Well this sucks

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Bill in Oregon
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Well this sucks

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Seems the new SIG military pistol has some serious issues.

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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Griff »

Ya cain't please all the people all the time... shoulda stuck with the 1911!!
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by wecsoger »

For all the time and money (five years plus, 17 million plus) devoted to this project, there is no reason that the pistol selection group should not have been able to pick something that would have worked perfectly right out of the box. Or shipping container.

Beretta 92 is a good weapon, probably mechanically too complex for .mil use, and hampered by poor performance of 9mm ball ammo

Sig is just as mechanically complex and I regard ability to swap frames, barrels, slides, etc. to different configurations as a minus not a plus

A handgun is just a small, minor fraction of a soldier's or airman's gear. That this project has turned into the elephant that it is, is an embarrassment.

Far as I'm concerned, they could have bought a couple truckloads of Glocks many, many years ago and we wouldn't have had to deal with all this drama.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Bill in Oregon »

I have to agree, Wec. I am not a huge Glock fan but frankly, the things are pretty much bombproof with commercial ball ammo.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by AJMD429 »

I'd have either stuck with the Beretta, or gone to the 1911 for the bigger bullet options, or the Glock if they want to eliminate the open-hammer.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Pisgah »

One aspect I have read in other sources -- not mentioned in this one -- is that the Army is issuing a new hollowpoint round to Special Forces, and this pistol apparently performs well with the hollowpoints. But will ball ammo -- nope. I currently own 7 semiauto handguns in various calibers, and every one runs perfectly with ball or hollowpoint and zero modification was required to achieve this with any of those pistols. But the Army can't get their pistol to do it?

Never believe the government is best at ANYTHING but wasting money...

I am not a big Glock fan, but I'd give a bonus and a medal to the Army procurement officer who just ordered a boatload of 'em and called it good. At least they work...
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by marlinman93 »

The M16 had issues also at first. But at least it functioned flawlessly when it was cleaned properly! I'm always confused when the US Military thinks they need to fix something that wasn't broken? I understand the switch to a DAA semiauto when they dropped the 1911 for the Beretta. But the Berretta wasn't broken.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Stevie »

The Sig issue with 9mm ball ammo doesn't surprise me. I've fired both .40S&W and 9mm full size 320 pistol...The 9mm would leave live ammo in the dirt. It's not really noticeable during shooting....however when you pickup brass and find a live round or two on the ground it gets you to wondering.

What seems to happen is that the next round in the mag slides forward quite a bit as the previous round is chambered. As the fired case ejects it catches and flips the next loaded round out of the gun...the next next round probably helps eject the live round that ends up in the dirt. The owner of the Sig P320 I shot says that Sig first told him it was a 'limp-wrist' during rapid-fire issue...then when pressed about it exchanged magazines which owner said fixed the issue. If you pull the mag after every shot and tuck the next round back into place the phenomenon goes away!.....I would also tend to agree with Sig's customer service rep to a degree that for some reason limp-wristing seems to help cause the 'live ammo eject' issue. But basically it's a crappy magazine issue

With all the .40 caliber goodies installed the same pistol was flawless. You can buy two Glock pistols for probably less money than a Sig P320 with two calibers worth of parts.

The P320 is a comfortable pistol to shoot...but not all that sleek and is pretty thick at least as thick as a medium frame Glock(9mm/.40) and maybe as thick as a .45/10mm Glock.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Blaine »

One of the things that killed the Glock from consideration was lack of an external safety. :roll:
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wecsoger
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by wecsoger »

that killed the Glock from consideration was lack of an external safety

To be more exact, the panel's requirement for an external safety. Which you don't really need, as proven by multiples of ten thousands of cops *every day* carrying Glocks around, with a round chambered

You train for proper techniques with a 'hot' weapon, or go Israeli-carry and leave the chamber empty. Works for them and would really apply to the majority of military carry.

But wait, Glock did cobble together a safety-installed version. Which the panel turned up their nose at, because they wanted something newer and shiny.

I'm not a true Glock fan boi, but did carry one professionally for more'n couple years. It's a basic tool, it works every time, and it's almost completely cop-proof. (grin)

To say that I have contempt for this weapons selection process is being kind.

I have pretty much the same amount of loathing for the same people that decided that army/navy/marines/airforce would get their own, special distinctive uniforms.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by vancelw »

Every Sig I have ever owned (exactly 1) was pure stuff.
Factory shop sent it back still malfunctioning.
2nd trip to factory they were scratching their heads, unable to figure it out.

Sold it....never going back.

Not a fan of plastic pistols...until I tried them. Every Glock and S&W M&P I have/have had worked flawlessly. I still have 6 Glocks and will probably buy a M&P 2.0 at some point to keep.

One thing about Glocks is they are simple, which is very important from an armorers view (as well as logistic/supply)
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by wecsoger »

which is very important from an armorers view

Word.

Lieutenants talk about tactics
Colonels talk about strategy
Generals talk about logistics

Glocks with 38(?) parts are pretty much rock simple on maintenance and swapping parts.

Sigs are nice though. I love the 226. 220 is fantastic too, although the Ruger p90 is cheaper and just as good. The 320 system is still relatively new and has proven to have introduction bugs.

(yes, the drop test was on non-military pistols but you can't hand-wave that away - /no/ weapon should fire when dropped)

Glock did have introduction problems. Of course, most of those were thirty years ago and by now they're a known quantity.

(Glock joke - how can you say 'Glock perfection' when you're not on the *fifth* generation? What is the perfection of perfection?)

And another whiny-butt complaint from me...why Sig?

Ruger makes handguns that are pretty good. And they are an American company. Employing Americans. Maybe an illegal here and there. (grin)

S&W, not one of my favorites makes good handguns also. Oh, right, they're an American company also.

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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Rusty »

Call me silly but I get the feeling the the people at the Defense Dept write their spec so that a certain manufacturer has a distinct advantage from the start. I've heard it said that the Glock is the AK-47 of the pistol world. I wasn't a Glock fan from the start. I've always felt that guns should be made from blue steel and walnut. Once I shot my son's Glock I was shocked by how well they shot. They just work and keep working.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by jeepnik »

I have it on the good authority from two Marines, the 1911 is much superior to Berrettas and Sigs.

Seems they made the same discovery their old man did. The 1911 and .45 acp just plain work.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by .45colt »

I have never been in the military, I don't care much for autos at all. I am a revolver guy at heart. forty years ago My Grandfather gave Me His Colt 1911 that He carried in Europe in WW 1. It's never been pampered in any way, it's now 100 years old. and it shoots every time. No problem. what the military thinks is beyond Me. :shock:
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by buckeyeshooter »

Griff wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:50 am Ya cain't please all the people all the time... shoulda stuck with the 1911!!
Agreed. They use them in several wars rebuild them and they keep going. I would stick with the proven platform.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by KWK »

... and more issues are arsing.
Well, now.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by 1894c »

I've been a Glock fanboy since 1996, the LE Agency I serve has been carrying them since 1998, but we were allowed a second choice, which is the Sig Sauer P320. So I bought one and have been shooting the snot out of it for the last year (4,000+ rounds). I've had no issues at all, and in some cases, I shoot it better than any Glock. I really like the modular design, because I can change it from a Compact Carry to a Compact. Plus, this Sig is as easy to work on as any Glock. If this weapon is having issues I'm not surprised because when my Agency switched over to the Glock Gen4 we had a lot of issues until Glock fixed it--and Sig will fix the P320 as well...

By the way, Glock did put an external safety on their prototype for the military trials--here's a pic... :)
glock-19-pistol-1800.jpg
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Sixgun »

30-30 wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:53 pm I've been a Glock fanboy since 1996, the LE Agency I serve has been carrying them since 1998, but we were allowed a second choice, which is the Sig Sauer P320. So I bought one and have been shooting the snot out of it for the last year (4,000+ rounds). I've had no issues at all, and in some cases, I shoot it better than any Glock. I really like the modular design, because I can change it from a Compact Carry to a Compact. Plus, this Sig is as easy to work on as any Glock. If this weapon is having issues I'm not surprised because when my Agency switched over to the Glock Gen4 we had a lot of issues until Glock fixed it--and Sig will fix the P320 as well...

By the way, Glock did put an external safety on their prototype for the military trials--here's a pic... :)
glock-19-pistol-1800.jpg
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by 1894c »

SIXGUN -- thank you. I should mention that the majority of my 4,000+ was a mix of 115gr/124gr hardball (Winchester White box, American Eagle, Fiocchi, S&B, and Blazer Brass). I also should mention that our early Glock Gen4's in .40S&W & 9mm had issues with extractors, ejectors, and main-springs, which Glock sorted out. I have a Nephew who is a Captain with the 101st and he has been issued a Sig P320 and really likes it, hasn't mentioned any issues when I talked to him last... :)
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Stevie »

Yeh..I think Sig will get it all sorted out as well. And as 30-30 reported Glock has the ability to provide a manual safety beyond the trigger lever. I think the Philippines had Glock design a manual safety like decades ago for whichever guv agency ordered G17 pistols.

If I recall in the 1980's US pistol tests Glock failed in part because the slide could come off when the plastic pistol was launched into a wall with some force.

Then too you never really know how many and what make of pistols the Army might aquire. Sig has supplied the military quantities of handguns before. I would not doubt that Beretta will still sell M92 series handguns to the gooberment. I mean really?....Wasn't it the Marines just used-up a bunch of Colt 1911 style pistols and turned them in?...The M45 or whatever? My son just had to have one of those and spent like $1700 to get himself a Colt M45 rail-gun civilian version of whatever the Marines used(or still use)
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by rodeo kid »

Well, as an old fogey I have always been a revolver guy except for my beloved Browning Hi Power. But in the last few years I have tried to modernize. So I have a few polymer pistols. One of which is a Sig P320 in .357Sig. It shoots like a ball of fire and no problems so far. My H&K VP40 fits my hand a little better. They both shoot just fine as do my other 2, a Springfield XDs and a S&W m&p VTAC. I can honestly say none of these have had any problem whatsoever. But then I am a fanatic about cleaning and have always cleaned every firearm I own every time I fire them. I have pals who think I am crazy because I actually enjoy cleaning firearms. Ah, there is nothing like looking down a nice, pristine barrel after you are done a cleaning. God Bless.🇺🇸
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by marlinman93 »

Glocks are known as "the safest gun you'll ever shoot yourself with" in the law enforcement community. If you look at the number of documented accidental shootings by officers carrying Glocks, you'll understand that quote. I have a friend who sells them to law enforcement and the quote came from him. Everyone admits the real issue is not pointing a gun towards your body, but sometimes that happens in a highly amped up situation. So I totally understand the military wanting an external safety on a gun.

"Glock uses the marketing term “Safe Action” to describe its firing-pin system, but the truth is that Glocks are accident-prone. They contributed to more than 120 accidental discharges in the Washington Metropolitan Police Department from 1988 to 1998. Anecdotes of increased accidental shootings have followed the pistol for more than 30 years wherever it has been adopted by police officers and citizens alike."

"The underlying problem with these pistols is a short trigger pull and the lack of an external safety. In real-world encounters, a short trigger pull can be lethal, in part because a significant percentage of law enforcement officers — some experts say as high as 20% — put their finger on the trigger of their weapons when under stress. According to firearms trainers, most officers are completely unaware of their tendency to do this and have a hard time believing it, even when they're shown video evidence from training exercises."
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by 1894c »

marlinman93 wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:11 pm Glocks are known as "the safest gun you'll ever shoot yourself with" in the law enforcement community. If you look at the number of documented accidental shootings by officers carrying Glocks, you'll understand that quote.

I APOLOGIZE FOR GETTING US OFF-MESSAGE... :(

marlinman93 -- I really hate to admit this, but this quote is truer than many in LE want to admit. I stopped carrying a Glock 26 as a BUG, and have transitioned over to a Ruger LCR .357mag for that very reason--I had an incident a couple of years ago that caught my attention big time. I love the Glock/SIG P320, I really like striker-fired pistols, but I've noticed that there is a growing trend towards a DA/SA auto, unfortunately, there are few choices (I did pick up a Beretta PX4 Storm Compact to evaluate). Google
"appendix carry fatalities at gun ranges" or "Police accidental shooting with Glocks" ... :O

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Re: Well this sucks

Post by vancelw »

None of my Glocks have ever gone off by themselves....
Neither has anyone else's. I have cop friends who dislike Glocks because of this malady/myth.
I tell them they just need to learn to stay away from slow learners.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Bill in Oregon »

The Glock AD issue is related to how little force is required to pull the "safe action" trigger vs. the double action trigger of a Smith or Colt service revolver.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by marlinman93 »

vancelw wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:38 pm None of my Glocks have ever gone off by themselves....
Neither has anyone else's. I have cop friends who dislike Glocks because of this malady/myth.
I tell them they just need to learn to stay away from slow learners.
Tell me your definition of myth? Because when I see documented cases of officers accidentally discharging their Glock, I can't figure out where your "myth" statement applies? I understand if you like your Glock, but don't pretend these are myths.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by GunnyMack »

Back in 91-94 while I was at TSJC in the smith program one student was the son of a Glock employee. We got all the testing info. Most of us were carrying one version or another and we replicated the glock testing as best we could.
My G23 is a 1st gen and it was put through the wringer- frozen in a bucket of water, filled with sand, mud, I shot it underwater( no hollow points please)( it worked flawlessly) yadda yadda. I've since done 1 update to it and it has not once failed to work. My 23 also survived 1 thing Glock never tested for!- Labrador spit! My lab at the time would not pee/poop without something in her mouth. Got to the point is unlock the door of the house, unholster my 23, hand it off to her & let her out. When she was done I'd reholster. Hmm, she never had an AD( no I didn't let her have it HOT)!

We also had a Beretta armorers course. The guy fr Beretta told us flat out that the M92 had a life span, 5000 round count the slides would part company from the slide due to stress cracking... not what I would want to have in my hands to depend on to save my life! Beretta was sitting on thousands of slides waiting for replacement orders...
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by OldWin »

I don't worship at the altar of Glock. I own 2, a 19 and a 21SF. That said, facts are facts.
I have zero experience with the Sig. One thing is for sure, it has a long way to go to match Glocks proven reliability.
Can you find Glocks with issues? Yup. But put it in perspective of the sheer numbers in service and its impressively small.
I love the 1911. But if I had to bet my 401k on a handgun, walk into any gunshop and buy one that would run non stop off the shelf. I'd still bet on a Glock. Thats playing the best odds.

To me, the safety thing is the same. With the amount in service, its a miracle there aren't MORE negligent discharges. Yup. NEGLIGENT.
If you know how the weapon operates, it is up to YOU to make it safe.
If you load 6 chambers on your SAA and it falls out of your holster and blows a hole in your liver, they will call you an idiot at your funeral cause you "should have known better".
Re-holster your Glock without paying attention, blow your knee out, and "it's the guns fault" and "a poor design".
You could make a totally safe handgun. But would you really still have a handgun?
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by jeepnik »

Stevie wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:54 am Yeh..I think Sig will get it all sorted out as well.
Let's just hope it doesn't take as long and cost as many lives as the thing M16.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by piller »

Back when the Beretta was chosen, it was not the firearm of choice with the Marines and parts of the Army. Ruger's entry was preferred by the Marines and the Army Treadheads because it was as accurate and much more rugged. The Beretta was chosen before the trials were conducted due to the ones who had a say in the matter were financially involved. Politics! :evil: I have an old Ruger P85, and it functions flawlessly if I do a little bit of maintenance on the magazines every 2 or 3 thousand rounds. I have a Glock 22 which does just as well. Glocks have all the sex appeal of Phyllis Diller, but are as reliable as an International Harvester motor.

I am guessing that someone had already chosen the Sig before the tests wete carried out.

The Springfield, the M1 carbine, M1 Garand, M2 Browning, M1911, and several others had the bugs worked out before adoption as far as I know. OK, the M1903 did get changed from 30-03 to 30-06 caliber, but that seems to be an improvement in performance rather than a design flaw.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by J Buck »

Well, first off, I am not a professional. But I do have an opinion. I have owned exactly 5 1911's in my 55 years. I kept the Combat Commander because that is all I needed. Been tinkered with a bit, but accurate and reliable.
I bought my first Glock 19 back in '93 and was impressed as I could be for a plastic pistol right out of the box. Simple, reliable with anything I would buy off the shelf and was my main CC until I was out of town once and the house was broken into and gun was stolen. (before I bought a safe) I recently picked up a Glock 43 after much research on similar sized 9mm, and while I'm not exactly "in love" with it yet, I feel like it will do what I need on the occasion so I carry it. There are beaucoup of Glocks out there in holsters,waistbands, truck doors, bags and nightstands and many, many people trust their life to them. Our government is notorious for wasting our dollars, I just can't wrap my head around this choice, but then I couldn't when they chose the M9. Wait, does that make me a Glock fan....?
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Old Ironsights »

wecsoger wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:07 pm ...
Ruger makes handguns that are pretty good. And they are an American company. Employing Americans. Maybe an illegal here and there. (grin)...
This.

Back in '86 when I went Active, I had a brand new Ruger P85 that stomped all over the Beretta 92. I NEVER understood why they went with that stupid open slide dirt catcher (that proceeded to break from lack of slide mass and poor metallurgy).

Never had a single problem with the Ruger P series except for it being a full-size gun.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Old Ironsights »

30-30 wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:54 pm
marlinman93 wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:11 pm Glocks are known as "the safest gun you'll ever shoot yourself with" in the law enforcement community. If you look at the number of documented accidental shootings by officers carrying Glocks, you'll understand that quote.

I APOLOGIZE FOR GETTING US OFF-MESSAGE... :(

marlinman93 -- I really hate to admit this, but this quote is truer than many in LE want to admit. I stopped carrying a Glock 26 as a BUG, and have transitioned over to a Ruger LCR .357mag for that very reason--I had an incident a couple of years ago that caught my attention big time. I love the Glock/SIG P320, I really like striker-fired pistols, but I've noticed that there is a growing trend towards a DA/SA auto, unfortunately, there are few choices (I did pick up a Beretta PX4 Storm Compact to evaluate). Google
"appendix carry fatalities at gun ranges" or "Police accidental shooting with Glocks" ... :O

http://www.gunssavelife.com/appendix-ca ... arry-mode/
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la ... story.html
Yep.

Give a Glock to a tanker-bar-breaking Private or one of the rock stupid officers I had to take 1911s away from and you are going to have NDs all over the place.
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Re: Well this sucks

Post by Old Ironsights »

piller wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:11 am Back when the Beretta was chosen, it was not the firearm of choice with the Marines and parts of the Army. Ruger's entry was preferred by the Marines and the Army Treadheads because it was as accurate and much more rugged. The Beretta was chosen before the trials were conducted due to the ones who had a say in the matter were financially involved. Politics! :evil: I have an old Ruger P85, and it functions flawlessly if I do a little bit of maintenance on the magazines every 2 or 3 thousand rounds. I have a Glock 22 which does just as well. Glocks have all the sex appeal of Phyllis Diller, but are as reliable as an International Harvester motor.

I am guessing that someone had already chosen the Sig before the tests wete carried out.

The Springfield, the M1 carbine, M1 Garand, M2 Browning, M1911, and several others had the bugs worked out before adoption as far as I know. OK, the M1903 did get changed from 30-03 to 30-06 caliber, but that seems to be an improvement in performance rather than a design flaw.
+1

Another thing, and my biggest beef with Glocks (and most striker guns) other than Glock Ugly is... no second strike capability.

Hard primers happen, and the ability to do a quick second strike without having to go through a FTF manual of arms is huge. (Only striker gun I know of that fixed this problem is the Taurus Millennium series...)
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