside your garage. They do work great on construction sites, but usually not used once doors and windows are installed.
I have a friend who heats his 4 car garage with an old wood stove he removed from his home. If it's really cold, and we're working in just one stall he has a curtain that he rigged up to drop down and divide the back two stalls from the front. It only take one decent log in it to keep the area toasty all day.
If you're going to be using a small area for reloading or bench work, I;d suggest walling in a work area inside and putting a small electric heater in the wall to keep it warm. Better than heating the entire shop for just one area you need.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:48 pm

Pete44ru wrote: ↑Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:42 pm .

Solar panels ?

.

We would have to have to see the sun more than twice a month.

jb

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:23 pm

One of the reasons I put a 5-0 door in my shop, if I gotta work on my lawn tractor, quad or Ranger in the heat of summer or when its 0 I can get into the AC or heat from the woodstove . My shop has 1" of styrofoam insulation but with the stove I can work in a tshirt & jeans all winter

As for pellet stoves they are very economical to run, give good heat and no cutting splitting or stacking wood. Huge time saver.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:54 pm

Oversized doors are always good. Stairwells too, mine are always 4' wide.

Looking more and more like the pellet stove is the way to go. Going to bring home the old Lorain Stove Works Propane furnace anyway. I can run a chimney for both of them out the same vent. That way I'll have a dual fuel proposition. Bubbles called the alarm company this morning about a video/ floodlight gizmo for that end of the house. Can't see anything out there now. We don't have a lot of issues here, but we have had a couple instances where some would be wrong doers needed to be run off.

jb

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:18 pm

Jason...on the flood light thing, I went to Costco and bought 8 of these LED flood lights that work off the sun. These suckers are bright and I have them all over the place. You can set them for 30 seconds to 90 seconds along with the distance you want the motion detector to work.

These lights go off all the time and when we look outside there's usually a fox, cat, or four legged coon setting them off. I installed them two years ago and they are still working great. Earlier in the summer I cleaned off the lenses to keep them bright. I'm told the rechargeable batteries last about 3 years so I went out and bought a mess of them...they ain't cheap.....and installed them in one of the lights but were not needed. I have another four that are hard wired to the house and these are brighter yet.

Before stepping in front of it

After

One out by the wood pile. Picture does not do it justice...it's bright

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:34 am

The only drawback to a pellet stove is the electronics in them. Heaven forbid they ever go out, as the stove wont work at all if they do! My daughter has a pellet stove to heat her home as a backup to the oil furnace. The control unit failed and the price tag for a new control unit was $2,000.
I went through the pellet stove to see if there was any way possible to make it work safely as a manual operation, and no go. It's a very expensive pellet stove, and expensive to fix. So she abandoned it, and doesn't use it anymore. The cost of having the board replaced didn't include a technician either.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:42 am

That’s something I hadn’t thought about until I started reading about the pellet stoves.
And you’re very right about the torpedo heaters. Not the best for a closed environment.
A small wood burner for less than a grand would be the ticket. For now at least. I can always upgrade down the road. I still have a lot of work to do out there so really just looking around right now.

jb

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:00 am

my shop has a NG heater hung from the rafters. waiting for extreme cold wx to see if it can keep the inside above ambient outside... might be a long wait...

BUT. nothing beats wood heat. no electricity. wood is everywhere, a little advance planning takes care of the winter needs. no other fuels needed. and pellet stoves? need both pellets and electricity. not pretty when those both run out at the same time.

I'll put a wood burner in there some day. It's the routine that appeals to me, and the presence of indoor sunshine. And no switches, valves, chips, batteries, or instruction manuals.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:56 am

I heated my previous house with this pellet stove for a decade or so.
4.5 tons of pellets for a 2,000sq. ft. ranch. In central Maine.

The good:
1. House was warmer than when heated with oil for the same money.
2. Less fluctuation in price than oil.
3. When I installed it, pellet prices were VERY cheap, and the stove
paid for itself in a year or two.

The bad:
1. Need to keep pellets dry.
2. Need a winter's worth on hand at the beginning of the season,
or you'll chase supply all winter long.
3. Pellets must be DRY. ANY water will ruin them.
4. This stove was more manual than some of the pricey ones.

That said, I was very happy with that heater in the house.

Right now, I prefer my garage setup with the Monitor. Clearances don't have
to be as great with the Monitor, and I don't have to make room for storing
pellets under cover. The used Monitor was also MUCH cheaper, and I didn't
have to buy the pricey 4" chimney, either. YMMV. Both need electricity.

In the previous house, I had a big Old Mill wood stove in the garage. Toasty!
Too big for the application, but I got it cheap!

-Stretch

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Englander-1 ... /203485650

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:56 pm

Great info, guys. That's what I love about this site, so many of you guys "Have been there, done that"!

Grizz,

Those NG hanging furnaces can run up a heck of a bill. We have a small commercial building that my dad rents out one half and uses the other side for storage/ reair/ workshop for his other rental properties. That thing is a pig when it comes to feeding it.

jb

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:41 pm

marlinman93 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:34 am The only drawback to a pellet stove is the electronics in them. Heaven forbid they ever go out, as the stove wont work at all if they do! My daughter has a pellet stove to heat her home as a backup to the oil furnace. The control unit failed and the price tag for a new control unit was $2,000.
I went through the pellet stove to see if there was any way possible to make it work safely as a manual operation, and no go. It's a very expensive pellet stove, and expensive to fix. So she abandoned it, and doesn't use it anymore. The cost of having the board replaced didn't include a technician either.

Might it be safe to opine that a cheap model might be simpler and much easier/cheaper to fix? It's a blower, an auger, and thermostat...what else do you need? On vehicles, it's the bells and whistles that are always going out and expensive to fix.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:50 pm

BlaineG wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:41 pm
Might it be safe to opine that a cheap model might be simpler and much easier/cheaper to fix? It's a blower, an auger, and thermostat...what else do you need? On vehicles, it's the bells and whistles that are always going out and expensive to fix.

No, it wouldn't be safe to opine that. They all use those things and an electronic control to sense the flame, and temperature, and adjust auger speed to control temp. The electronic control is spendy on every brand you buy.
Daughter bought one built here in Eugene, Or. because she hoped local place would be better. But my investigation found that the controllers are expensive on all makes and models. Also the weak link on all of the pellet stoves.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:52 pm

No electricity, no oil, no propane, no natural gas, the only small expense besides my time and energy.....I have three friends who are tree surgeons and when they are in the area, they drop me off the rounds.....all hardwoods....oak, hickory, ash, some maple.....I split and burn it. The only thing they ask is answers to gun questions and occasionally ask for ammo. It's been this way since 1981.

I have a full electric house....the sun provides all of my outdoor lighting....a very high sear number Mitsubishi heat pump provides air conditioning and heat...I like a cool house in the summer...72 degrees......electric for everything else...and I'm not afraid to use electricity...a high bill in the summer is around $160-180 with normal bills around $130. Our electric provider, PECO.....Philadelphia Electric Company has one of the highest per kilowatt hour charge in the country.

I live cheap and if nature can provide it, I'll use it.------6

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:54 am

I like the oil bottle cheater.

jb

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:55 am

2ndovc wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:54 am I like the oil bottle cheater.

jb

That is known as Girl Scout Fluid !

Personally I prefer a 1 match fire. Easy for me with all the wood chips I make from planer/jointer. Small handful and kindling and most times ya just need 1 match. Cotton balls work well too.

Like Jack says a wood stove is going to be your cheapest option.

piller · Post by **piller** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:50 am

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produ ... -000-sq-ft

No electricity needed, no electronics to go out.

harry · Post by **harry** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:26 am

Ok I found your wood stove

http://soapstone-woodstove.com/sinatra-bakeoven.html

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:53 am

When we built this house about 15 years ago I put in a ground source heat pump. Had to have 300 feet of lateral lines so I dug it 5' deep and doubled 2" black vinyl down each side of the ditches. You can't even compare these geo-thermal units to air exchanger heat pumps. Constant 55 degree water to heat or cool from. Of course I have wood stoves for backup and that's all I have in the shop. I had 100 acres of timber cut last year so all those tops are ready to cut up. I have a couple of guys cutting firewood to sell and they have stocked up my porches. Worst thing about pellet stoves is they don't work without electricity and we have ice storms here. I've had to fire up my generator/welder every winter for the last several years just to have hot water and keep the frig and freezer going. Wood stove keeps the house comfy.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:06 am

harry wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:26 am Ok I found your wood stove
http://soapstone-woodstove.com/sinatra-bakeoven.html

Now that looks like a trouble free option! Wish they made them as an insert. My daughter's pellet stove is an insert, so she needs that style to fit into her fireplace and not take up floor space in her little cottage.

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:56 am

As MM said ya gotta have electricity- that's why I had my electrician hook that circuit into the transfer switch so I can run my pellet stove.
Geothermal is definitely a great way to gain free heat/cool depending on time of year. Sadly here where I'm at is the top of the hill and solid rock about 30" down.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:54 pm

Geothermal was popular here about 15 years ago or so. Gets too cold some winters for it to be really efficient and the backup heat, whatever it may be, kicks in.

jb

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:52 pm

2ndovc wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:54 pm Geothermal was popular here about 15 years ago or so. Gets too cold some winters for it to be really efficient and the backup heat, whatever it may be, kicks in.

That's the beauty of geothermal, air temp doesn'l effect it. You're using 55 degree water to transfer to or from. You can have wells drilled thru whatever is there. One of mine has 6 each 100' wells each through 30' of limestone. Just dry holes with loops down in them.
jb

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:52 am

So, not one person took the time to look at my link to Tractor Supply Company's no electricity pellet stove. Yes, there is 1 wood pellet burning stove which does not use electricity. https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produ ... -000-sq-ft

Here is the link again.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:34 am

piller wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:52 am So, not one person took the time to look at my link to Tractor Supply Company's no electricity pellet stove. Yes, there is 1 wood pellet burning stove which does not use electricity. https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produ ... -000-sq-ft

Here is the link again.

I did look at your link. Not sure why you think nobody looked at it? I commented on it, but not computer savvy enough to quote two people in my reply, so sorry if I didn't quote you.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:36 am

Missed that one, Piller.

That's a VERY cool concept, though. Tempted to get one just because........
Sounds like they are QUITE fussy. need to get the draught JUST right,
and use softwood pellets only for the best performance.

My Englander pellet stove was like that at first, and I used some
rather colorful language and prodded the wretched thing rather
vigorously with my boot from time to time, but I got it figured
out eventually.

The non-electric sounds like fun!

-Stretch

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:30 pm

I looked at it as well, but for the $1500+ price tag I would pass.

The Boss Lady and I were talking about the different options last night. She loves the $13k burner, but wants to put it in the living room.

She did ask why though, with all the wood you bring home and already burn wouldn't it make the most sense for a plain old wood burner? Smart girl.

I'll get one before long. Still have to get the roof on and siding as well. Raining non-stop so things are waiting a bit.

jb

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:52 pm

There is gobblerforge’s rocket stove:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63708&p=755226&hili ... er#p755226

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:53 pm

Gobblerforge seems to have a good system there. No system is perfect, but the ones with no electronics should be long lasting and inexpensive to maintain.

My pellet stove has been in use for more than 10 years. I have replaced the igniter 3 times and a control board once. The control board was about $200. The igniter is cheap.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:17 pm

We don't have enough winter here to put in any kind of outside heat source other than our hear pump. I did see a masonry stove in an old Mother Earth news years ago that was about 10' or 12' long. The firebox was in one end and the flue ran horizontally thru the mass of the stove before it exited out the other end. The idea was that you built your fire in the firebox and it draws the smoke and the heat thru the mass of the stove which heats it up. After you heat the mass of the stove you can allow the fire to go out and it will continue to give off heat for some time. A little research might turn up some good ideas.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:56 pm

Thanks for the heads up on the gas heater. Around here NG is the cheapest fuel, so I'll see how it goes. Will be worth it to be able to do epoxy and glass work in the winter.

I prefer wood for heat and it makes a lot of sense in a shop. Can't beat it for sitting around a coffee pot. So one day I might weld one together just for fun.

2ndovc wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:56 pm Great info, guys. That's what I love about this site, so many of you guys "Have been there, done that"!

Grizz,

Those NG hanging furnaces can run up a heck of a bill. We have a small commercial building that my dad rents out one half and uses the other side for storage/ reair/ workshop for his other rental properties. That thing is a pig when it comes to feeding it.

jb

wm · Post by wm » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:46 am

Solar? The more roof you have the more space you have panels.

I've been putting off a new roof on my house hoping the solar shingles would become an affordable alternative but I think time is not on my side on this matter

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:24 am

Solar really depends on whether it's active or passive solar as to whether it's better for heating or even justifiable as an alternative. Either system is expensive, but active solar that produces electricity, vs. passive that is used to heat water and raise it's temperature. Active is much more expensive. And considering the life span of active solar components, and whether your local utility company will buy back excess electricity or whether your system includes battery banks, etc. I just couldn't ever justify the expense of active solar. And for a shop I'd not justify the expense of passive solar to heat water that you rarely use in a shop. Plus the small amount of heat it gives during months when you need it the most.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:15 pm

Exactly. Our arer of OH is dark, cloudy and stormy for a lot more of the year than just a hundred miles to the south. If that. The return on the investment just wouldn't be worth it.

I checked with my ins. agent just to be sure, but a new made wood burner would not raise our policy rates by much if professionally installed ( that's me) and has the proper ratings won't affect much.

That should take care of what I need.

jb