Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

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Cheyenne
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Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Cheyenne »

Hi there,

I have a Winchester 94AE that has occasional feeding problems. The problem occurs when the action is closed forcefully. The gun feeds fine when worked slowly. It works fine when opened forcefully and then closed gently. The problem occurs with forceful(I would actually say "normal") closing of the action. I do want to stress that I am not working the action too hard, the problem occurs within the normal operating speed/force of a levergun.

The jam appears to be caused by the rear of the case being lifted too far/fast and then the middle of the case wedging against the top of the rear of the chamber. Imagine the case with a very slight nose-down attitude and then wedging when trying the enter the chamber. So, the action jams with the cartridge about halfway into the chamber. It can be easily cleared by backing off the lever. The case also appears to force itself under the extractor and it pushes the extractor off to the side quit a ways. So, instead of the typical push-feed action, it's like a failed control-feed.

This occurs with factory Winchester ammo, snap caps, and reloads (full length resized and trimmed to correct length). So I think this problem is all in the gun, not the ammo.

I doubt this is normal, so I hope someone can direct me to a solution. I will be happy to provide any additional details. To my untrained eye, it seems like the cartridge, particularly the rear of the cartridge, is being raised too far or too fast. Or, the cartridge isn't settled before being pushed into the chamber.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by JerryB »

Welcome to the best gun forum there is. There are several members here that can help you with your problem, just stay with us.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by AJMD429 »

I don't know the answer either, but within 72 hours you'll do unless get several people who actually KNOW something about leverguns (I just buy 'em and shoot 'em) who will answer.

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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by OldWin »

Welcome to the fire!

I'm no expert, but sounds like the guides at the rim opening, causing the rim to not get under the extractor when it should.
That is a SWAG, however. It may help if we know what chambering your 94 is. Also bullet style if its chambered in a pistol caliber.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Cheyenne »

The gun is chambered in 30-30.

If the rim is supposed to be under the extractor on feeding, then maybe I have a different problem. On my gun, the cartridge is only controlled by the extractor on extraction. It is merely push fed into the chamber, not under control of the extractor.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Malamute »

They are push feed so to speak, the rim isnt supposed to be under the extractor, the spring loaded ejector is pushing the shell forward until it bottoms out in the chamber, then the extractor snaps over the rim.

Do you have access to another Winchester 94 to compare how the shell acts when you cycle the action slowly with a cartridge? It almost sounds like the slots in the cartridge guides have been messed with. Some believe Winchesters are only supposed to work when operated quickly, which I do not agree with, as all Ive ever had functioned perfectly at any speed.

Does the carrier (lifter) have good spring tension when its in the upward position? If not, it may not be holding the cartridge in tension under the cartridge guides until the cartridge nose is entering the chamber far enough to be controlled correctly by the bolt.

Steve will likely have a good idea of whats happening. I havent heard of this particular problem before that I recall.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Cheyenne »

Okay, here's a video of the jam to shed a little more light on the situation: https://youtu.be/Y4MCRPclozw

First the action is worked empty, then slowly with snap caps, then briskly with snap caps. Hopefully that makes things clearer since describing exclusively through text can be challenging. I don't have another 94 to compare to, so hopefully the video can show you what is going on.

Off camera, I was able to recreate the jam with an empty, sized, and trimmed case. This, to me, confirms it is not a bullet/OAL issue.

I think the feeding looks correct when done slowly; the case is pushed forward by the ejector. The lifter appears to have sufficient spring tension, but I can't say what is proper.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Pete44ru »

.

Welcome to the board, Cheyenne !

FWIW, I've owned over a dozen Winchester 94's over the past 50 years, including few 94AE's, and none of mine have ever exhibited the issues in your video.

Did you buy this gun "new" or "used", and do you reload for it ?

I would suggest a light polishing of the upper half of the rear of the chamber, and the outer forward surface of the extractor claw, one at a time before testing, to isolate some of the possible causes, would be a good place to start your diagnostic procedure.

Also, I would suggest you test cycle with a few commercial rounds ILO the snap caps or your reloads (?).



.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Nath »

The ejector maybe the issue here.

IIRC the ejector needs to compress when feeding the round in the chamber.
If it is binding you can get your issue.

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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Cheyenne »

I purchased the gun used and it has jammed with commercial ammunition too. The first 60 rounds I fired out of it were factory Winchester 150 gr and they jammed just the same as everything else.

I can compress the ejector with my finger, but it is difficult to do so. The cartridge does not compress the ejector until either jammed or properly seated in the chamber.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Cheyenne »

After mulling this over I'm wondering if the previous owner didn's screw with the cartridge guides. Maybe the cartridge is being released too early (or late).

Does anyone know of a guide/tutorial for tuning the cartridge guides? Maybe better, does anyone know of a good gunsmith who still knows the Win 94 intimately and might be able to fix it? I'm willing to ship the gun to the right person. If the smith is in OH, PA, WV, even better.

Thanks.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Malamute »

The ejector spring isnt going to compress any until the round seats in the chamber or it gets a fair amount of resistance, which I dont think feeding whould provide, the spring is pretty stout.

It looks like the edge of the chamber mouth is sharp and catching in the shell body to me. Id very gently break the edge with a fine ceramic stone on the top half of the edge of the chamber and see if it still happens. The cartridge guide slots dont look funky, but we cant see them very well in the video. Can you get clear pics of the slots in the cartridge guides? Do the edges and angles of the slots look crisp, or radiused over on the edges?

Here are pics of guides to compare to.

https://www.google.com/search?q=winches ... 69&dpr=1.1
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by J Miller »

Question: Is there any copy rights to pictures posted on Leverguns by forum members? I went through the Google search Malamute posted and found several of my pics I posted here stolen and used by others. Is there anything I can do about this since I did not print a copyright line on the pics?

Jo
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Nath »

Thinking about it yes, I remember one of my 94's not being radiused enough top side circumference of the chamber mouth and that could hang up too.
Pete did mention this too.

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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Malamute »

J Miller wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:11 am Question: Is there any copy rights to pictures posted on Leverguns by forum members? I went through the Google search Malamute posted and found several of my pics I posted here stolen and used by others. Is there anything I can do about this since I did not print a copyright line on the pics?

Jo
Without a copyright notice on an image I dont think you can do much.

Ive seen some of my pics elsewhere, one person was surprised that I was on the forum he posted one of my pics on, though he wasnt claiming it was his, it was a pic about cleaning up the back of the loading gate I think.

A couple times I wanted an image of mine but was either on a new computer that didnt have all my pictures on it yet or someone elses, I dont recall which, maybe both, and found it simpler to google the idea to find my own pictures than try to find where I posted them or my photobucket album if I didnt have it bookmarked in that particular computer. Another of the dumb things photobucket did, doing away with the user search.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Cheyenne »

Ok, thanks for the idea. I was hesitant to try polishing the chamber when Pete suggested it, but with more of a consensus now, I'll give it a shot after work.

Thanks to all for the advice and I'll let you all know how it works out.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by J Miller »

Malamute wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:45 am
J Miller wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:11 am Question: Is there any copy rights to pictures posted on Leverguns by forum members? I went through the Google search Malamute posted and found several of my pics I posted here stolen and used by others. Is there anything I can do about this since I did not print a copyright line on the pics?

Jo
Without a copyright notice on an image I dont think you can do much.

Ive seen some of my pics elsewhere, one person was surprised that I was on the forum he posted one of my pics on, though he wasnt claiming it was his, it was a pic about cleaning up the back of the loading gate I think.

A couple times I wanted an image of mine but was either on a new computer that didnt have all my pictures on it yet or someone elses, I dont recall which, maybe both, and found it simpler to google the idea to find my own pictures than try to find where I posted them or my photobucket album if I didnt have it bookmarked in that particular computer. Another of the dumb things photobucket did, doing away with the user search.
Thanks, I guess I'll have to start marking them in the future.

joe
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Cheyenne
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Cheyenne »

Well, whatever I did today didn't fix the problem.

I used fine (1500 and 1000 grit) sandpaper wrapped around a dowel to try and polish or break the edge of the upper-rear of the chamber. I loaded up some dummy rounds in sized and trimmed brass and still experienced the jamming. The dummy rounds are covered in lengthwise striations (the whole length of the case) and the rims look pretty beat up as well. I am sure I didn't make things worse, this is just the result of jamming the same two cases over and over again.

Maybe I wasn't aggressive enough or didn't get the right angle. I might go at it again with a coarser grit of sandpaper, but I am obviously hesitant to get too aggressive.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Pete44ru »

.

I would respectfully suggest using an oiled stone with a square end that's even a bit larger than the chamber mouth, and twist/scrape it's front edge/corner around the upper circumference.

Emery paper will take so long that you'll be ready for your Dirt Nap before the chamber lip will be rounded enough. :roll:


.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Nath »

Pete44ru wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:58 pm .

I would respectfully suggest using an oiled stone with a square end that's even a bit larger than the chamber mouth, and twist/scrape it's front edge/corner around the upper circumference.

Emery paper will take so long that you'll be ready for your Dirt Nap before the chamber lip will be rounded enough. :roll:


.
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Remove the bolt and get a dowel wrapped in #600 paper if no stone handy.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Cheyenne »

Hi Guys,

I just wanted to give this case a little bit of closure.

I used a 1/4" square fine India stone I had laying around to "round off" the rear of the chamber (not as drastic as it sounds). The rifle now feeds much, much more reliably and the occasional hangup can be fixed by applying a little more pressure to get the bolt to close. The remaining hiccups may be the result of using such dinged up dummy rounds, so the real test will be when I load up a bunch of live ammo and get to the range. But already massive strides have been made in reliability.

Thanks for everyone's help.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Malamute »

Thanks for letting us know what helped and that youve got it headed the right direction.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Pete44ru »

.

I luv it when a plan comes together...………… :mrgreen:

.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Cheyenne »

Sorry to resurrect an old post, but I wanted to add a bit more information in order to contribute to the greater knowledge base should anyone have the same problem and stumble across this post on Google.

The polishing/breaking of the chamber edges certainly ameliorated to the problem, I no longer experienced jamming with half the case still outside of the chamber, as seen in the video above. However, I would still occasionally get a noticeable sticking point with 1/4" or so of the case exposed, which could be muscled home.

I lived with it like that for a while, then noticed I had weak ejection. I bought a new extractor and extractor screws and installed those and the rifle is now perfectly functional. No more jamming of any kind. I don't know if it was the extractor this whole time and I never noticed (or knew) what a 94 extractor should feel/look like, or if it was a combination of a goofy chamber and the extractor, but I can say that after the extractor swap, the rifle is golden.

So, to anybody who experiences a similar problem, I would say change the extractor first (I don't think it was expensive) and then evaluate the situation from there. If you still have the problem, breaking the sharp edge of the chamber may resolve the issue.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Griff »

I'm glad you got the problem fixed... What I noticed in your video was that the rear of the cartridge was jumping up higher than the extractor, which lead me to believe the problem was with the carrier. In watching one of mine, (a post '64 top eject), the rim was never higher than the bottom of the extractor. Which is indicative that the carrier was not dropping as quickly as needed. But, the fact that your's was fixed with an extractor swap. I wonder if maybe yours was a bit short. As all mine the extractor is a bit longer than the ejector.
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Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Post by Cheyenne »

I didn't compare the extractor lengths, unfortunately. I get the sense that the extractor was too stiff or too floppy (or both at various times in the life of the rifle) and was interfering with the case head settling on the correct location of the bolt face. Possibly, if the extractor was too floppy, it was permitting the case head to over travel.
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