.45 Colt COAL using LBT LFN in an 1892 cycling

[BigMike349]

Hi Levergunners!

This is my first post after becoming a member so I just want to start off by saying Hi and Thank you for letting me join this forum!

so the long story:

I don't come from a family that is very pro gun so most of what I have learned is from the past few years of occasional research, so please excuse my ignorance. My first gun purchase was a Winchester 1892 sporter chambered in .45 Colt a few years back. I later purchased a 7.5 inch blued Ruger new vaquero in .45 Colt with the intent of being able to have a rifle capable of legally hunting deer in my state (Maryland). I soon realized that in order to meet the minimum muzzle energy require to hunt deer with a rifle in Maryland(1200 ft/lbs) , I would most like require a +P .45 colt load that while doable for my Winchester, would be dangerous for my Ruger. So now I'm currently in the process of selling the New Vaquero, and researching handloading the +P .45 colt that could meet my 1,200 ft lbs and be a capable hunting load while also being a good load for a Ruger Blackhawk Bisley in .45 colt model 0447 (what will be the replacement for the new vaquero).

So in my research I reached out to Veral Smith and he recommended that I use the LBT LFN with a gas check to achieve the ideal load for the Winchester/Ruger combination, and I have read that the LBT LFN profile cycles well through the Winchester 1892 action (unlike swc style which I have read can get stuck more readily due to the sharp shoulder). In researching the nose profile, I have seen that the nose to crimp grove length (taken from the measurements of the LBT LFN .45 colt bullets on the Montana bullet works website) lead me to believe that the Cartridge OAL length with LFN .45 colt bullets in the 320, 300 and 280 grain weights would exceed the 1.6 standard ( their 300 grain for example lists a nose to crimp grove length of .370, plus the standard length of a .45 colt of 1.285 case gives a COAL of 1.655). Also in my research I have read that many of the 1892 rifles in .45 colt can't reliably cycle anything exceeding the 1.6 standard length.

so for the short story:

Does anyone have experience with the LBT LFN in .45 colt running through an 1892 and if so what are your experiences? Does it cycle reliably? Do you modify the length in any way to get it to run reliably? Have you used this bullet type in a revolver as well, and if so what are your experiences?

Any advice is greatly appreciated but just FYI, Since this question involves hand loading, I will have to confirm any advice for modification from standard hand loading practice through a reputable source.

Thanks in advance!
Mike

[Chuck 100 yd]

Welcome to the forum. I usually let the bullets crimp groove decide the COAL for me and then decide if that bullet is going to work for me in that particular gun by its ability to feed,function ,and of cource its accuracy.
Sometimes that is not the best way to go if you are investing in a mold. If you are buying bullets, most casters will be glad to send/sell sample batches of the bullet in question for you to try out.

[missionary5155]

Howdy BigMike and welcome to Lever guns !
I have a 92 Winchester in 45 Colt but I am in Peru right now and do not have access to reloading book or the carbine.
I used the Lee 265 RFNGC in my 92 and a Ruger Blackhawk for many shooting opportunities. That bullet will make your need.
I personally stay away from the caliber 45 LFN design in lever guns (have near all of them) unless I am prepared to segregate an amount of brass to that bullet for that lever gun. Most any long nose cast design can be made to work just by shortening the brass to achieve the needed OAL. There are other mechanical fixes you can make to the rifle but shortening brass is the easiest.
Your model 92 will easily make the needed powder factor using the LBT WFN design. These have a slightly shorter OAL when loaded in standard length 45 Colt brass and work in all my caliber 45 lever guns.

H110, Win 296 and other powders of similar burn rate are going to be your friend getting these heavy cast to your needed velocity.
45 Colt is one of the best cartridges to have in a model 92. You have a winner waiting in the stables.
Mike in Peru

[Blaine]

Howdy BigMike and welcome to Lever guns !
I have a 92 Winchester in 45 Colt but I am in Peru right now and do not have access to reloading book or the carbine.
I used the Lee 265 RFNGC in my 92 and a Ruger Blackhawk for many shooting opportunities. That bullet will make your need.
I personally stay away from the caliber 45 LFN design in lever guns (have near all of them) unless I am prepared to segregate an amount of brass to that bullet for that lever gun. Most any long nose cast design can be made to work just by shortening the brass to achieve the needed OAL. There are other mechanical fixes you can make to the rifle but shortening brass is the easiest.
Your model 92 will easily make the needed powder factor using the LBT WFN design. These have a slightly shorter OAL when loaded in standard length 45 Colt brass and work in all my caliber 45 lever guns.

H110, Win 296 and other powders of similar burn rate are going to be your friend getting these heavy cast to your needed velocity.
45 Colt is one of the best cartridges to have in a model 92. You have a winner waiting in the stables.
Mike in Peru

IIRC, won't shortening the brass raise pressure compared to the same load published for the usual brass length? Certainly ok if you are aware of what the difference is. I had to do this for an 1886EL, but I never pushed the load all that hard. A Chrony would be of help adjusting a light load up to the FPS of the published load.

[Pete44ru]

.

Welcome aboard, Mike !

I would suggest dropping a PM to a fellow forum member, and eminent Model 92 gunsmith Nate Kiowa Jones (aka: Steve)

Here's his website: http://www.stevesgunz.com

.

[Griff]

and Welcome to THE Forum!

I have 45 Colts, an 1892 (Rossi) and a WFN mold. But, since I'm using the WFN in 3rd Gen Colt SAAs and prefer to keep my investment safe and sound, I don't exceed recommended velocities & pressures for that "platform"... (just a little dig for those few EBR types)...

And I've loaded my WFN bullets in the .45Colt for about 3 decades. Out of the handgun they're very nice shooters... But, because mine are of the 185 grain weight class, they didn't do so well out of my rifles... Due to the small amount of lube they can carry, they didn't perform well accuracy wise from my 1st 45Colt rifle, a 24" barreled Uberti 1873... again, keeping pressures in keeping with the SAA as the 1873 ain't the brick outhouse the 1892 is! So, I'm afraid that my experience would correlate to your endeavor.

However, depending on just how much weight your WFN is carrying, you may or may not have issues with feeding. Mostly as the 1892 is a angled carrier, hitting the roof of the chamber before the rim can come up into line with the chamber. Not an uncommon occurrence with heavy, wide meplat bullets seated out to "normal" length, leaving case volume to where one can use published data reliably.

With the Winchester 1892 and Marlin 1984, you're almost, always better off using a Round Flat Nose style bullet. Even in the 1866 & 1873s this profile will give the most reliable feeding.

The COAL I load to for all my leveration rifles (1873, 1892 & 1894), is just 1.590". This gives me plenty of clearance in the carrier mortise of both 1873 and they can easily make the turn from angled upward to horizontal without interference in the 1892.

And I have no problems using 45Colt +P loadings thru my 1892 Rossi. Tho' I will admit to being on the cautious side. And keep these rounds well segregated from my normal 45Colt loads. Which brings me to my last point. 1200ft/lbs muzzle energy is a boatload of horsepower! I don't see any 45Colt Ruger/Contender loads that will make that. And, it certainly doesn't take that much to kill deer.

[BigMike349]

All,

Thanks so much for your input.

Chuck 100 yd - I have read that montana bullet works does not provide samples to try. do you know anyone else who would provide samples of the gas checked LBT LFN?

missionary5155 - from my calculations I would have to drive the 265 gr bullet 1420 FPS to make 1200 Ft lbs. I'm not sure if this would be possible based on my research, but I don't really know for sure. I had read that the WFN were not as good at distances compared to the LFN and the length from nose to crimp grove is only about .015 shorter, still making the coal greater than 1.6. would the .015 really make a difference?

BlaineG - I agree, and I don't think I would trim the case as I will be pushing these bullets hard and don't want to increase the pressures

Pete44ru - I sent Steve an email from his site a few month back asking about possible mods for my winchester. this is what he told me regarding feeding:

"Because of the dimensional variations in the parts and how they stack up each gun can be slightly different. Then, there is the problem with the cart guides Win/Miruko uses. They still use the cart guide configuration of the original 92’s. The problem is those were all bottleneck carts. Bottlenecks always feed better than straightwall ammo, whether it is a rifle cal or a pistol cal. That's because you have a small diameter bullet going into a really big hole by comparison, the bottleneck chamber being much like a funnel. The original Winchester 92's were designed to work with bottleneck ammo in the 1.5" to 1.6" OAL with round nose flat point bullets. Ammo like 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 and 25-20.These modern straight wall ammo 92’s are a lot like semi-auto handguns. There’s just some ammo they aren’t going to work well with. Bottom line is you will need to try different loads to see what it likes. The easiest way to do that is ask the various bullet makes for sample bullets (most are glad to do that, no charge) then hand load some dummy rounds to see how well they do."

Since the LBT LFN design is basically a rnfp bullet I figure it should work as he suggests, with the exception of the COAL. As to the testing dummy rounds, I wanted to first see if there was a consensus as towards their functioning before putting the time and energy into it. As I'm not familiar with practical firearms knowledge (I just research, so it is all theoretical) I wouldn't know what to do if I got a round jammed, so I prefer to only attempt what someone has done successfully. I'm glad to know he is on the forum, thanks for the heads up!

Griff - while I agree that a standard RNFP bullet would work most reliably in the 92, working to get a standard lets say 255 gr RNFP up to 1200ft lbs would require a velocity of ~1460 fps, which I doubt I could do within the 32,000 CUP limit for +P .45 colt. In regards to making sure to segregate the +P from standard loads, this is why I want to replace the new vaquero with the bisley, that way any .45 colt round that I make up to 32,000 CUP would work in any .45 colt firearm I own. while I understand 1,200 FT lbs is a lot for a .45 colt, it certainly seems doable. for instance If you reference John Linebaugh's article on the .45 colt +P loadings, and assume between 50-100 extra FPS when shot from a 24 inch barrel, you can certainly get there with the max loads. While I'm sure a deer could be taken with less, I need to stick to what the law allows.

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/d ... e_myth.htm

Thanks all!
Mike

[earlmck]

Welcome to the forum BigMike. I haven't shot the LFN style in my .45 levergun: I've been using Lee's 300 grain (casts more like 315 from my mold) which would be more like the LBT WFN bullet. It feeds fairly decent but I'll bet the LFN would feed smoother. If I wanted to use a 300 or 320 grain LFN I would stuff the case with about 20 grains of H110 and seat that LFN bullet to the 1.6" length and let the powder compression keep it from setting back rather than a firm crimp (I'd use just enough crimp to bring the case down against the bullet and iron out the bell I put in to load the lead bullets). But I'm one of those "extreme mo-dinka" guys Griff is warning you not to emulate.

I have done that very thing with a 300 grain 44 cal LFN in a Rossi m92 44 mag. It accepts a longer COAL with the LFN profile and feeds nicely. That's the one I would use on elk if I took that particular rifle. Uh -- except that I had a shoulder replacement surgery a few months ago and have sworn off loads with that much kick, at least until I gain more confidence in the plastic/steel thingy.

You won't have any trouble getting all the foot-pounds you want with a 300 grain LFN and H110 or W296 (they are the same powder these days) out of your levergun. And it is going to give you more like 200 fps more than the revolver with H110 type powders. You'll be looking at 1400 fps easy enough from the rifle. That should kill a deer if you stick to kinda' smallish ones...

[w30wcf]

Mike,
Welcome to the forum. One thing that can happen with large meplat bullets in '92 is that the nose of the cartridge, if large enough and loaded long enough can possibly depress the forward portion of the cartridge stop during chambering which will allow the next cartridge in the magazine to enter under the lifter, thus locking the action.

I had that experience with a Rossi copy of a '92 in .357. I had to remove the magazine tube, spring and remaining cartridges to pull the cartridge out from under the lifter.

For deer, a 250 fr RNFP works just fine. I like a capacity load of 4227 (about 26 grs depending on the powder lot and the brass used) for a 45 Colt +P+ which does 1724 f.p.s. in my Marlin's 24" barrel at about 30,000 CUP. In my Ruger Blackhawk (7 1/2") velocity runs 1415 fps.

Matts Bullets offers a nice two lube grooved 250 gr cast bullet with about a .30" meplat.

For a heavier bullet, I was reading on another forum that the Lee 300 RF (Montana Bullet Works offers them) gave better accuracy than the LBT WFN type at 100 yards for some folks.

w30wcf

[guntar]

Welcome to the forum.
I have been loading for and using a very similar rifle to yours for several years ( 1892 Miroku-built Winchester with 24" barrel). I have had no trouble getting 1600+ feet per second with a Hornady 250 gr. XTP bullet and 16.5 gr. of 2400. This load is listed in my Lyman reloading manual as being safe (maximum) in a Colt SAA so pressure in your rifle should be no problem. Every deer or feral hog I have shot with this load has given up the ghost rather quickly. If my calculations are correct this gives something over 1400 ft-lbs of energy and solves your legal problem. These velocities are chronographed, not guessed at. Feeding and function has been flawless. The reason that I wanted to make sure of the lower pressures is That I also own a Colt New Frontier and wanted a load that, if inadvertently loaded in the Colt wouldn't cause a problem.
Having said all that, I would use the heavier loads only for sighting-in and when actually hunting. The rest of the time I would shoot a lighter, more economical load that both your handgun and rifle like. Much more pleasant to shoot and easier on the guns.
I don't have any experience hot-rodding the 45 Colt in a Ruger handgun, but there are plenty of very knowledgeable people on this forum that do , so I don't have any advice on that score.

Hog Busters.jpg

These are the two 45 Colts that I have experience with.

[Griff]

...I have been loading for and using a very similar rifle to yours for several years ( 1892 Miroku-built Winchester with 24" barrel). I have had no trouble getting 1600+ feet per second with a Hornady 250 gr. XTP bullet and 16.5 gr. of 2400...

...For deer, a 250 fr RNFP works just fine. I like a capacity load of 4227 (about 26 grs depending on the powder lot and the brass used) for a 45 Colt +P+ which does 1724 f.p.s. in my Marlin's 24" barrel at about 30,000 CUP. In my Ruger Blackhawk (7 1/2") velocity runs 1415 fps...

Based on those reports of personal experience, I take back what I said. And make a note self to do some more experimentin'! Now that I have a chronograph, I have more confidence in pressin' the envelope.

But I will still caution anyone to start well below the maximum and increase loads in small steps.

Earle, you didn't get this old by bein' a "extreme mo-dinka" guy!

[M. M. Wright]

Well BigMike349, I'm a 44-40 shooter so I don't have any advice for you except it sounds like it would be easy to make that energy level in your rifle with the standard 250 grain bullet. A gas checked bullet will not be a problem up to the fps you need. I think earl has the answer but then he usually does.

And welcome to the forum.

[jd45]

Hello BigMike349, and welcome to the forum! Allow me to clarify something. While the rifle you may use to hunt deer with in Maryland is required to shoot ammo giving 1200FT LBS. of muzzle energy, a handgun is only required to use ammo producing 700FT LBS. of energy. So you'll have to keep the ammo for each separated. What I did to my Rossi LSI PUMA .45 Colt carbine to enable it to feed longer coal carts was to take a dremel tool & relieve a thing people call a "backstop" at the rear of the cartridge carrier. Just a little at a time until I got where I wanted it to be. I don't know whether you want to go that route but it's one way of accomplishing your goal. Good luck & hope you get your deer next season, jd45

[BigSky56]

Mike349 welcome, I run a 255 rnfn cast from 900 to 1400 fps from a 7.5" ruger havent checked velocity from my 24" 92 I guess 2-300 fps increase on the top load. the loaddatta is on accurate arms website with AA 5744 powder the top load is 30K psi. danny

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Hey Guys,
Keep in mind, the rossi 92's have different cart guides than the Miroku Win 92's. Rossi figured out a long time back that if you change the angle of the rim slot so they bring the back end up sooner the gun will be less ammo sensitive. The Wins have cart guides more like the originals. That sounds good but the originals were bottleneck which always feed better than straight walls.
That said even the rossi's tend to stutter with the big up front heavy's. As mentioned above the bullet tends to hit the top inside of the chamber before it can make the turn.

[BigMike349]

Mike,
Welcome to the forum. One thing that can happen with large meplat bullets in '92 is that the nose of the cartridge, if large enough and loaded long enough can possibly depress the forward portion of the cartridge stop during chambering which will allow the next cartridge in the magazine to enter under the lifter, thus locking the action.

I had that experience with a Rossi copy of a '92 in .357. I had to remove the magazine tube, spring and remaining cartridges to pull the cartridge out from under the lifter.

For deer, a 250 fr RNFP works just fine. I like a capacity load of 4227 (about 26 grs depending on the powder lot and the brass used) for a 45 Colt +P+ which does 1724 f.p.s. in my Marlin's 24" barrel at about 30,000 CUP. In my Ruger Blackhawk (7 1/2") velocity runs 1415 fps.

Matts Bullets offers a nice two lube grooved 250 gr cast bullet with about a .30" meplat.

For a heavier bullet, I was reading on another forum that the Lee 300 RF (Montana Bullet Works offers them) gave better accuracy than the LBT WFN type at 100 yards for some folks.

w30wcf

Do you do anything to prevent excess leading at those speeds with a 250 RNFP? Is it gas checked?

[BigMike349]

Hello BigMike349, and welcome to the forum! Allow me to clarify something. While the rifle you may use to hunt deer with in Maryland is required to shoot ammo giving 1200FT LBS. of muzzle energy, a handgun is only required to use ammo producing 700FT LBS. of energy. So you'll have to keep the ammo for each separated. What I did to my Rossi LSI PUMA .45 Colt carbine to enable it to feed longer coal carts was to take a dremel tool & relieve a thing people call a "backstop" at the rear of the cartridge carrier. Just a little at a time until I got where I wanted it to be. I don't know whether you want to go that route but it's one way of accomplishing your goal. Good luck & hope you get your deer next season, jd45

As each energy requirement is a minimum, I wouldn't have to keep the ammo for each separated as long as the only ammo I produce meets the requirement in the rifle, and functions well/accurately in both firearms. If the ammo meets the requirement of the rifle, it would certainly exceed the energy requirement of the handgun, assuming I decide to use the handgun for hunting. At this time I'm really only interested in hunting with my 1892 and having the same +P .45 colt ammo function in the handgun (say at the range).

[BigMike349]

Kind of a tangent from the topic, but since I've never done hand loading, would be better for me to start with something like the suggested hornady hp xtp 250 gr for a +P deer legal load rather than tinker with a bullet profile that might have too large a metplat, too high a pressure or too long a COAL? Would the xtps feed reliably?

[Griff]

Kind of a tangent from the topic, but since I've never done hand loading, would be better for me to start with something like the suggested hornady hp xtp 250 gr for a +P deer legal load rather than tinker with a bullet profile that might have too large a metplat, too high a pressure or too long a COAL? Would the xtps feed reliably?

Mine work. Crimped in the crimp groove.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Kind of a tangent from the topic, but since I've never done hand loading, would be better for me to start with something like the suggested hornady hp xtp 250 gr for a +P deer legal load rather than tinker with a bullet profile that might have too large a metplat, too high a pressure or too long a COAL? Would the xtps feed reliably?

Good choice. But, be sure and get the XTP-FP's (flat point) not the HP's (hollow point) The HP's have been known to load up with hide and hair and fail to expand. The FP's are actually soft point seem to work more consistant.

[Tycer]

Mike,
Welcome to the forum. One thing that can happen with large meplat bullets in '92 is that the nose of the cartridge, if large enough and loaded long enough can possibly depress the forward portion of the cartridge stop during chambering which will allow the next cartridge in the magazine to enter under the lifter, thus locking the action.

I had that experience with a Rossi copy of a '92 in .357. I had to remove the magazine tube, spring and remaining cartridges to pull the cartridge out from under the lifter.

For deer, a 250 fr RNFP works just fine. I like a capacity load of 4227 (about 26 grs depending on the powder lot and the brass used) for a 45 Colt +P+ which does 1724 f.p.s. in my Marlin's 24" barrel at about 30,000 CUP. In my Ruger Blackhawk (7 1/2") velocity runs 1415 fps.

Matts Bullets offers a nice two lube grooved 250 gr cast bullet with about a .30" meplat.

For a heavier bullet, I was reading on another forum that the Lee 300 RF (Montana Bullet Works offers them) gave better accuracy than the LBT WFN type at 100 yards for some folks.

w30wcf

Do you do anything to prevent excess leading at those speeds with a 250 RNFP? Is it gas checked?

You'll need to slug your barrel. If the bullet is couple thousands over your bore you won't have any problem .

[Tycer]

I have rifles and a little Colt revolver in 32-20. I keep my rifle loads separate by making my revolver loads in nickel cases. If you use a leather cartridge belt brass will turn it green, nickle won't.