25-35

elmo123 · Post by **elmo123** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:15 pm

Has anyone had experience relining a 1894 barrel in 25-35 with a 25 caliber liner?

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:27 pm

I've considered it but have never called Redmans to see if it's possible. Mine is very dark but still shoots a good group so I'm leaving it alone.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:58 pm

Don't see why that would not work but the cartridge guides would need to be changed. ----6

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:43 am

Are you looking to change caliber or is it already a 25-35? You just want a new bore? Should work fine, but I've never done a re bore. I know it works fine on rimfires. I have heard large bores can be done.
If not changing calibers, I doubt any of the internals will need to be changed or worked.
Be sure you get a smith that has done this before! It's fairly easy but you really need to know what you're doing!

elmo123 · Post by **elmo123** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:38 am

I am just looking to reline it and keep it a 25-35.

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:51 pm

It should work!

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:53 pm

I had an old Winchester 1894 in .25-35 with a very poor bore. I wanted to get it relined so contacted John Taylor in Washington state, who came highly recommended for the job. Unfortunately the cost would be over $400, which given what I had paid for the rifle would put me into it for too much money, so I sold the rifle. Bottom line is, you certainly can get your .25-35 rifle lined to restore the bore.

Shasta

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:33 pm

A local gunsmith around here will reline a barrel and ream it from the breech, stopping short of the muzzle. When he is done, there is no sign of the relining, as the liner is hidden by the original muzzle on the rifle due to that process. It works well and shows no sign of the reline...

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:03 pm

Sounds like that would be the way to go.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:12 pm

Shrapnel wrote:A local gunsmith around here will reline a barrel and ream it from the breech, stopping short of the muzzle. When he is done, there is no sign of the relining, as the liner is hidden by the original muzzle on the rifle due to that process. It works well and shows no sign of the reline...

OK.....but what does he do for a crown when the antique guns most always have a crown right to the muzzle...maybe .020. Besides, if he puts the liner right up to the part of the old muzzle, there's going to be some kind of a "step" whether it's reduced or over which always leads to some kind of an accuracy issue.

Most likely it would work for a gun where the accuracy is in the 3 moa range and velocities are kept between 9-11.----6

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:22 pm

Sixgun wrote:
Shrapnel wrote:A local gunsmith around here will reline a barrel and ream it from the breech, stopping short of the muzzle. When he is done, there is no sign of the relining, as the liner is hidden by the original muzzle on the rifle due to that process. It works well and shows no sign of the reline...

OK.....but what does he do for a crown when the antique guns most always have a crown right to the muzzle...maybe .020. Besides, if he puts the liner right up to the part of the old muzzle, there's going to be some kind of a "step" whether it's reduced or over which always leads to some kind of an accuracy issue.

Most likely it would work for a gun where the accuracy is in the 3 moa range and velocities are kept between 9-11.----6

So you have done this and know that it won't work?

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:41 pm

Shrapnel wrote:So you have done this and know that it won't work?

No, I have not. I've also never poured 60 grains of Bullseye in a 50-100-450 Winchester case and topped it with a 450 gr. bullet for the sake of experimentation.

Common and proved knowledge is known that the crown area of a muzzle is very important for accuracy. So that means if the gunsmith drilled a hole up until that last 1/4", installed the liner without "freeboring" the area immediately after the "connection" that there is going to be a mechanical imperfection that's going to affect the bullet leaving the muzzle in one way or another. Like I said in my last post concerning this matter, it would probably not affect slow moving cast bullets in the velocity range of 9-1100 fps to any drastic degree. If I was paying someone $3-500 for a reline, I'd want it done right and besides, why hide the connecting line at the muzzle which in my experience has taken a magnifying glass to detect? That type of work you describe borderlines on fraud especially if a deluxe 1886 Winchester had a ring in the bore which would cut the value down from 5-8 g's to 3-4 but with a nice fresh liner in it and then go fire a few BP's and let it sit for a month.....mmmmm.....so yes, the only reason for doing a reline like that would be fraud.

Go ask Mike V. if he would have a '74 sidehammer done like that.

I've shot and experimented with enough old rifles to know that very worn crowns and rings (bulges from obstructions) that are within the last couple of inches of the muzzle leads to accuracy results that are 3" at the very best at 100 meters...usually 6-10" with keyholes.

Have a nice day and a Merry Christmas!----6

sureshot · Post by **sureshot** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:50 pm

No, I have not. I've also never poured 60 grains of Bullseye in a 50-100-450 Winchester case and topped it with a 450 gr. bullet for the sake of experimentation

I see you've heard how "Shrapnel" got his nickname.

Steve

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:51 pm

sureshot wrote:
No, I have not. I've also never poured 60 grains of Bullseye in a 50-100-450 Winchester case and topped it with a 450 gr. bullet for the sake of experimentation
I see you've heard how "Shrapnel" got his nickname.

Steve

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:04 am

No, I have not. I've also never poured 60 grains of Bullseye in a 50-100-450 Winchester case and topped it with a 450 gr. bullet for the sake of experimentation

This is kind of reasoning that leads to the constant criticism of unfamiliar territory. If you were an accomplished gunsmith and had tried several times to make the relining work and failed to do so, you would have a point. This particular gunsmith has done it many times with success. How he does it is obviously beyond your skill or understanding, but because you have doubt, doesn't mean it won't work.

I believe Thomas Edison tried several hundred times before he found the right filament to make a light bulb glow. Thank goodness he didn't limit his thinking or listen to people like you before he just gave up.

Mainehunter · Post by **Mainehunter** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:42 am

From reading other forums in the past John Taylor at Taylor Machine has done relining similar to what Shrapnel described with success. There was a gunsmith up in the Allagash wilderness in northern Maine who did an excellent job on my friends Savage 1899 303 Savage. He relined it the same way as stated above and it's shooting just as good or even better as it did before. It all depends on the gunsmith and if he's done that type of work before.

Mainehunter

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:51 am

Maybe so...and if a Smith is talented enough. I've spent my gun years always paying attention to the muzzle and crown area because I do know what happens when a bullet is disrupted on that last inch or so. If I was betting on it, I'd say no but if it works, so be it.

I still don't see the need for the extra work. Like I said earlier, on the ones I have had done, it takes a magnifying glass to see the line.----6

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:59 am

Crown is the important part for sure.
What also concerns me is getting the original rifling and liner riffling in proper alignment. I know a1/4" jump isn't much if alignment is off but could still defeat the accuracy potential. Is the liner crowned and the original free bored? That kind of defeats the purpose as now it's visible there is no riffling at the muzzle.

I have seen liners done,but I never have done one. Six is right that if done correctly the line is not noticeable.

I had, HAD an extremely accurate barrel ruined by junk ammo on a match 22. While testing every load I could , I had a squib, and didn't realize it had stuck in the barrel in a rapid fire string. Needless to say the accuracy went from bug holes to inches.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:27 pm

Gunny...that's what I said earlier.....the area after the liner has to be freebored.

Maybe I'm looking into this too much....like...what's the reason other than to hide the liner work when it's so much easier and surer to work to drill all the way out?

Well, that's what's great about America....we can all pretty much do as we please.

---6

elmo123 · Post by **elmo123** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:14 pm

I would think the method mentioned would also prevent the liner from being pushed out of the bore. The liners Brownell's has listed is for the lower velocity calibers, 25-20, 38-40 & 44-40 and as long as the liner has a good crown the end of the bore at the muzzle could be oversize and it wouldn't matter. My rifle was originally 26" that somewhere along the way was shortened to 20". It's not a collector grade rifle but the only 25-35 I own. I am making a new butt stock for it without the crescent butt plate.

What is the name of the Gunsmith that can reline my barrel from the chamber end?

Thanks,

Mike

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:27 pm

elmo123 wrote:I would think the method mentioned would also prevent the liner from being pushed out of the bore. The liners Brownell's has listed is for the lower velocity calibers, 25-20, 38-40 & 44-40 and as long as the liner has a good crown the end of the bore at the muzzle could be oversize and it wouldn't matter. My rifle was originally 26" that somewhere along the way was shortened to 20". It's not a collector grade rifle but the only 25-35 I own. I am making a new butt stock for it without the crescent butt plate.

What is the name of the Gunsmith that can reline my barrel from the chamber end?

Thanks,

Mike

Rocky's Gun Works (406)599-5907

elmo123 · Post by **elmo123** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:27 pm

Thanks and Merry Christmas

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:51 pm

Sixgun wrote:Gunny...that's what I said earlier.....the area after the liner has to be freebored.

Maybe I'm looking into this too much....like...what's the reason other than to hide the liner work when it's so much easier and surer to work to drill all the way out?

Well, that's what's great about America....we can all pretty much do as we please. ---6

Apology accepted.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:11 pm

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't get it, and I've seen liner jobs and seen many damaged or worn crowns and repaired them.
All it takes is the slightest wear or damage from a cleaning rod or impact at the muzzle to trash accuracy.
A crown has to be perfect. You could counterbore the last bit of original barrel but the concentricity would need to be spot on and I'd think difficult to keep clean at the step.
Also, the counterbore would be as or more noticeable as a liner.
Not trying to dump on anyone, I just don't get how it would work.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:57 pm

http://www.longrangehunting.com/article ... rown-1.php

This may be of some interest...

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:26 pm

[quote="Shrapnel"]http://www.longrangehunting.com/article ... rown-1.php

This may be of some interest...[/quote

Very good read!!
Like a lot of things in life the only thing set in stone is taxes & death!

ollogger

elmo123 · Post by **elmo123** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:27 pm

I have an 1892 made in 1896 in 38-40 that has a barrel that looks like the inside of a rusted sewer pipe and the rifling is very faint/missing at the end of the muzzle and this rifle shoots 2 1/2" groups at 50's. I had a 98 Mauser in 8mm that had about 6 inches of faint rifling just in front of the chamber but the rest of the bore looked great and it was made for .323 bullets. I could not hit a 4'x4' target at 25 yards and if I was lucky enough to hit the paper the bullets keyholed. If I would have had to guess which one would be more accurate without firing them it would have been the Mauser based upon the bore and crown conditions. Just my personal experiences that have contradicted what I have read over the years.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:50 pm

Shrapnel wrote:
Sixgun wrote:Gunny...that's what I said earlier.....the area after the liner has to be freebored.

Maybe I'm looking into this too much....like...what's the reason other than to hide the liner work when it's so much easier and surer to work to drill all the way out?

Well, that's what's great about America....we can all pretty much do as we please. ---6
Apology accepted.

Number 1....I never apologized.....you have your rifles relined the way you like them and I'll continue to recommend to the people on this board to do it "the old fashioned way"

Number 2...the only way I will accept that article by this Anderson guy is if you let me center punch the crown on your newly acquired Kennedy rifle and if the accuracy deteriorates I'll pay to to have the rifle chucked in a lathe and have .050 taken off and re crowned.

That guy Anderson is pretty much out of touch with real world experience. Got to figure, if someone told you pelosi tastes good, would you eat it?

As I've always respected Mike V.'s writings, why don't you run it by him. If I showed that article to the guys at the Ridgway Rifle Club who do the 1,000 yard Varmint Benchrest game, I'd get laughed out and told never to return.

----6

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:14 pm

Sixgun wrote:
Shrapnel wrote:
Sixgun wrote:Gunny...that's what I said earlier.....the area after the liner has to be freebored.

Maybe I'm looking into this too much....like...what's the reason other than to hide the liner work when it's so much easier and surer to work to drill all the way out?

Well, that's what's great about America....we can all pretty much do as we please. ---6
Apology accepted.

Number 1....I never apologized.....you have your rifles relined the way you like them and I'll continue to recommend to the people on this board to do it "the old fashioned way"

Number 2...the only way I will accept that article by this Anderson guy is if you let me center punch the crown on your newly acquired Kennedy rifle and if the accuracy deteriorates I'll pay to to have the rifle chucked in a lathe and have .050 taken off and re crowned. :

As I've always respected Mike V.'s writings, why don't you run it by him. If I showed that article to the guys at the Ridgway Rifle Club who do the 1,000 yard Varmint Benchrest game, I'd get laughed out and told never to return. ----6

Number 1, of course you didn't, I was just giving you benefit of the doubt.

I don't have to run anything by anyone. You wouldn't accept anything contrary to your view on any subject. The article I referenced shows more contradiction to your opinion which is based on hearsay and little real life experience.

What I have done with Mike Venturino or any other gunwriter for that matter will eclipse anything you will ever hope to accomplish, yet you want to defend your limited experience and criticize anything I say. I really don't care what you think, I have seen and been involved with more real life experiences than you will ever know.

Laugh about blown up guns, make all the comments you can muster and you still gain no stature here or in the real world. If you weren't so petty about this subject and did more research before you made your critical analysis, you might find out that I am not the only person to blow up a rifle, but one of the few to get written about. You might also find out about how many magazine article and books that I have been involved with and again maybe, just maybe, realize that I have done a little bit of shooting and other gun related activities that do actually have merit.

Explanations are wasted on small minded people, I leave that up to you to determine where you fit in this or any discussion you find not consistent with your opinion.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:40 pm

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:15 pm

My apologies to the OP and anyone following this discourse. The intent of this thread was a question about relining a barrel, nothing more. Giving some advice was all I did, no mention of any of my guns or my net worth, you brought that up. 9000 posts and you rate yourself an expert.

Others have posted with similar experience, you continue with your rant. I am sure you are convinced, and 9000 posts qualifies that. I called no one any names, you decide who you are, not me.

Relining a rifle from the breech with the liner blind from the muzzle is a way to reline a barrel not the only way, that is all I said and I stand by it.

Bronco · Post by **Bronco** » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:56 am

Howdy,

If I may carefully tippy toe into this love fest

It seems that by putting the barrel liner just short of the muzzle, a small minimal amount, is a process that is reversible if it does not work out to satisfaction. Just shorten the barrel a tad and recrown. Where as having the liner go all the way to the muzzle, the is nothing that can be done after the work is done!! Or there may be, I don't know of any I can think to mention at this time!
It is good to have choices !

Now back to our regularly scheduled program

John

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