New Henry, new to forum

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:00 pm

I recently picked up a new Henry in 41 mag. It's a great mate for my Blackhawk 41.
Took it to the range, sighted it in at 25 yards with the irons. BUT I noticed point of impact kept changing, I figure from barrel heating. Has anyone noticed this?
I also got a scope mount, installed a 2-7x, figuring this will be a great walking rifle for deer...point of impact shifts again...heat?
Also noticed that this bore will NOT clean! Spent about an hour scrubbing with a brush and tight patches, finally gave up. Last patch thru was almost as dirty as the first. Going to try JB Bore past next.
Any and all info,comments would be of great help!

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:04 pm

Welcome to the fire.

How many rounds before the POI shifts?

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:07 pm

What ammo did you shoot? Undersized cast lead bullets will lead the barrel and affect accuracy. I'd suggest slugging the barrel and miking the bullets. I don't have any info. on 41 Magnums, so I'm of no help there...

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:09 pm

No cast bullets yet. Tried XTP's and a Berry's plated. Both 210 gainers.
This is first lever gun in my arsenal so I'm looking for info about accuracy, tips & tricks.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:42 pm

Strange....for a new gun barrel not to clean up. As for POA changing, what do you call change? How much change at what distance and at how many rounds before the change? Some guns do that but if your hunting, it's usually a cold barrel. The more furniture that contacts the barrel, the more the POA will change.

Loosen up the screws on anything that contacts the barrel. I turn mine about one turn out and use a small .....small amount of loc tight to keep them there. As the barrel heats up, it expands and changes the pressure points which changes the POA. Src's with barrel bands are notorious for accuracy decreases as the heat increases. Even rifle forend tips need to be relieved a few thousandths where they meet the barrel. Watch the wood also.....gently sand where the wood touches the barrel...you know......leave a gap...a small gap.----6

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:50 pm

Poi change was 4-6"! It would change while shooting a 3 shot group. I have only put about 55 rounds thru it on two trips to the range. Second trip I was cleaning every three rounds.
You have confirmed my thoughts, I have removed forearm and cap, relieving wood and opened the gap around the barrel, also I did not crank down on the cap screws.

Thanks to all who have given their input! If anyone else has any ideas, please let me know!

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:00 pm

.

Welcome to the fire !

The 1st thing I would recommend for a shifting POI, is to (one screw at a time) remove the scope mount base screws and use acetone or laq thinner to clean the threads of both the mount screws AND their hole's threads.

After cleaning each set of threads, apply a drop of Loctite thread locker to each screw & hole thread before re-installation, ensuring you tighten each screw as tight as possible by hand, then set each screw via giving the head of each screw a solid downward smack before turning the screw the small additional turn you'll get out of it.

I would also do the same for the screws that hold the scope ring halves together.

The only time I found a bore difficult to clean is when I didn't realize that the gun's owner had been shooting copper-solid boolits through it - Once I realized that, a good copper cleaner made shot work of getting the bore clean.

.

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:11 pm

I did spray acetone in receiver holes, screws were not however, only because they came with thread lock compound from Henry. I'm going to shoot it again after my forend 'fix'. I forgot to mention the forend was rocking fore and aft. It's solid now after relieving wood and cap.
If it still doesn't shoot groups, I'll try your technique for setting the screws. And also try a scope change!
Thanks again!

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:20 pm

and Welcome to THE Forum!

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:12 pm

Welcome to the group, great folks here.

crs · Post by **crs** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:20 pm

Welcome to the forum.

Are those 210 grain bullets the Hornady .410 XTP pistol bullets? Are they hand loads or factory ammo?
Have you tried any heavier bullets? Or any .411 diameter bullets?

Knowing the exact internal barrel measurements from slugging or from Henry documentation may help to analyze the situation.
I hand load those .410 Hornady 210 grain XTP bullets from 1500 to 2000+ fps for plinking and kid loads in my 1895 .405 WCF. I have no idea if they are accurate and have never even tried to shoot groups with them; they go BANG with no recoil.

My 300 and 400 grain .411 hunting hand loads are accurate though, so I guess the 210s may be OK for close up use on whitetails and hogs.

When working up 400 grain DG loads for my .405 , I started with the .410 Hornady bullets because they were cheaper than the .411 Woodleigh bullets that I intended to hunt with. While researching loads, I came across more than one mention that in the Ruger #1 .405, the .410 Hornady was undersize and shot poorly (all over the place) until the barrel was well fouled and then it shot OK.
I had the same experience with my 1895 .405 and no longer use the .410 Hornady bullets for anything other than plinking.

I hope some of this is helpful, but if all else fails, Henry has a good reputation for Customer Service.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:33 pm

1. Welcome aboard.

2. There is a thread by Paco on the 'parent' (leverguns.com) site that goes over 'accurizing', but I think most of the previous responses have covered it - still a good read.

3. Don't hesitate to call Henry about it - the owner has returned calls and emails to me personally, and - I don't even own a Henry (I was calling about my son's). A Henry 45 Colt levergun is on my short-list, along with a Glock pistol.

kasTX · Post by **kasTX** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:13 pm

I am considering getting a Henry steel carbine in 44 Mag, so your post got my attention.

Based on your short description, it sounds more like the rifle isn't grouping as opposed to the point of impact shifting. The fouled barrel is interesting as well. You said you were shooting Berry bullets, which I believe are all plated and generally limited to 1,100 fps or so in the pistol calibers. The longer barrel of the rifle can add several hundred fps, so maybe you are pushing the bullets too fast and fouling the barrel?

When cleaning the barrel, are you using a solvent that removes copper, and if so, are you getting blue copper residue on the patches?

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:32 am

Yes, the XTPs are hand loads. Factory loads are $60+ for 50 rounds.
I tried a few Nosler 210s as well, only tried the berrys for getting on paper. Kept shooting them since I couldn't get groups.
To clean I was using Hoppes #9, an outers solvent- (have Sweets 7.62 coming& JB BORE PASTE)
As I would brush the bore then follow with saturated patch it would show copper fouling. s I mentioned in previous posts, I have not seen a clean patch come out of the barrel! Each and every patch is black.
Finally soaked a patch with Ballistol, pushed it thru and walked away from it.

I know Henry is great for customer service, I contacted them when I started my search for the 41 mag. They replied promptly. Have to admit, their customer service is WAY beyond any other manufacturer!

I really don't want to use case bullets in this bore until I know it'll come clean!

I'm a grad of TSJC gunsmith program, been many a bolt gun, semi auto I have gotten to be shooters, never had these kinds of issues I couldn't figure out before!

Thanks for the warm welcomes and your input!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:55 am

GunnyMack wrote:I really don't want to use cast bullets in this bore until I know it'll come clean!

I think with a new gun, if you fire a bunch of jacketed bullets the bore it should smooth a bit over time and lead less after that.

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:35 am

Welcome to the forum.

POI change is usually a scope issue or hot barrel issue.

What "quality" of scope are you using?

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:41 am

Just miked the Noslers,XTPs, both are .412". A box of LAZERCAST I have are .414".

I'm sure the problem is NOT boolit dia, all impacts are nice clean holes. No tumbling.

Also looked at Hawk bullets website, they make some great stuff, but nothing oversize.

Jdad, I put a NEW vortex on it, I know it's not a high quality piece of glass, trying to not take glass off another gun... I'm going to swap the vortex on to a .22, check it for accuracy and see if it is the scope.

Like I said earlier, poi changed with the irons as well.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:04 am

GunnyMack wrote:
To clean I was using Hoppes #9, an outers solvent- (have Sweets 7.62 coming& JB BORE PASTE)

As I would brush the bore then follow with saturated patch it would show copper fouling.

FWIW, Unless Hoppe #9 Copper Solvent is used, the copper fouling will never come out.

.

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:52 am

As soon as my bottle of Sweets 7.62 get here( come on Brownells!) I'm gonna scrub it until patches are clean. If that doesn't work then I'm going to have to go back to Henry.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:15 pm

Lots of good info above. My approach to loose screws up front is a bit different. After shooting several known recipes if the gun won't group I'll actually take everything off the front end except the barrel. Then shoot it with the receiver resting barrel floating.
If it won't shoot I usually firelap the barrel, particularly if it's a new barrel.
( the clue here is it's dirty and hard to clean)
Generally you can firelap just by shooting at least 200 to 300 jacketed bullets. But, with today's ammo prices I generally use the aftermarket kits like the Wheeler or neco kits.

But, as mentioned above, try different loadings first. Pistol cal ammos with their poor bullet BC don't always do well with run of the mill book loads. You are on the right track with those Hornady bullets for sure. For my 44m and 357m they are the best I've found. Sorry, though, I have never loaded 41mag. Hopefully someone here can share a recipe.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:07 pm

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:... My approach to loose screws up front is a bit different. After shooting several known recipes if the gun won't group I'll actually take everything off the front end except the barrel. Then shoot it with the receiver resting barrel floating.
If it won't shoot I usually firelap the barrel, particularly if it's a new barrel.
( the clue here is it's dirty and hard to clean)
Generally you can firelap just by shooting at least 200 to 300 jacketed bullets. But, with today's ammo prices I generally use the aftermarket kits like the Wheeler or neco kits.
... Sorry, though, I have never loaded 41mag. Hopefully someone here can share a recipe.

+1.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:11 pm

Another thing I'd like to add is that if a rifle will not shoot decent with match velocity loads, it ain't gonna shoot nothin'.

In the 41 mag, try 5 grains of Bullseye and some sort of a properly sized cast bullet.---6

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:10 pm

Bullseye is another powder I can't find easily... But I haven't looked for that in a LONG time.

Also tried some of my 5744 plinker loads for my blackhawk, still 210 XTPs. By that time I was so frustrated I was just burning powder!

COME ON BROWNELLS!!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:50 pm

If it's shooting horribly with the iron sights, I'd call Henry, and send it back. They will send you a prepaid mailer, send you a new one, and ship it back to you free of charge. I just can't imagine 8" groups regardless of how dirty the bore is. Something ain't right. (Unless, and this I doubt, that your handloads suck that bad)

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:17 pm

I'm going to try a good solvent, as I mentioned, Sweets 7.62. Swap the scope, remount the base as well.

I'm also going to bump up the H110 load to max, and load some 4227 and Lil'Gun.

The patches are black, not green... I'm thinking rust is the culprit!!

Hate to get a different gun, this one has a 3 digit serial number! Also from what Henry told me the 41's won't be on the assembly line until November... Wrecks my deer season!

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:02 pm

Welcome aboard!

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:05 pm

GunnyMack wrote:I'm going to try a good solvent, as I mentioned, Sweets 7.62. Swap the scope, remount the base as well.

The patches are black, not green... I'm thinking rust is the culprit!!
!

GM,
Some of this is not making sense. First, forget the Sweets.....it's not going to make any kind of a dramatic difference....if any at all.

I just don't understand how the barrel will not clean up. I've shot LOTS of antique guns with sewer bores and they cleaned up .......even ones where I could not see the lands because of lead.

The scope swap does make sense. Load some LIGHT loads......5 of Bullseye, 7 of Unique, 6 of 231, 5 of Red Dot or Green Dot, 7 of Herco.........find some fast burning powder and start with a starting load that's EASY to shoot. If your confidence is low on scope mounting, use the iron sights, a good bench rest and squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze the trigger.

----6

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:57 pm

It's been 40 years since I loaded .41s but when I did I loaded a 210 Gr LSWC over 2400. Your H110 should be about the same.

I'm not meaning to talk down to you so please don't be insulted but your technique on the bench must be consistent as well. Are you using a sandbag both front and rear? On some rifles you also need to have the front bag in the right place. Handi rifles are extremely sensitive to that and have to have the front rest all the way back under the hinge pin. Try placing the front bag all the way against the receiver and see if that makes any difference.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:48 am

Bottom line is don't blame the gun until you have tried different loading's.

Somewhat related but something I hear from my customers is, "This gun always jams with this ammo. It must be out of time. Can you fix it?" When I explain to them that leverguns can be sensitive to certain ammo's. Once they try different ammo's I never hear from them again. It's the same with shooting decent groups. Some gun just don't do well with certain ammo's.

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:08 pm

Well, after no internet service this morning just got to checking in.
Sixgun- yes I'm using sandbags. Rear bag as well as front.
My technique was forearm rested just behind forend cap. Next time out i will try moving fore & aft.
I know 2 pieces of wood can be a bear to get sighted in, BAR, Ruger #1's( love mine in .218 bee!)
Even years ago shooting smooth bore slugs I saw better accuracy then this 41.
Pulled a .22 out of the rack that I'm going to steal the scope from.

I guess Murphy is kickin my butt for the time I dropped a 2-7 on my Ruger .44 carbine, put a round in it squeezes off a shot and was not only on paper but dead nuts center of the bull!! Next one same hole, next one opened it up by a boolit dia !

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:12 pm

Steve, yeah COL is everything. I ran some of the Berry plated jobs a bit too deep in the case, minor feeding problem. Helps to feed if gun is in a vertical position. Not cocked to the side when running the lever off bags on the bench.

I try to keep my loads with the bottom of cannalure at case mouth for good crimp.

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:44 pm

You've now determined it's not the scope.

Ok, you've been through gunsmith school. Do you have a bore scope? You just may have a bad barrel. Stuff happens.

S&W had some when they first released the Victory. http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/at ... 1472158329

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:59 pm

GunnyMack wrote:Steve, yeah COL is everything. I ran some of the Berry plated jobs a bit too deep in the case, minor feeding problem. Helps to feed if gun is in a vertical position. Not cocked to the side when running the lever off bags on the bench.

I try to keep my loads with the bottom of cannalure at case mouth for good crimp.

That was not my point at all. My point was, like Feeding, accuracy issues are usually ammo related, too.

So, don't be so hasty to blame the gun until you have tried different loadings.

On a side note, most pistol cal new production barrels don't start out shooting well with cast lead. Until that barrel is seasoned they don't always shoot so good. Seasoning a pistol cal barrel with lead loads generally requires at least 1000 round down range. Jacketed 200 to 300. That's why I like to fire lap.

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:44 pm

I don't have a bore scope, never had reason to buy one-UNTIL NOW! Have always wanted one...
Have to do scope swap yet, might get to shoot it this weekend.

Haven't shot any cast yet, not sure I want to if this bore is bad.

Suppose I should contact Henry, but I'd rather do more trial & error before I go back to them.

Going to go swab the bore again, try to post pic of patch.

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:58 pm

There's a bunch of endoscope/borescope that plug into your phone for around $10-$20, on Ebay..

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:35 pm

Endoscope/bore scopes are for Android phones... Of course I have an apple thing!
So I ordered on that fit laptop.

Have removed scope, base, cleaned screws and holes with acetone( again), reinstalled base, gave each screw another drop of blue lock tight , tightened screws, gave each a whack and got another 1/16 turn on them.

Leverguns won't take my pic of patch, it's too big of a file!
Dry patch thru bore, came out black around the jag, I figure it is rust.

Camel73 · Post by **Camel73** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:19 pm

Get "photo resizer" app on your phone. It's free and too easy to use. 600x800 or visa versa is max I choose.

Good luck with that!

I've been following your thread... hope you get things figured out

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:50 pm

I'm eagerly waiting to see how this comes out. I hope you get it solved soon.

Fire lapping would be my next guess.

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:59 am

Thanks for tip on resize app. Here is the dry patch I pushed thru the bore. Again this is after scrubbing for an hour with brush and soaked/ dry patches over the weekend.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:02 pm

That looks like about 4-5 patches from clean after I've been shootin' BP in my Uberti 1873 rifle. Keep cleaning! Makes me wonder just how "new" your rifle was?

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:22 pm

That patch was after 50+ patches and brushing!

It is/was New In Box. Has a 3 digit serial number, from what I know the 41 mag was offered last year, I can't see the 41's being big sellers.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:23 pm

If you have an endoscope, I find that in my larger bores, I need to wad up a clean patch and push it down the bore to get a good look @ the lands & grooves. Push it in, then back off a few inches till it focuses well.

Browning 1885 - 45 Colt

From the look of that patch, 'd guess there's something stuck to one side of the bore. If it were mine... I'd seal the muzzle, stand it muzzle down and fill the bore with Kroil and let it sit a coupla days... then remove the bolt and scrub with a good bronze brush from the breach while the barrel still full of the Kroil.

Or contact Henry and find out how they want to deal with it.

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:28 pm

I had that same thought! I might do that after I push some JB BORE thru it.

If I can't get it to clean up then I'm going back to Henry.

I have never had a bore act like this. Even an old WW2 Mauser would clean!

Endoscope is on the way!

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:11 pm

jdad wrote:There's a bunch of endoscope/borescope that plug into your phone for around $10-$20, on Ebay..

Okay, I can understand a borescope for you smart phone, but an endoscope? I must be living a very sheltered life. I can't come up with any reason a person needs and endoscope for their phone.

flatnose · Post by **flatnose** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:03 pm

It looks like the bore is starting to clean up. Before I clean anymore, I would slug the bore and find out exactly what groove diameter I have.
If the bore is oversized or out of spec, let Henry deal with it.

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:11 pm

I do have cerrosafe, I can check muzzle dia easily enough or chamber end. But as you say slugging is best. Hopefully I can get to that this weekend.

The endoscope I bought off eBay was CHEAP! Of course the phone 'scopes are for android, I have an apple...the one I'm getting plugs into USB on computer. Even if it only works for this it'll pay for itself.

I could see getting use out of a 'scope, as a building trades guy this could be handy someday.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:22 pm

flatnose wrote:It looks like the bore is starting to clean up. Before I clean anymore, I would slug the bore and find out exactly what groove diameter I have.
If the bore is oversized or out of spec, let Henry deal with it.

+1
I had a new Win 1886 with a muzzle diameter a few thousandths larger than the breach end. Different hoop stress on the fast taper barrel I guess. Fixed it by fire lapping.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:10 pm

If like you say, it is a new gun it is very well possible that what you are seeing is bluing on that patch. Not all makers plug the bores to blue.
Fire lapping will take care of that. Once its slick your lead loads should do better. particularly if the bullets are at least .001" over bore size.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:32 pm

GunnyMack wrote:

Sixgun- yes I'm using sandbags. Rear bag as well as front.

My technique was forearm rested just behind forend cap.

Next time out i will try moving fore & aft.

IMHO, you're not doing yourself any favors, since the rifle's vibrations during the shot(s) will bounce the rifle ever so slightly & differently, from shot to shot - not conducive to achieving best accuracy.

With a fully-assembled rifle having 2-piece stocks, I've always been able to achieve that particular rifle's best accuracy (and zero) via not letting ANY part of the rifle touch anything other than a part of my body.

To wit:

* I insert the palm of my non-trigger hand palm upward between the rifle's forestock and the front rest, while grasping the forestock very tightly, pulling the forestock down towards the rest and rearward towards my shoulder at the same time.

* I grasp the wrist of the buttstock tightly with my trigger hand, and with the trigger finger held free until the shot, while that hand also pulls the buttstock rearward into my shoulder - also insuring the the tow of the buttstock does not make any contact with either the rear rest or the benchtop.

Good luck !

.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:17 pm

This sure is getting interesting. In all my days.....and that's a lot......I've never seen the issue GM has. There HAS to be something wrong with that barrel.

GM....smack a 44 caliber soft lead round ball down that barrel and mike it. I'm interested in hearing the results. After you get it started, pay close attention on the strength needed as your pushing it towards the breach. See if it "hangs up" somewhere during its travel down the barrel after it starts to push smoothly.

You just might have one of those barrels that "fans out" at the muzzle.---6