FBI returns to the 9mm

[Ray Newman]

"UPDATE: The FBI’s solicitation for 9mm handguns generated a flood of questions from state and local agencies, many who carry .40, about the change. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, a division of DHS, currently issues the Sig 229 in .40 but allows agents to purchase and carry 9mm Glocks. ICE has a solicitation out for a new service handgun in 9mm. Some Army Special Operations Command elements carry the Glock 22 in .40. They are currently purchasing the Glock 19 in 9mm. There is no word as to the future of their .40s. The FBI drove the initial move from 9mm to .40 for many of these same agencies. As new details come to light about the FBI’s ultimate choice, expect more details here. Below is a statement was prepared the FBI Training Division to answer those questions and was intended for dissemination to law enforcement agencies. It was not classified Law Enforcement Sensitive and has spread to civilians. I have confirmed its origin and feel that its release poses no threat to law enforcement while providing enlightening science, paid for by taxpayer dollars, to the public."

Read all 'bout it:
http://thearmsguide.com/7948/fbi-picks-9mm/

[Blaine]

Was that Col Jeff that just rolled over in his grave?

[MrMurphy]

Why would he, they were carrying 9's when he was alive.......


This is not news, it has been coming for over a year.

The "Army SOC" elements carrying .40 Glocks were Delta Force (they went to 9mm due to supply), they got tired of having to rebuild 1911s every week or so.

Marine Recon went to Glock 19s, SEALs have gone to Glock 9's as well. With current JHP ammo, this is not anything unexpected, current 9mm JHP ammo performs as good as anything in the other calibers.

[Blaine]

Why would he, they were carrying 9's when he was alive.......


This is not news, it has been coming for over a year.

The "Army SOC" elements carrying .40 Glocks were Delta Force (they went to 9mm due to supply), they got tired of having to rebuild 1911s every week or so.

Marine Recon went to Glock 19s, SEALs have gone to Glock 9's as well. With current JHP ammo, this is not anything unexpected, current 9mm JHP ammo performs as good as anything in the other calibers.

Well, Grasshopper, The Col. preferred .45acp launched from his favorite platform, not "Crunchentickers" in 9mm.....That is all I meant, but I think you knew that.

[jeepnik]

The shootout that caused the whole 10mm/.40S&W phase wasn't poor armament, it was poor tactics. Facing armed felons that are known to have long guns with, mostly, handguns and getting your butt kicked can't be prevented by using a larger caliber handgun.

But they sure side tracked the debate by changing caliber.

[mikld]

Not an expert on "The Shootout", but jeepnik's last post sounds more like what really went on...

[Tycer]

Not an expert on "The Shootout", but jeepnik's last post sounds more like what really went on...

It's an excellent example of how not to apprehend criminals. Well documented and written.

[Ray]

.

[Lastmohecken]

I believe that the real reason is that the 40 is harder to shoot then the 9mm. It a little more snappy in the recoil dept. And the 9 holds more ammo in the mags. And practice ammo is probably cheaper. And modern, top tier, 9mm self-defense ammo has come a long way, and the 9 is more effective then it used to be.

And also bottom line is the vast majority of law enforcement personal are not "into guns" and they are not all that good a shots, and they miss a lot, more ammo in the gun, seems like a good idea to them.

I don't know about shooting humans, but I have killed enough stuff with the nine, and the 40 and the 10mm and in my humble opinion they rank exactly likewise in killing power. The ten mm beats the nine, and 40 is in the middle. The 10 is maybe too much gun for the average shooter that don't practice much.

Some recent reports may say the 9 is just as good at racking up 1 shot stops, but if that is true, its because average people shoot the 9 more accurately.

[kaschi]

Kinda weird how things change. Oh well, the manufacturers have got to be happy being able to sell more guns! Funny though how the trend is to go back to 9mm. 20-25 yrs ago all the police and govt agencies couldn't run away from it fast enough….. If I'm not mistaken, the army want a new handgun and caliber, don't they? If true, they would be walking away from the very caliber the others are going to. Maybe in 20 yrs, they will return to it making the "discovery" that the 9mm is the best thing since sliced bread! The govt sure knows how to spend the working man's tax dollars.

[AJMD429]

Not an expert on "The Shootout", but jeepnik's last post sounds more like what really went on...

If you are invited to a knife fight, bring a handgun.
If you are invited to a handgun fight, bring a rifle.

Or stay home, if given that option...!

I fired a Ruger SR-9 and SR-40 side by side and hit just a bit faster with the 9mm.

I fired a 45 ACP 1911 (14 shot gun) and a 9mm 1911 (18 shot gun) side by side and was definitely able to keep hitting (16" gong at 15 yards) faster.

Having said that, the 45 ACP is STILL more fun....

...and a Redhawk in 44 Mag is even MORE fun....

....but I can see an argument for the 9mm as more practical...

[sore shoulder]

Why would he, they were carrying 9's when he was alive.......


This is not news, it has been coming for over a year.

The "Army SOC" elements carrying .40 Glocks were Delta Force (they went to 9mm due to supply), they got tired of having to rebuild 1911s every week or so.

Marine Recon went to Glock 19s, SEALs have gone to Glock 9's as well. With current JHP ammo, this is not anything unexpected, current 9mm JHP ammo performs as good as anything in the other calibers.

Exactly. Not to mention, from doctrinal and logostics standpoint, 9mm is superior. And of course so is a Glock. (please God let the Army throw away the Berettas and give us Glocks, thank you and Amen)

[guido4198]

It's my humble opinion that the changes in "thinking" that is causing (allowing) folks to take another look at 9mm is the availability AND acceptance of the improved defensive ammunition available.
It would seem that a lot of folks these days are able to use quality defensive ammunition in their 9mm sidearms as opposed to FMJ hardball. IF....if you can do that, the 9mm can be an effective choice.
There was a time when only FMJ rounds were acceptable. In that world, the 9mm is NOT such a good choice.
It remains to be seen if we will have to go through another wave of feigned media "outrage" should reports begin to surface about military and law enforcement using the dreaded "HOLLOWPOINTS", or "DUM_DUM" rounds to shred their enemies. (sheeeesh)

[marlinman93]

I'd take a Beretta over a Glock any day. I hate Glock triggers, and I prefer any handgun with a real working safety over the Glock "safe trigger". More cops shoot themselves with their Glocks than bad guys shoot cops. Flame away!
As for the 9mm vs. the .40 S&W. I think the FBI, and police agencies feel they just like to change things up every once in awhile. Or maybe it's the gun manufacturers selling them on the idea of a complete change of guns and calibers, so they can sell more guns. Whatever the FBI does, the police agencies seem to follow shortly after.

[J Miller]

Well that does make sense. The feds have bought up a gazillion rounds of military caliber ammo in recent years, why keep using civilian calibers? Buy using the 9mms they can afford to shoot each "suspect" 30 or 40 times each.

Joe

[MrMurphy]

Cops shooting themselves with Glocks will shoot themselves with Berettas (if you doubt that, ask LAPD and LASD). For that matter, the same idiots would shoot themselves with .38s.


With modern JHPs, the 9 gives up nothing. The military isn't using JHP, and instead of just admitting the Hague accords are idiotic and using JHP, they want bigger rounds (with the amount of nontraining the military does with pistols in all but a few units, this will mean people still won't hit anything).


In Miami, the agents didn't really think they'd find the guys, had long guns in trunks and not accessible, a couple lost their guns since they had them stuck under their legs, etc and the guns went flying when everyone suddenly stopped......bad tactics all around.

[Griff]

While glossed over in the article, the reason for the change is "cost"... pure and simple. They gussied up the report to justify it on other levels... but, the fact remains, cost was the determining factor.

For every improvement in projectiles in the 9mm, those same improvements are available in a .40 or .45 caliber projectile. And there's no doubt that a 9mm is easier to control than the heavier recoiling .40 or .45. So, if their justifying data shows that the average "hit" count in a shooting is 20-30%, definitely give the LEO more ammo. And if he's going to need more, it also needs to be at a lower cost.

[JohndeFresno]

...the 40 is harder to shoot then the 9mm. It a little more snappy...
practice ammo is probably cheaper...
the 9 is more effective then it used to be...
Some recent reports may say the 9 is just as good at racking up 1 shot stops...because average people shoot the 9 more accurately.

Right on.

This comes from one who has carried revolvers or pistols for 50 years and who has always hated carrying the 9mm because of its apparent inadequacy when compared with the .38 +P, .357, .45 (whatever), .40 SW, and .357 SIG. In fact, over the years I have twice been required to carry the 9. Both times, the platform was quite good and it was easy to shoot, but statistics and tests were underwhelming as the round relates to personal defense. Things have certainly changed!

I have always been a .357 Mag 125 gr HP or .45 ACP HP advocate. Since 1975 (and based upon a particular incident using a .357 Python), I switched to the .45 ACP as my preferred off-duty (and when allowed, on-duty) carry because of its more controllable recoil, tamer blast and muzzle flash, and of course reload speed.

The new Federal HST 9mm 147 grain projectile surpasses FBI defensive handgun ballistic requirements as shown in the video below. The non +P rounds penetrate ballistic gel through 3 ply denim at an average depth of 13.35 inches while expanding to an average of .60 caliber (.601") - consistently!

My latest range tests with a compact pistol and the HST 9mm's confirms that accuracy is amazing, while enjoying a light enough recoil for quick follow-up shots. My new (California legal) Smith & Wesson M&P Shield, for instance, is a nice little concealable gun. It has the now-popular striker firing mechanism like a Glock with a wonderful trigger pull, light polymer construction, and offers a model with or without a frame mounted safety. I demand a safety in a semi-auto.

I am not Jerry Miculek, yet on first shooting at 7 1/2 yards rapid fire most of my rounds went into a coffee cup diameter group. At 25 yards with this tiny single stack gun, this old bespectacled gent kept all rounds in the "critical zone" rather easily. In fact, my experience and perception was that these hard hitting HST 147 grainers were no more difficult to shoot accurately than factory 115 grain Federal and Sellier & Beliot target rounds that I shot in the same session with that little Shield pistol.

So - this little concealable polymer pistol is now running serious competition with my everyday carry pistol up to this point - a 1911 type .45 ACP with Crimson Trace laser sights (also with Federal HST HP rounds). I am so impressed with the new era lightweight pistol and those incredible HST 9mm rounds that I am experiencing guilt feelings, rethinking my views about my beloved .45's. And this post might even ANGER some fellow Levergunners who, like me, have always considered that there is absolutely no peer to the great old .45 ACP 1911 type boomer. Now, I'm not so sure.

Take a look at this short YouTube video, created by a frequent and popular firearms tester. Even his was very impressed by his test of the HST 9mm standard pressure ammunition in a short barreled concealable pistol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3VfWkWMzOI.

Remember, this is standard pressure, which helps with the longevity of your firearm and does its work without the more pronounced muzzle flip of the +P version! This is now my 9mm carry ammo.

[MrMurphy]

A Shield, loaded with 124 gr Gold Dots (issued load, and HST is hard to find here regularly) is my 24/7 gun, backup on duty and my offduty piece. I could carry a bigger gun in other circumstances, but at the moment, the Shield is the smallest, reliable shooter I can carry and accurately hit with at any normal distances.....far more than a J-frame (though I have one of those too).

[tman]

I would consider myself well heeled with a Glock in any caliber. My preference is the .40 cal. model 27 with a 13 round mag.2nd is the model 43, 9mm. I don't care what the FBI or any police or military agencies use. A lot of that is politically rigged contracts. To me, there is no difference between the 9,.357 SIG, 40, 10mm,and .45. in a combat/defensive handgun. But, I will say that Glock is the superior platform, regardless of price.

[Bill in Oregon]

Now to see our police departments return to Smith and Wesson Model 10s and 158-grain RN lead .38 Special ...



KIDDING!

[Blaine]

Now to see our police departments return to Smith and Wesson Model 10s and 158-grain RN lead .38 Special ...



KIDDING!

I remember way, way back when the experts talked about loading those backwards, and how effective they were. They were way ahead of the game on w i d e meplat bullets.

[Griff]

So - this little concealable polymer pistol is now running serious competition with my everyday carry pistol up to this point - a 1911 type .45 ACP with Crimson Trace laser sights (also with Federal HST HP rounds). I am so impressed with the new era lightweight pistol and those incredible HST 9mm rounds that I am experiencing guilt feelings, rethinking my views about my beloved .45's. And this post might even ANGER some fellow Levergunners who, like me, have always considered that there is absolutely no peer to the great old .45 ACP 1911 type boomer. Now, I'm not so sure.

Heresy!

[JohndeFresno]

So - this little concealable polymer pistol is now running serious competition with [the] 1911 type .45 ACP...

Heresy!

HELP!
I'm being seduced by the Dark Side of Technology!

[AJMD429]

So - this little concealable polymer pistol is now running serious competition with my everyday carry pistol up to this point - a 1911 type .45 ACP with Crimson Trace laser sights (also with Federal HST HP rounds). I am so impressed with the new era lightweight pistol and those incredible HST 9mm rounds that I am experiencing guilt feelings, rethinking my views about my beloved .45's. And this post might even ANGER some fellow Levergunners who, like me, have always considered that there is absolutely no peer to the great old .45 ACP 1911 type boomer. Now, I'm not so sure.

Same here, only maybe worse, since my 45ACP/1911 'platform' is a 14 shot double-stack, (and it is also reliable with 20-round extended magazines if needed ). Plus I work and live in an environment where concealment is nice but not mandatory, so I don't really have the 'capacity tradeoff' either........

..........bit I really LIKE my Sig P938........alot......

[guido4198]

I came to pretty much the same conclusions as JohndeFresno a while back.
For several years down here in Florida, my daily carry choice has been a Kahr CM9 loaded with Federal 147 HST's.
Turns out having that little Kahr ON ME is infinitely more comforting than having all my tricked out 45 acp 1911's and 41 mag and .357 mag S&W's in the safe at home.

[sore shoulder]

It's always been funny to me how many people will proclaim a .38 +p from a snubby to be acceptable as a self defense carry gun, but 9mm is not acceptable. Apparently they have not examined the caliber and ballistics of a 9mm compared to a +p .38.

[marlinman93]

It's always been funny to me how many people will proclaim a .38 +p from a snubby to be acceptable as a self defense carry gun, but 9mm is not acceptable. Apparently they have not examined the caliber and ballistics of a 9mm compared to a +p .38.

The 9mm is indeed superior in muzzle energy to the .38 +P in equal weight bullets.

[Blaine]

It's always been funny to me how many people will proclaim a .38 +p from a snubby to be acceptable as a self defense carry gun, but 9mm is not acceptable. Apparently they have not examined the caliber and ballistics of a 9mm compared to a +p .38.

I've always wondered why, with its greater case capacity, why the Special isn't a bit hotter than it is

[sore shoulder]

It's always been funny to me how many people will proclaim a .38 +p from a snubby to be acceptable as a self defense carry gun, but 9mm is not acceptable. Apparently they have not examined the caliber and ballistics of a 9mm compared to a +p .38.

I've always wondered why, with its greater case capacity, why the Special isn't a bit hotter than it is

Operating pressure. +p .38 is 20K psi, +p 9mm is 38K psi. Which equates to an average of around 150 ft lbs more energy for the same weight (and caliber).

[donw]

i do NOT feel 'undergunned' with a 9mm, 45 acp or 38. Sp.

two hand guns that have stuck with me for the last 20 years are the Ruger P95 in 9mm and a Taurus 65 in 38/357. both are 'anvil' simple, easy to shoot and accurate enough to be very formidable in a CQB situation.

one needs to get the handgun they prefer/are allowed, and train with it.

as an example, one should consider a good double action revolver. they are reliable, have no safety to stumble over when needed...however...reloading is a different issue. the operation and loading of a semi auto is much different.

accuracy? semi-auto and revolver can be accurate.

i watched a "Shoot out" between a SAA Colt and a 1911 ACP as the result of a "Which can fire faster" debate. the result was astonishing: the ACP beat the SAA by only 0.7 sec.

it must be stated that each was loaded with only 6 rounds and the shooters were both expert competitors in cowboy action shooting and SASS.

ever hear of a bad guy wanting preference as to which caliber to be shot with?

"Speed is fine, accuracy is final"...attributed to Wyatt Earp.

[gundownunder]

How many ferals do you come across that wouldn't call it a day after being shot, regardless of caliber. Of those that won't go down to a 9mm, I wonder how many wouldn't go down to a hand cannon either.

As far as "the shootout" is concerned I've seen the video, and if a bunch of ferals with assault rifles were coming my way, I wouldn't give a rats rear end how big my pistol was, I'd be getting out of there.

Only shots that hit the target count and most cops miss most of their shots anyway. I would bet that an analysis of the data would show proportionately higher misses as the recoil and subsequent flinch increases.

I remember some years ago reading an FBI analysis on the subject of one shot fight stoppers. The result of that data was that the 357 was the best one shot fight stopper with a result of about 97%, and even the 44 magnum and the 45 acp couldn't match it. The 38 spl and 9mm were down a little under the 44 and 45 and even the humble 22 was in the ratings and if I remember the data correctly it wasn't that bad a performer.

[Blaine]

It's always been funny to me how many people will proclaim a .38 +p from a snubby to be acceptable as a self defense carry gun, but 9mm is not acceptable. Apparently they have not examined the caliber and ballistics of a 9mm compared to a +p .38.

I've always wondered why, with its greater case capacity, why the Special isn't a bit hotter than it is

Operating pressure. +p .38 is 20K psi, +p 9mm is 38K psi. Which equates to an average of around 150 ft lbs more energy for the same weight (and caliber).

Yes, I know this is how it is, but...There's not that much difference between a 38 Special Revolver, and a .357 revolver....The specials are kept lighter because of the older weapons that might be fired with them, ala three or four levels of 45-70 loads.

[Panzercat]

While glossed over in the article, the reason for the change is "cost"... pure and simple. They gussied up the report to justify it on other levels... but, the fact remains, cost was the determining factor.

For every improvement in projectiles in the 9mm, those same improvements are available in a .40 or .45 caliber projectile. And there's no doubt that a 9mm is easier to control than the heavier recoiling .40 or .45. So, if their justifying data shows that the average "hit" count in a shooting is 20-30%, definitely give the LEO more ammo. And if he's going to need more, it also needs to be at a lower cost.

This. Seriously, you have to read the article and the rationale behind the changes. The official justification is so full of fluff that it can barely be taken seriously--

· Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades
...Okay, and?

· Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore
...While true, the point is?

· Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best
...As opposed to throwing the gun at a target, I guess.

· In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident
...Also self evident.


· Handgun stopping power is simply a myth
...Wait. Didn't you just say that some projectiles have a higher likelihood of failing than others? In other news, the FBI will be moving to .22lr because stopping power is apparently a myth.

· The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)
...And here I would have thought it was marksmanship and accuracy.

· LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
...Whoops! Spoke too soon!

· Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
...Unsaid is the fact that ALL projectiles have "dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness".

· 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
...By what meteric? THIS MATTERS. Assuming penetration being the most important aspect of performance, 9mm will almost always out-penetrate .40 and .45 because that's how physics works.

· 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)
...Now we get to the real reasons after a stuff-ton of fluff justification. Officers miss A LOT, needs more capacity. Less recoil, lowest common physical denominator. Lower cost, better logistics. I'll toss out reliability because that's a hardware issue, not a ammunition issue.

· The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)
Again, this caters to the lowest common denominator of physical aptitude. Not that this is a bad thing; just be honest about it.

· There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
...Aside from a bigger hole and more mass.

· Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers
...Again, somehow contemporary construction only benefits the 9mm with no discernible difference in other bullets with similar technology. I'm sorry, but I'm going to call BS if this is what the report wants to hang its hat on.

Oh, and stopping power is a myth, so what's the big deal about contemporary bullet construction, anyway?

The fact that they need to fluff this report up so much in the first half while outright contradicting itself in places just causes me to roll my eyes. It comes down to two simple facts: It costs less and cops miss A LOT. It's a settle-for caliber in this scenario; nothing more, nothing less.

[Blaine]

By what meteric? THIS MATTERS. Assuming penetration being the most important aspect of performance, 9mm will almost always out-penetrate .40 and .45 because that's how physics works.

What physics is that? Calibre is about the last issue that determines penetration. A heavy for calibre 45 will out penetrate a light for calibre 9mm everytime. Bullet construction, etc.....

[Panzercat]

By what meteric? THIS MATTERS. Assuming penetration being the most important aspect of performance, 9mm will almost always out-penetrate .40 and .45 because that's how physics works.

What physics is that? Calibre is about the last issue that determines penetration. A heavy for calibre 45 will out penetrate a light for calibre 9mm everytime. Bullet construction, etc.....

All things being equal, it does not take the same amount of energy to drive the lighter projectile at higher speed. Velocity is also what kills body armor, thus penetration. I didn't think I needed to state that you shouldn't make bullets out of Styrofoam or get into debates about "heavy for caliber" which takes this conversation into the weeds.

[JohndeFresno]

Hey, all of the above reminds me of the good ol' days working for the State when we formed committees to decide upon a course of action, or some new equipment, or a revised policy. After some relevant facts were shared, folks started arguing about how many monkeys can fit in a tree, or where the rabbit ran down the hole.

I don't know all the reasons that the FBI returned to the 9mm, but I suspect that some of my reasons for embracing the 9mm (now) might relate:
* Needed - a highly concealable platform to reliably fire a hard hitting round to end the fight - permanently.
* Environment - a public gathering where more formal warm weather dress is the norm - shirts tucked in. Shirt over pants gives you away to an aware adversary, so does the clip of an IWB holster. Specifically, your church.
* Possible Scenario - some loony tune with a death wish and a firearm, not necessarily firing within arm's reach
* Recent case in point: Santa Barbara
* Return to Reality fact: Quick follow-up shots might be needed to end the threat. No handgun caliber has 100% one-shot stops, and very few people under extreme stress in a dynamic moving shooting situation have pinpoint accuracy for a one-shot head placement. Range expertise has little relation to life and death situations. One exception: Navy SEALs, who are painstakingly vetted for true toughness and constantly train under stress.

Remembering some previous duty training, I have now been practicing with pulling up a range target to one side so that it is still swinging from side to side when I run it out to various spots. Moving head shots are very difficult to master beyond 5 yards.

The above factors finally led to my decision to purchase and carry a proper 9mm round with a proven, reliable and accurate tiny handgun that filled my needs.

My everyday carry choice is still the reliable, powerful .45 ACP with 230 grain HST HP's and a laser sight, as noted above. It is flat for most concealment situations and is reasonably heavy to keep muzzle flip down and return to target, its round has been tested and highly endorsed by many LE agencies in tests in several states, and with its long sight radius I am happy with accuracy results at 25 yards and a bit beyond. I don't put thousands of rounds through it each year, but on the other hand I have never had to "rebuild" anything on it since I first started carrying it 40 (forty) years ago, although I have replaced the finger type barrel bushing just for safety.

Now - thanks to the recurring actions of members of a dysfunctional and violent religious faction, it is time to carry an effective, reliable, and accurate firearm/ammo combination in a more extreme mode of concealment. Here are some facts, not speculation - no monkeys are counted as they climb the trees, no following rabbits down the holes:

One Solution
Holster:
DeSantis "Die Hard" Ankle Glove, snug, sturdy and lined for comfortable all-day wear

Firearm:
S&W Shield 9mm caliber
Striker Fire action with smooth 6.5 lb trigger pull and a safety, 7 and 8 rd mags, 6.1 in overall, .95 in width(!), OA length 6.1 in.; Weight 19.0 oz. Very concealable and light, but easy to fire accurately.
Polymer frame, Barrel / Slide is Black 68 HRc Chrome. Sight radius 5.3 in (and sights superior to a snubbie)


Ammunition (as described above):
Federal HST 9mm 147 gr. non-+P (standard pressure) ammo
Penetration in ballistic gel through 3 ply denim: Average depth 13.35 inches, consistently
Expansion (after test in denim): Average, consistent .60 caliber with almost 100% weight retention.
Good enough for me.


My range tests confirm: Reliable functioning, easy quick follow-up shots with good accuracy, and acceptable accuracy even at 25 yards - and of course this semi-auto has it all over a revolver for fast reloads, with magazines that fit in a pocket.

[Panzercat]

Hey, all of the above reminds me of the good ol' days working for the State when we formed committees to decide upon a course of action, or some new equipment, or a revised policy. After some relevant facts were shared, folks started arguing about how many monkeys can fit in a tree, or where the rabbit ran down the hole.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying 9mm is a horrible round. If you have a mission for it, then it is appropriate, no questions asked. I just dispute many of the FBIs original assertions, most of which basically comes down to "All calibers are equal because modern bullet technology, but stopping power doesn't matter/exist."

[Blaine]

By what meteric? THIS MATTERS. Assuming penetration being the most important aspect of performance, 9mm will almost always out-penetrate .40 and .45 because that's how physics works.

What physics is that? Calibre is about the last issue that determines penetration. A heavy for calibre 45 will out penetrate a light for calibre 9mm everytime. Bullet construction, etc.....

All things being equal, it does not take the same amount of energy to drive the lighter projectile at higher speed. Velocity is also what kills body armor, thus penetration. I didn't think I needed to state that you shouldn't make bullets out of Styrofoam or get into debates about "heavy for caliber" which takes this conversation into the weeds.

Oh, BS You know dang well I'm talking about the normal range of bullet weights, and construction. If you don't want to talk about bullet weight, heavy for caliber vis-a-vis penetration, and construction, then, respectfully, you have disqualified yourself from this conversation. You do NOT know what you're talking about.

[JohndeFresno]

OK, Gentlemen, leave your guns in the locker!

[Panzercat]

Oh, BS You know dang well I'm talking about the normal range of bullet weights, and construction. If you don't want to talk about bullet weight, heavy for caliber vis-a-vis penetration, and construction, then, respectfully, you have disqualified yourself from this conversation. You do NOT know what you're talking about.

Okay, lets. Who uses heavy for weight bullets in their sidearms? I'll be waiting for that list because it isn't most law enforcement, rendering it an irrelevent talking point. And while the interwebs isnt always the creme de creme of firearms knowledge, a simple google of "9mm vs 45 penetration" will have a lot to say on vis-a-vis penetration values. Or doubting that, youtube video evidence.

Of course heavier for caliber weights will produce superior penetration. And so what? Energy penetrates at short ranges. Mass conservatives energy. Finding the happy medium has always been the hard part.

And heck, man. I carry a 45 everywhere. It's not as if I'm in the habit of defending 9mm.

[Blaine]

Oh, BS You know dang well I'm talking about the normal range of bullet weights, and construction. If you don't want to talk about bullet weight, heavy for caliber vis-a-vis penetration, and construction, then, respectfully, you have disqualified yourself from this conversation. You do NOT know what you're talking about.

Okay, lets. Who uses heavy for weight bullets in their sidearms? I'll be waiting for that list because it isn't most law enforcement, rendering it an irrelevent talking point. And while the interwebs isnt always the creme de creme of firearms knowledge, a simple google of "9mm vs 45 penetration" will have a lot to say on vis-a-vis penetration values. Or doubting that, youtube video evidence.

Of course heavier for caliber weights will produce superior penetration. And so what? Energy penetrates at short ranges. Mass conservatives energy. Finding the happy medium has always been the hard part.

And heck, man. I carry a 45 everywhere. It's not as if I'm in the habit of defending 9mm.

A lighter JHP will create a devastating wound on a man IE 125 grain JHPs are generally the gold standard for quick put downs. Slick, small, high velocity bullets penetrate like mad, and tend to zip thru humans if they don't hit something crucial.
Show me apples to apples tests, and I'll take the heavier bullet every time. Even if that bullet does not penetrate a vest, it will knock the pelosi out of him, and drastically change his attitude.
For every light bullet fanatic, you will find a heavy bullet fanatic.
I mostly called you on your statement about physics.....Everything being equal, a heavy for calibre will out penetrate a lighter one. Bell and his 7mm elephant rifles pretty much proved that.

[JohndeFresno]

It is hard to keep up with all of the developments in ammunition! But there has indeed been a move these last few years in which LE embraces heavier rounds when needed. For instance, some .45 ACP ammo is manufactured in various weights for more penetration than other offerings, certainly within compliance with the required 12-18" of penetration of ballistic gel.

HST (for example, and yes my favorite) has offered law enforcement several bullet weights in its various calibers, as well as standard and +P pressure loadings. SWAT, tactical officers, street assignments and so on have different needs, at times, that is not general knowledge. I specifically use the 230 grainers in my .45; it is likely not the choice of many civilians. With that heavier round, one must choose his shots (if that ever happens in the future) in a manner that considers all that is behind the target. But these heavier rounds can penetrate cover, e.g. a barrier that an assailant might be firing from, such as a wall or door. That is my personal choice, not a recommendation for others.

The Google searches probably would not cover this, but I would bring you back to an archived study by independent LE agencies that address testing of rounds that are capable of 9mm-like penetration in the larger calibers, which still expand rather dramatically. Again, this link is:
https://app.box.com/s/j7nm91l7m7dq9jhrfjz495r3r7zejqdp

So - perhaps mainstream LE does not address itself to a heavy-for-caliber round, but in fact there are law enforcement applications that call for heavy rounds, as per the article found in the above link. In other words, if there is a myth, it is that the .45 ACP will not penetrate effectively enough to do the job needed for self-defense. That statement is just not true, anymore.

My choice for the 9mm (now) was based upon a number of factors, not just one or two:
1) Maximum concealment with reasonably effective ballistics
2) Dependability
3) Easy second shot
4) Quick reloads (firepower)
5) Accuracy at distances up to 25 yards; therefore sight radius and good sights
Last consideration was expense, although the Shield pistol is very inexpensive! The #1 seller for small 9's, I believe.
HST ammo is expensive, but 100 rounds of carry ammo will last forever. Practice FMJ ammo is cheap (reloads), fires to same point of aim.

I would hasten to add that various legitimate tests by others still convince me that the 9mm round in many configurations, made by many manufacturers, is not a round that I would want to depend upon to bring an assailant down hard and quick. But there are a few rounds like the Federal HST line that have totally changed the equation.

The photo below is from the Ammo Quest (YouTube contributor) video*, where the latest incarnation of the 9mm 147gr Std Pressure HST round is fired through 4 layers of heavy denim into calibrated 10% (FBI Standard) ballistic gel. Expansion: .60 caliber, perfect stars.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3VfWkWMzOI (currently)

[jeepnik]

Sadly many folks don't ever catch on that it isn't the firearm, or caliber that really matters.

What matters is obtaining the necessary skill with said firearm, and employing the appropriate tactics. Even then sometimes things go sideways. One simply does the best one can when TSHTF.

[Panzercat]

On a lighter note, 40s&w 180gr HST versus 4in of Haribo Ballistic Gelatin calibrated to 100% Gummy Bear.
Pulverized the round with barely enough energy to exit

[Griff]

There are 3 basic ways to conduct any "study". 1st, scientific, to analyze data then extrapolate a conclusion. Conclusions are either very evident, or the results are inconclusive. 2nd, comparative, where one lists the attributes, assigns numeric values, and calculates the differential between two or more "things". And lastly, the "gov't study", where one decides one wants an end result, and sets about justifying that result. Outright lies need to be obfuscated, and the better one is at that, the more "scientific" it might seem to the reader. The above study seems to fit in this category.

[donw]

How many ferals do you come across that wouldn't call it a day after being shot, regardless of caliber. Of those that won't go down to a 9mm, I wonder how many wouldn't go down to a hand cannon either.

As far as "the shootout" is concerned I've seen the video, and if a bunch of ferals with assault rifles were coming my way, I wouldn't give a rats rear end how big my pistol was, I'd be getting out of there.

Only shots that hit the target count and most cops miss most of their shots anyway. I would bet that an analysis of the data would show proportionately higher misses as the recoil and subsequent flinch increases.

I remember some years ago reading an FBI analysis on the subject of one shot fight stoppers. The result of that data was that the 357 was the best one shot fight stopper with a result of about 97%, and even the 44 magnum and the 45 acp couldn't match it. The 38 spl and 9mm were down a little under the 44 and 45 and even the humble 22 was in the ratings and if I remember the data correctly it wasn't that bad a performer.

i gotta go along with that...

i have seen actual footage and read about police shootouts where the officers have emptied their service weapons at nearly arm-length distances and missed every shot...

[JohndeFresno]

How many ferals do you come across that wouldn't call it a day after being shot, regardless of caliber. Of those that won't go down to a 9mm, I wonder how many wouldn't go down to a hand cannon either...

Reading this a second time, I understand now that this refers to out-of-control two legged varmints. Due to our different geographic locations and slightly different contexts at times, I though at first this referred to wild cats or pigs or dogs.

I would respectfully disagree with the above statement, at least now with the crazy "Allahu akhbar" and other deranged shooters who really don't care if they die. Current events have proven that they are not likely to drop their weapons and say, "You got me" when they are winged - that only works in the old movies.

I say, select not only a hard hitting bullet of some type for self-defense, but also one that affords you a good balance of accuracy and quick recovery for a second and third shot if necessary. If you can only handle a pipsqueak round accurately, so be it. But if you can work up to a round that has some authority, that is much better. In a situation requiring the gun to be well hidden and portable, the modern 9's and newer bullet configurations are a good option. They offer considerable tissue disruption, yet allow most shooters shoot accurately and quickly for those follow-up shots. Provided, of course, that you practice diligently - aim small, miss small.

I specifically disagree when one leaps to the conclusion that only accuracy matters, where a .22 is no different than a .45, for instance, for stopping an "Allahu akhbar" or other deranged shooter literally dead in his tracks. That does not ring true, regardless of who or which agency makes that statement. I still remember an incident in Fresno where a woman was assaulted and stabbed. She shot her assailant in the heart with a .22, and it killed him. Two days later. He didn't even know that he had been shot, and continued with his assault on the lady. It is not hard to find similar incidents throughout the U.S.

An exception that would support that statement - accuracy is everything - would be a perfect shot that penetrates the cerebellum. Otherwise, we cannot bank upon a crazed shooter "calling it a day" if you wing him with one shot, even a "fatal" shot. The 1986 FBI Miami Shootout permanently and indelibly laid that myth to rest, even with the duty ammo that was used by their dead agents. As many a rangemaster says, "You must shoot until the threat stops." Jeff Cooper's motto, "Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas" (Accuracy - Power - Speed) applies here. So does the importance of quick follow-up shots if necessary. Thus, for me, the proper 9mm load with the right mini-pistol is a great tool for deeper concealment.

The concern that I have, these days:
The very real possibility of facing a determined, adrenaline filled assailant who must be stopped, not just discouraged.

Some additional thoughts to consider: Why is it illegal to hunt deer in my state with a .22 caliber? Why do hunters use large calibers on big game? Acccuracy matters. So does the projectile and caliber, especially if one needs to put a quick stop to hostilities.

[donw]

How many ferals do you come across that wouldn't call it a day after being shot, regardless of caliber. Of those that won't go down to a 9mm, I wonder how many wouldn't go down to a hand cannon either...

Reading this a second time, I understand now that this refers to out-of-control two legged varmints. Due to our different geographic locations and slightly different contexts at times, I though at first this referred to wild cats or pigs or dogs.

I would respectfully disagree with the above statement, at least now with the crazy "Allahu akhbar" and other deranged shooters who really don't care if they die. Current events have proven that they are not likely to drop their weapons and say, "You got me" when they are winged - that only works in the old movies.

I say, push not only a hard hitting bullet of some type for self-defense, but also one that has a good balance of accuracy and quick recovery for a second and third shot if necessary. In a situation requiring you gun to be really well hidden and portable, I maintain that the modern 9's are a good option. They offer considerable tissue disruption, yet allow most shooters shoot accurately and quickly for those follow-up shots. Provided, of course, that you practice diligently - aim small, miss small.

I specifically disagree when one leaps to the conclusion that only accuracy matters, where a .22 is no different than a .45, for instance, for stopping an "Allahu akhbar" or other deranged shooter literally dead in his tracks. That does not ring true, regardless of who or which agency makes that statement. An exception that would support that statement would be a perfect shot that penetrates the cerebellum. Otherwise, we cannot bank upon a crazed shooter "calling it a day" if you wing him with one shot, even a "fatal" shot. The 1986 FBI Miami Shootout permanently and indelibly laid that myth to rest. And that is the very real concern that I have, these days - a determined, adrenaline filled assailant; at least where I live in a largely urban area.

Some thoughts to consider: Why is it illegal to hunt deer in my state with a .22 caliber? Why do hunters use large calibers on big game? Acccuracy matters. So does the projectile, especially if one needs to put a quick stop to hostilities.

i wonder that. too. i think the question would more appropriately be: "Why can't a 22 caliber centerfire be used to hunt deer?"

the 223/5.56 has been used by military and LE for many years now in terms of inflicting mortal wounds in humans. the 22-250 and 220 swift have much more fpe than the 223/5.56

deer (at least in my are of socal) don't get much larger than a large human and the 223/5.56 will dispatch them.

you must keep in mind that California is highly anti-hunting and anti-gun state who under kamala harris, gavin newsom, kevin deleon and jerry brown are doing their best to strip guns away from private ownership.

California is, one of few states that do not allow the 22 caliber centerfire to be used on deer.

there is no reasonable, or scientific reason why a 22 caliber centerfire could not take deer.

[JohndeFresno]

...California is, one of few states that do not allow the 22 caliber centerfire to be used on deer... there is no reasonable, or scientific reason why a 22 caliber centerfire could not take deer.

Don,
Leaving out all the kook politics and crazy politicos of our state, there are so-called power requirements in other states that amount to the same type of regulation. It all deals with the inhumane wounding of game, whether accurate or not.

This could open up another series of debates, but I recall many statements from Armed Service members, especially those who have been serving in our most recent battlezones, that they have no confidence in a .223 to stop a truly determined, charging enemy combatant, and prefer the .308 range of ammo or even calibers like the .50 Beowulf. Some Special Ops websites, which allow at least selective access to the public, have had their accredited members post threads about this in the past.

In Viet Nam, I remember having carried the 7.62 M-14 with full-auto selector switch when I was first in-country, and then some time after that we were given the .223 M-16's. I was very unhappy. At least we still had .30 caliber machine guns and a .50 on our ACAV's (Armored Cavalry Assault Vehicles).

We all grumbled about being forced to use a pipsqueak plastic stocked rifle versus the great .308 we had been carrying. So the Army gave our Sergeants this ballyhoo (to tell us) that the slug tumbled and tore an enemy combatant's arm off. Maybe in rare instances, but for the most part - pure baloney. I saw the results of what that round did, and no arms were torn off.

Later, it was widely published that we switched to a lighter caliber so that our more diminutive VN allies could handle the recoil. And then there was that talk about the effectiveness of wounding an enemy rather than killing him so that two others would be taken from the battlefield, caring for their wounded comrade.

I guess we could chase this weasel all around town. But I agree that a .22 LR, at least, should not be used to harvest deer. As mentioned above about cops, many hunters ain't that great a shot, either. A larger caliber will at least bleed out game rather quickly and mercifully.

So for the .223 that you mention, I don't know about the humaneness of one of those with a less than perfect shot, such as one in the brain. Maybe somebody can describe how effective that caliber is, who lives in another state. Based upon what I know of that tiny caliber up to this point, I would never hunt with one, legal or not.