I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...

[AJMD429]

http://franklin-armory.myshopify.com/pr ... igger-pack

[Chuck 100 yd]

Just the thing for flock shooting Deer, no?

[J Miller]

OK, I guess I'm missing something. What is the problem with this? I looks to me as if it's just an action kit.
What am I missing?


Joe

[Sixgun]

Years ago I shot a .22 semi automatic and a German G-41 8mm. that had the alternations done to them the same as this "Binary trigger". You fire a round with a pull of the trigger and it fires again when you release it. I had no problem firing it to the tune of about what a full auto BAR sounds like...as in speed of firing.

I'm surprised this thing is legal------6

[fordwannabe]

Years ago I had an AT that worked the same way.Trigger pin backed out just enough that it would fire en the trigger was pulled and another round when released. The bad part was I was shooting in my friends back yard no big deal except his next door neighbor was the Bally Pa police department. OOPS. A small e clip kept it from backing out accidentally ever again. Accidentally being a key word.

[AJMD429]

OK, I guess I'm missing something. What is the problem with this? I looks to me as if it's just an action kit.
What am I missing?

I know that everyone wants a "as close as they can get to a full auto without bothering with a stamp", but I think that a firearm that fires when you release the trigger is an accident-waiting-to-happen.

Sure, those of us who are 'gunnies' would get the concept, learn it, and probably use it pretty safely, but - next time you are at a public range, take a look at the variety of AR-shooters there - goofy teenagers showing off to one another, nervous moms shooting for the first time, and just regular dudes who've put 100,000 rounds downrange from their AR's over the years - AR's that they are used to, and that only fired when you pulled the trigger, but did NOT fire again when you released it...

Despite all the mantra of keeping the muzzle downrange, and so on, I've never been at a range for more than an hour without seeing someone briefly violate some safety rule. Thankfully there are multiple, simple, easy-to-remember, and overlapping safety rules, so despite the many 'little' breaches that happen when shooters congregate, accidental shootings are very rare unless someone is blatantly violating more than one safety rule.

Still.....when the action needed to fire the next round is so totally different than what other guns have used for the past couple hundred years, and especially when it involves letting off pressure on the trigger, I don't think it is safe. Someone who is shooting but needs to pause because someone appears downrange or whatever, is going to tend to do the 'natural' thing, which is (as one range poster said which I'm paraphrasing) "...If signaled by the range officer, immediately remove your finger from the trigger, and take your finger out of the trigger guard, then point the gun in a safe direction, and wait for further instructions..."

I get it that people want to 'trick' the NFA rules, and I don't like those rules much myself, but other than as a fun toy, I don't think any of us will realistically be in a situation where an ordinary semi-automatic isn't enough so we actually need the 'binary-trigger' thing. (...and yes, I know it's not about "need"...). Those of us who are actually in enough 'tactical' situations to take advantage of the greater rate-of-fire, are likely professionals (....and no, I'm not one....) who would be better served by the tried-and-true select-fire or three-shot-burst mode of a real 'NFA' weapon, which I am betting they would prefer to have in-hand versus this binary-trigger system.

If I had a bunch of extra money for a gun-toy, I suppose I'd think about getting one of these - for about two seconds - then I'd spend it on another boring revolver, boring pistol, boring shotgun, boring EBR, or [of course non-boring] levergun...

[FWiedner]

There are plenty of guns out there that are designed to function on trigger release rather than trigger pull, and there are also plenty of people who know how they work and how to use them.

It's legal. If you can't use one, don't buy it.

If you're basing your negative opinion of the product on your imagination of what other people might do with it, vote Democrat. You'll fit right in.

[1894cfan]

About 20 to 30 years ago some guy came up with an idea to do that with the Ruger Mini14, he took a bit of barilium copper with just enough thickness and stuck it between the main sear and secondary sear which spread them apart just enough to allow it to fire when the trigger is pulled and again when the trigger is released. He even went to the BATF and got a clearance letter from them saying it was all legal. He called the Intense-a-Fire.

[guido4198]

Release triggers are VERY common in ATA Trapshooting and Flyer shooting circles.
I've used that design for several decades in various configurations (single release, double release, release-pull) and in numerous competition firearms.
Never had an accident, never saw anyone else have an accident.
It's all about knowing what you have, and your own limitations.
This is NO big deal, from a safety standpoint so long as it works AS INTENDED wherever it's employed.

[AJMD429]

It's all about knowing what you have, and your own limitations.

That's my point - there are LOTS of new shooters out there the past decade (thanks to the Gun-Salesman-in-Chief we elected ), and whereas twenty years ago if I went to a range maybe one out of ten people there was a 'new shooter' and tended to fumble with their gun, or do things a bit carelessly, the last couple times I was at a range, at least half of the shooters were people who were barely familiar with the mechanism of the gun they were handling. I saw several instances of things like someone asking a nearby stranger how to 'un-jam' a gun (that wasn't jammed - just wasn't chambered so it wouldn't fire), or other basic things. The person answering the question may be giving an 'answer' for a different type of gun than the shooter is even using.

I'm sure there are lots of experienced gun owners out there who have all sorts of unusual-style firearms they know perfectly how to handle, but there are way more newbies out there whose first experience with one of these binary triggers might yield a dangerous surprise.

Fortunately the receiver is 'loudly' labeled so even someone who picks up their friends gun who he or she bought used from someone else, will hopefully get a warning.

Anyway - I'm not being a Democrat and saying "...there needs to be a law..." - but I am saying this is kind of like when someone loads up 500 rounds of "Ruger-only" 45-70 loads and they wind up in a garage-sale years later. Experienced shooters won't just stick those loads in grandpa's antique rifle, but inexperienced ones might. No need for a "law", but just like in the latter case, careful and specific labeling is needed as a precaution, the binary-trigger guns certainly need labeled accordingly..........THIS outfit is selling drop-in trigger units, and odds are they're going to wind up in a gun that isn't plainly marked like the complete receivers they sell.

I'd be willing to bet that if I installed one of these triggers in a 'normal' AR-15, and handed it to someone to shoot without specifically instructing them about it, they WOULD have an unintentional discharge. I've seen the way people pass-around guns to try at shooting ranges, and how often the shooter isn't familiar with a slide-release, a particular safety, or whatever, and has to figure it out on-the-fly; figuring out a binary-trigger that way could be dangerous.

The other 'almost-full-auto' gimmicks I've seen all were pretty obvious - crank-handles, long add-on levers that bump the trigger, and spring-equipped stocks that would only work when the gun was shouldered, so are way less to be operated 'inadvertently'.

No law needed - but if I want faster-than-regular-semi-auto fire, I will man-up and get a full-auto with the pretty little over-priced ATF stamp.

[J Miller]

Fire when you pull the trigger, and then fire again when you release the trigger? Ummmm, NO - No way in the world would I want a gun like that. It's a dangerous idea with no legit use in my minds way of looking at things.
How do you shoot just one round? Only load one? That feature could get someone killed. I'm with AJMD on this one.

Joe

[marlinman93]

Well I can see how someone who probably shouldn't own a semiauto gun anyway might get into trouble with the system. But I wouldn't consider it "creepy". Just not for everyone, anymore than an AR15 is not for everyone.
I can also see how the device in the hands of an idiot might burn up a barrel with the increased rate of fire, and not controlling yourself.
I'm not into AR15 or similar guns, but those who own them seem to be having fun with them, and this looks like another way to have fun. Beyond that, I don't really see any practical use for it.

[Grizz]

Fire when you pull the trigger, and then fire again when you release the trigger? Ummmm, NO - No way in the world would I want a gun like that. It's a dangerous idea with no legit use in my minds way of looking at things.
How do you shoot just one round? Only load one? That feature could get someone killed. I'm with AJMD on this one.

Joe

well, it's simple really.

YOU READ THE DIRECTIONS !!

the directions clearly state that there is a THREE POSITION SAFETY

position one: no fire

position two: regular semiauto

position three: binary fire

WHAT'S SO HARD ABOUT THAT?

and Doc just invalidated his entire libertarian stance by a distinctly non-libertarian streak that resembles "liberty is what I say it is", OR perhaps a "public libertarian" v.s. a "private libertarian"?

I'm calling ya on it Doc, but with a smile knowing how many foibles I have . . . ,

[Griff]

I like it. And I avoid PUBLIC ranges for the very reasoning you present Doc, even single shots run by idiots are dangerous. Grizz is right...

[cas]

I've seen a couple people comment that they bought one and it's a turd. (Relative to the price anyone)


The only thing I know about it was from watching one of their comparison videos and I kept thinking "Look how slow he's shooting "without" it. And the "with it" clip, I can shoot faster than that without it?"

[AJMD429]

I'm calling ya on it Doc, but with a smile knowing how many foibles I have . . . ,

No....I didn't say "there outta be a law....", I just said it creeped me out. "Impractical Range Toy" in my opinion. Probably not dangerous in the hands of safe shooters who read directions....but if I were at a public range [seldom am I due to reasons others have shared], and I saw one of those, I'd pack up and leave.

I also know how much the media will dramatize it ANY time ANY type of firearm is involved in an accident, and uses it to further their agenda.

So I hope the folks who install these triggers in their AR's are very careful with them...!

[Bullard4075]

They came for the handguns. I don't shoot handguns so I didn't say anything.
They came for the semiautos. I don't shoot semiautos so I didn't say anything.
They came for the rifles. I don't shoot rifles so I didn't say anything.
Then they came for my shotgun. What do I say?

[Grizz]

I'm calling ya on it Doc, but with a smile knowing how many foibles I have . . . ,

No....I didn't say "there outta be a law....", I just said it creeped me out. "Impractical Range Toy" in my opinion. Probably not dangerous in the hands of safe shooters who read directions....but if I were at a public range [seldom am I due to reasons others have shared], and I saw one of those, I'd pack up and leave.

I also know how much the media will dramatize it ANY time ANY type of firearm is involved in an accident, and uses it to further their agenda.

So I hope the folks who install these triggers in their AR's are very careful with them...!

yeah, you did add those caveats. how do you feel about full auto with the tax stamp, you mentioned that. does the law about the tax stamp make those handling the fa firearms safer, less likely to have an accidental discharge, or less likely to shoot someone with it? why doesn't it creep you out if someone pays the government for the license, but it does creep you out if someone can achieve a high rate of fire without the tax stamp? how is a G3 with a tax stamp safer than a semi auto version?

there is a THREE POSITION SAFETY. the device will not accidently fire in binary mode.

I think it might be very useful to law enforcement, guards, and home bodies who are in the path of the thug nation, who, by the way, won't have any scruples about using the device against you. so they will have suppressing fire and you will be flanked. I'd say it is far more than a "range toy".

as to public ranges, I agree with you. I go to the public access national forest to find some isolation from the loonytic fringe.

but I disagree about the behavior you witness of guns being handed to people who don't know what to do with them. that is the responsibility of the owner of the gun. he is liable for it wherever it is, and is responsible to assure himself that someone can handle the gun safely. if I hand a gun to someone I make certain to safe it and make certain that the person holding it knows how to handle it safely. even this didn't safety the life of the sniper in Tx.

AND: it is the job of the RO to determine if there are unsafe practices and check them before they evolve. that's the part of your post that creeps me out.

the two gun ranges I shoot at in Tx and one in Va all have eagle-eyed ROs who stop infractions instantly. so I suggest you may be able to find a Tx-like gun range where you live that will be safer than the streets at least.

[FWiedner]

There is always a newb at the range that needs to have someone more experienced point out a potential safety issue for discussion.

Maybe it's different at a public range, but it seems to me that a polite mention of a bad habit or action would be nothing to take offense about. I mean... Everybody wants to be safe... Guns, right?

I'd be surprised if someone at one of the ranges I go to would be offended. More likely, they'd get agitated that they did whatever they did.

That said, there's also usually some "more experienced" yoyo that nobody can please, and that would be me...