Jeff Cooper cartridge critique

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:37 pm

Whenever someone mentions the .25 ACP, I cannot help but remember the colonel's acidic assessment of this round in his section of the Outdoor Life "Complete Book of Shooting."
On the .25, he minces no words:
"This is a 1906 design that should never have happened. It is adapted to cheap, blow-back pocket pistols which are useful only as threats. Anyone shot with this cartridge is apt to become emotional and resort to violence."
Nor does he pull any punches describing the various .32 revolver cartridges as of 1965:
"Except for the .32 Smith and Wesson Long, which is an accurate light target load, these rounds are a complete waste of time. These are the cartridges for the bureau-drawer-specials with which badly trained children have accidents."
And of the .380 ACP:
"If one simply had to have a minimum pistol for purposes of concealment, a .380 with this load (the Shooting Associates 100-grain bullet at 925) might do. I wouldn't stake my own life on it, but then I don't ride on bald tires, while many do."
He had a way with words didn't he?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:44 pm

His insistence on 45acp is legend...
Just one thing....when I carried a S&W AirLite, .22LR, I could empty the entire cyl in a chest sized target in about 1-1.5 second at SD range....Of course, that's only good for one BG.......

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:13 pm

The Colonel was a smart man.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:15 pm

Blaine, he also was fond of the .455 Webley, with 265 grain bullet at 600: "In the R.I.C. "Bulldog" snubby it is possibly the best undercover sidearm ever made."
Now here I am with a .380 LCP for myself and a .22 Magnum LCR for my wife. I do not think I would have enjoyed the colonel's approbation.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:26 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:Blaine, he also was fond of the .455 Webley, with 265 grain bullet at 600: "In the R.I.C. "Bulldog" snubby it is possibly the best undercover sidearm ever made."
Now here I am with a .380 LCP for myself and a .22 Magnum LCR for my wife. I do not think I would have enjoyed the colonel's approbation.

My LCP with the built in Crimson Trace is my EDC these days....I'm looking around for some Buffalo Bore .380 ammo.... 1000+ fps, and 38 Special ballistics.....

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:12 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:Now here I am with a .380 LCP for myself and a .22 Magnum LCR for my wife. I do not think I would have enjoyed the colonel's approbation.

Not so much the 22 WMR, but the 380 ACP has supposedly improved quite a bit with newer ammunition not available when he issued his condemnation of the cartridge.

1. BG-encounter not likely at all - I'll probably have a 22 LR or whatever I'm target-shooting with or hunting with.
2. BG-encounter possible but unlikely - smallish, convenient handgun like the LCP or SIG-938.
3. BG-encounter not unlikely - if I can't find excuse to stay home, full-size 1911 or something like that.
4. BG-encounter very likely - not going to go wherever that is, but if I had to, I'd have a long-gun.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:53 pm

I guess the punk that put a .25 into the skull of his home room teacher never got the P- 0 - S memo

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:11 pm

Years ago I was all about the .45. Both colt and acp. Then I started to carry a .380 or .38spl from time to time. The became increasingly carried rounds.

Recent events have jolted my out of my fat, dumb and happy state. I'm back to .45 acp and .45 colt. It more than likely I will never need a handgun. But if I do, I want one that works. The .45 colt and .45 acp work.

kaschi · Post by **kaschi** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:21 pm

Jeff Cooper is one of my favorite writers of all time. He and my cousin are to blame for my love of the 45 acp from the 70s up to today. But I don't feel under gunned with the 9mm either.

TWHBC · Post by **TWHBC** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:36 am

I am going with 2, either a .38 special or a 9mm, to suit my present circumstances. Having had .380's before, and being around various .32's, just feel that .356 is as small as necessary when things go bump, sour, ugly, etc. and a long gun is unavailable or impractical. However, having a gun, any gun, is better than nothing, to equalize things if darkness looms.
Been reading Cooper since he was up in Big Bear, and having lived near there when he was still there, regret never checking it out then?

BrianSH · Post by **BrianSH** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:48 am

Years ago I re-evaluated my personal threat encounter level.
I'm not a leo. I'm no longer in the military. I'm not going to be getting into gun fights across the street.
My close range interpersonal confrontation management situation will likely be in a parking lot while I'm putting the groceries in the trunk at 10-15 feet. Or someone trying to grab me out of my car at a red light. (Happened to others in Miami during the McDuffee riots in the late 70's). This calls for something light and fast.

Yes I have read my Cooper (love his writing style). But I've also read up on the SAS (and the magic they accomplished with their High Powers). And of course other certified head-knucklers, GSG-9, GIGIN, COBRA, et al.
But I've also read my Ed Lovette, and how nuts is it to write a book these days on the Snubby Revolver, when real men only carry $3000 super custom 1911s. Great book by the way, with numerous tips on per-sec.

And lastly, I've read the armed citizen column for years. Not many magnums, nor big bores are in evidence there.

If your attacker is really doped up, nothing less than a flame thrower is gonna stop him anyway, so caliber debates are futile. (Maybe a Bagwell Bowie, or Charlie Porter "Friend")

Now that said, during holidays and such, I do carry a little heavier than normal because crime is up a bit.
Remember, the first rule is to have barking irons with you. Wild Bill made his rep with 36 Navy Colts. and that's less than a 38 Spec.
- Brian

Merle · Post by **Merle** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:22 am

BlaineG wrote:
Bill in Oregon wrote:Blaine, he also was fond of the .455 Webley, with 265 grain bullet at 600: "In the R.I.C. "Bulldog" snubby it is possibly the best undercover sidearm ever made."

My LCP with the built in Crimson Trace is my EDC these days....I'm looking around for some Buffalo Bore .380 ammo.... 1000+ fps, and 38 Special ballistics.....

Why don't you just go online and order it direct from BB?

hayabusa · Post by **hayabusa** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:10 pm

Blaine does any lgs stock the BB ammo where you live, if not I think like Merle from PA.

But the thrill of the hunt makes looking for something elusive exciting to me.

busa

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:51 pm

hayabusa wrote:Blaine does any lgs stock the BB ammo where you live, if not I think like Merle from PA.

But the thrill of the hunt makes looking for something elusive exciting to me.

busa

My local Cabela's has BB off and on. I didn't consider mail ordering it.....

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:06 pm

Cooper was world-class curmudgeon who spoke his mind.

I wonder how high the stack of bodies from those unworthy cartridges might actually be.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:51 pm

True a 45 or 10mm is an excellent defensive arm for the uniformed LEO and combat infantry man. But in the real world of civilian CCW carry, for last ditch defensive pistols and your not looking for trouble. the .22, .32, .380, pocket pistols just may defer an attack and save your life, if u need to use it. On the other hand, it doesn't make for testosterone fueld fairy tales to sell magazine subscriptions and "DEFENSIVE HANDGUNS" that 99% of CCW carriers will leave in the nightstand.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:56 pm

hayabusa wrote:Blaine does any lgs stock the BB ammo where you live, if not I think like Merle from PA.

But the thrill of the hunt makes looking for something elusive exciting to me.

busa

I got some Garrett and Buffalo Bore in 45-70 from a nearby Turner's a few years ago. Don't know if they still carry it. By the way, unless I'm headed to Africa or up north for big bears or down to Australia for some of those big water buffalo I won't ever need to fire any of those again. Fun once, but then it's been done so no reason to abuse myself.

Oh, I forgot, they would probably be good on a T-Rex and certainly a raptor.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:01 pm

BrianSH wrote:Years ago I re-evaluated my personal threat encounter level.
I'm not a leo. I'm no longer in the military. I'm not going to be getting into gun fights across the street.
My close range interpersonal confrontation management situation will likely be in a parking lot while I'm putting the groceries in the trunk at 10-15 feet. Or someone trying to grab me out of my car at a red light. (Happened to others in Miami during the McDuffee riots in the late 70's). This calls for something light and fast.

Yes I have read my Cooper (love his writing style). But I've also read up on the SAS (and the magic they accomplished with their High Powers). And of course other certified head-knucklers, GSG-9, GIGIN, COBRA, et al.
But I've also read my Ed Lovette, and how nuts is it to write a book these days on the Snubby Revolver, when real men only carry $3000 super custom 1911s. Great book by the way, with numerous tips on per-sec.

And lastly, I've read the armed citizen column for years. Not many magnums, nor big bores are in evidence there.

If your attacker is really doped up, nothing less than a flame thrower is gonna stop him anyway, so caliber debates are futile. (Maybe a Bagwell Bowie, or Charlie Porter "Friend")

Now that said, during holidays and such, I do carry a little heavier than normal because crime is up a bit.
Remember, the first rule is to have barking irons with you. Wild Bill made his rep with 36 Navy Colts. and that's less than a 38 Spec.
- Brian

Until very recently I was right there with you. Like I said, and it applies only to me, I was fat (well I guess I could loose some weight and deal with that), dumb and happy. Frankly had I been in that room in San Bernadino with what I was carrying that day I'm sure the firearms I had would not be anywhere near the best available to me.

All.45 acps and colts are heavy (about the lightest is my AMT Backup and it is only suitable as a backup). But, I'll carry the weight, heck carrying the extra weight might help me loose some weight.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:22 pm

I would not want to get shot by anything including a Daisy RR. Col. Cooper lived his life prepared at all time for mortal combat from a heavily armed and determined foe or foes. I once saw him describe his house's front entrance and his building and personal pre=planned response. It was designed to resist attack and entry from trained adversaries with automatic weapons. My front entrance is a little more welcoming.

I respect the Colonel a great deal. I agree with his scout design and consider the Ruger version with the supplied peep sight a formidable defence weapon. I also agree with his evaluation of the humble lever action 30-30 or 32 Special in my case. My Alberta Assault Rifle!

We cannot CC and handgun ownership is controlled but I once owned a Colt 45 ACP Series 70 and trained with the the Browning HP in the Canadian Forces. If forced to fight I think I would prefer a revolver. I watch too much real crime TV and it is amazing how many folks survived gun fights because of jams.

I watched an interview with a narcotics officer in some urban hell hole. The officers were very concerned by 380s and 25s. They felt they bounced around in dangerous erratic fashion if one was hit. But like I started I wouldn't want either bouncing around in me! I might add that I considered the 45ACP a decent black bear gun for hiking if only they would have let me. The 444 is much better by the way.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:32 pm

Something about Cooper's words have always stayed with me: The thing about "badly trained children." I'll bet not one in 10,000 kids today are taught at an early age not to touch a firearm, as they must always be considered loaded, or how to safely check one. This is why our liberal "progressive" cadres are gnawing away at the substance of our firearms heritage.

hayabusa · Post by **hayabusa** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:56 pm

A friend of mine in Shreveport, LA used to run a salvage yard. The owner had taken the cash from the register and left the drawer open for all to see that it was empty as yard was in a predominantly black and bad spot on the very outskirts of town. Outside of city limits. One evening a black gent strolls in an sticks his 25 ACP in friends face and demands all the money in register. Friend shows him it is empty. Man says well I'll just kill you. My friend drops to the floor, said bad man reaches over counter and shoots until the 25 ACP jams, then leaves.
Ambulance to hospital, head shaved to operate and low and behold none of the bullets penetrated into his skull. The Surgeon just pulled them out with with large tweezers.
My friend left and only had a bad headache the next couple of days, also a lot of hair missing.

busa

hayabusa · Post by **hayabusa** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:12 pm

This salvage yard moved to main hwy. the next year and now sported a loan shop to finance the cars they built up to sale. One of the young black men working in the yard building cars up was playing a tape deck very loud & a 17 year old black (very nice young man) ask him to turn volume down, he gets upset off and goes out to his car , returns with (you guessed it) a 25 ACP and proceeds to shoot him until it jams (seems to be a rec-curing theme doesn't it?) then he leaves. To the hospital as he seems to be dying. Nope, he had went into shock. Was okay as the bullets did not penetrate the flesh on his arm!
The doufas that shot him was back on the street before the yard closed and other fellow was out of ER.

These are true stories.
busa

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:43 pm

And you also have the true stories of brown bear being killed with a .22 LR. For every story that you can come up with mouse caliber pistol that failed in defensive shoot out's, one can post huge beasts being killed with what is perceived as inadequate calibers. African poachers successfully taking elephants with the .762x39MM, Inuit Eskimo's harvesting seals and polar bears for generations with the .222 Rem. A .25 ACP in the eye socket will kill ANYTHING. The Mafia's kill ratio is pretty good using a .22. Audie Murphy's WW2 combat weapon of choice was an M1 carbine. A full auto M4 is tough to conceal on a Miami beach in August. a Keltec.32 ACP a little easier.

m.wun · Post by **m.wun** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:07 pm

I love to read his writings and Elmers also. BUT they didn't have the bullets we have today! Some of the bullets we
have now changes the field a bit.

hayabusa · Post by **hayabusa** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:46 am

The two incidents happened in 1981 or 1982.
busa

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:02 am

I traded my Glock 26 for a Glock 43 (9mm) this year, use it as my "BUG", flatter, lighter, just as accurate (I carry two xtra mags). I also carry a Ruger LCR in .357 magnum with two speed-strips from time to time... :)

G43_Left1__54397.1426783813.1000.1200 (1).jpg

RU5450.png

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:39 am

1892 wrote:I traded my Glock 26 for a Glock 43 (9mm) this year, use it as my "BUG", flatter, lighter, just as accurate (I carry two xtra mags). I also carry a Ruger LCR in .357 magnum with two speed-strips from time to time...

G43_Left1__54397.1426783813.1000.1200 (1).jpg

RU5450.png

I also acquired a 43 to go along with my Glock 27. The 43 is easier to conceal and carry. With those 2, I think I got the Big bore power , mag capacity and concealment pretty well covered. Still find it easier to slip the Keltec. 32 in pocket ,though. Life is full of trade offs.

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:58 pm

The minor calibers do kill a lot of folks.... just not fast enough in many cases to take the fight out of someone quick enough.

Yada yada yada... no one in their right mind is going to stand around to get shot with a .25 or .380. And no doubt that they have "worked" many times over the years. However- you cannot argue with blood loss and central nervous trauma when you really, really need some one to sit down and behave. Now, not after they continue to bite, hit, shoot and stab you some more.

For every body who's been stacked by a minor caliber... I bet we can find ten folks who would have liked to stopped the fight sooner.

Yada yada yada..."shot placement is the key".... sure... and it's easy enough to kill the 10 ring when the cardboard is not shooting back or bobbing and weaving to get a better angle on you. And yea... center mass is the is the place you need to hit. See... "center mass" is the center of what you have left to aim at... and an oblique shot into the thorax is a lot deeper to the goodies than square away. Maybe that's why anybody who needs to shoot somebody is looking for 12 inches of penetration and retained bullet weight?

Carry the largest and most controllable caliber and platform you can manage. People shot with bullets from handguns usually need shooting twice to stop and conform their behavior to societal norms... and 85% of handgun shooting victims will survive long enough to carry on the attack with one bullet in them.

I have a 25 a 22 and a 380... and they are tertiary to a larger pistol or carried as a primary only when I cannot carry a larger platform and that is not often. Times have changed... the people who want to hurt you are better at it than ever before and they run in bunches.

Bullard4075 · Post by **Bullard4075** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:15 pm

Hillbilly wrote:The minor calibers do kill a lot of folks.... just not fast enough in many cases to take the fight out of someone quick enough.

Yada yada yada... no one in their right mind is going to stand around to get shot with a .25 or .380. And no doubt that they have "worked" many times over the years. However- you cannot argue with blood loss and central nervous trauma when you really, really need some one to sit down and behave. Now, not after they continue to bite, hit, shoot and stab you some more.

For every body who's been stacked by a minor caliber... I bet we can find ten folks who would have liked to stopped the fight sooner.

Yada yada yada..."shot placement is the key".... sure... and it's easy enough to kill the 10 ring when the cardboard is not shooting back or bobbing and weaving to get a better angle on you. And yea... center mass is the is the place you need to hit. See... "center mass" is the center of what you have left to aim at... and an oblique shot into the thorax is a lot deeper to the goodies than square away. Maybe that's why anybody who needs to shoot somebody is looking for 12 inches of penetration and retained bullet weight?

Carry the largest and most controllable caliber and platform you can manage. People shot with bullets from handguns usually need shooting twice to stop and conform their behavior to societal norms... and 85% of handgun shooting victims will survive long enough to carry on the attack with one bullet in them.

I have a 25 a 22 and a 380... and they are tertiary to a larger pistol or carried as a primary only when I cannot carry a larger platform and that is not often. Times have changed... the people who want to hurt you are better at it than ever before and they run in bunches.

+1

wolfdog · Post by **wolfdog** » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:21 am

I would carry a .22lr before a .25 acp hands down. I saw a fellow back in 1977 get shot in the temple with a 25 acp at contact range proceed to take the pistol out of the guy that shot him hand and beat the snot out of him with it. On the 22 side I have killed a fair amount of pigs in traps with 22 lr and finished off a couple of deer with headshot from a 22 and they worked very well.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:02 pm

<---- What I'm thinking when someone lumps .380 in with a .25 acp.....

Palmtreee · Post by **Palmtreee** » Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:58 pm

tman wrote:And you also have the true stories of brown bear being killed with a .22 LR. For every story that you can come up with mouse caliber pistol that failed in defensive shoot out's, one can post huge beasts being killed with what is perceived as inadequate calibers. African poachers successfully taking elephants with the .762x39MM, Inuit Eskimo's harvesting seals and polar bears for generations with the .222 Rem. A .25 ACP in the eye socket will kill ANYTHING. The Mafia's kill ratio is pretty good using a .22. Audie Murphy's WW2 combat weapon of choice was an M1 carbine. A full auto M4 is tough to conceal on a Miami beach in August. a Keltec.32 ACP a little easier.

That's it I will be trading my 1911's and hammerless Smith's in for anything in 22LR and .762x39 as per Tman, "Cause they will kill ANYTHING."

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:07 pm

Hillbilly wrote:The minor calibers do kill a lot of folks.... just not fast enough in many cases to take the fight out of someone quick enough.

Yada yada yada... no one in their right mind is going to stand around to get shot with a .25 or .380. And no doubt that they have "worked" many times over the years. However- you cannot argue with blood loss and central nervous trauma when you really, really need some one to sit down and behave. Now, not after they continue to bite, hit, shoot and stab you some more.

For every body who's been stacked by a minor caliber... I bet we can find ten folks who would have liked to stopped the fight sooner.

Yada yada yada..."shot placement is the key".... sure... and it's easy enough to kill the 10 ring when the cardboard is not shooting back or bobbing and weaving to get a better angle on you. And yea... center mass is the is the place you need to hit. See... "center mass" is the center of what you have left to aim at... and an oblique shot into the thorax is a lot deeper to the goodies than square away. Maybe that's why anybody who needs to shoot somebody is looking for 12 inches of penetration and retained bullet weight?

Carry the largest and most controllable caliber and platform you can manage. People shot with bullets from handguns usually need shooting twice to stop and conform their behavior to societal norms... and 85% of handgun shooting victims will survive long enough to carry on the attack with one bullet in them.

I have a 25 a 22 and a 380... and they are tertiary to a larger pistol or carried as a primary only when I cannot carry a larger platform and that is not often. Times have changed... the people who want to hurt you are better at it than ever before and they run in bunches.

A pistol gripped, Remington 870 12 gauge loaded alternatively with OO buck and slugs will stop a fight faster than a .45 acp. It's about weight, shoot ability , and concealment. I don't have a gun bearer to follow me around all day, that's why the mouse guns exists.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:50 pm

Palmtreee wrote:
tman wrote:And you also have the true stories of brown bear being killed with a .22 LR. For every story that you can come up with mouse caliber pistol that failed in defensive shoot out's, one can post huge beasts being killed with what is perceived as inadequate calibers. African poachers successfully taking elephants with the .762x39MM, Inuit Eskimo's harvesting seals and polar bears for generations with the .222 Rem. A .25 ACP in the eye socket will kill ANYTHING. The Mafia's kill ratio is pretty good using a .22. Audie Murphy's WW2 combat weapon of choice was an M1 carbine. A full auto M4 is tough to conceal on a Miami beach in August. a Keltec.32 ACP a little easier.
That's it I will be trading my 1911's and hammerless Smith's in for anything in 22LR and .762x39 as per Tman, "Cause they will kill ANYTHING."

If you shoot it in the eye socket, YES, It WILL!

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:58 pm

tman wrote:
Hillbilly wrote:The minor calibers do kill a lot of folks.... just not fast enough in many cases to take the fight out of someone quick enough.

Yada yada yada... no one in their right mind is going to stand around to get shot with a .25 or .380. And no doubt that they have "worked" many times over the years. However- you cannot argue with blood loss and central nervous trauma when you really, really need some one to sit down and behave. Now, not after they continue to bite, hit, shoot and stab you some more.

For every body who's been stacked by a minor caliber... I bet we can find ten folks who would have liked to stopped the fight sooner.

Yada yada yada..."shot placement is the key".... sure... and it's easy enough to kill the 10 ring when the cardboard is not shooting back or bobbing and weaving to get a better angle on you. And yea... center mass is the is the place you need to hit. See... "center mass" is the center of what you have left to aim at... and an oblique shot into the thorax is a lot deeper to the goodies than square away. Maybe that's why anybody who needs to shoot somebody is looking for 12 inches of penetration and retained bullet weight?

Carry the largest and most controllable caliber and platform you can manage. People shot with bullets from handguns usually need shooting twice to stop and conform their behavior to societal norms... and 85% of handgun shooting victims will survive long enough to carry on the attack with one bullet in them.

I have a 25 a 22 and a 380... and they are tertiary to a larger pistol or carried as a primary only when I cannot carry a larger platform and that is not often. Times have changed... the people who want to hurt you are better at it than ever before and they run in bunches.
A pistol gripped, Remington 870 12 gauge loaded alternatively with OO buck and slugs will stop a fight faster than a .45 acp. It's about weight, shoot ability , and concealment. I don't have a gun bearer to follow me around all day, that's why the mouse guns exists.

Hyperbole much? Having carried full time paid and unpaid a long time, I can assure you a Glock 19 (or any common compact we can list) won't require a gun bearer. Of course another cliche come to mind -"all ways carry enough gun".... as you probably have heard ...that shot to the "eye socket" is not the percentage shot in a bona fide struggle. We probably have not mentioned empty hand skills around here in a while either. Sometimes a hammer is not the only tool in a tool box.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:30 pm

Bottom line and somewhat in agreement . Each and every individual will have different circumstances concerning CCW. If yours is that you can get away with a double stacked .45 acp, FANTASTIC. Some will only get away with a single stacked Minnie 9, while a .25,.22 mouse gun will be the biggest they can get away with. If you gotta shoot twice, do. If you gotta empty the clip and reload do. Sometimes the 25 will stop the fight, sometimes the 45 won't. for all of the big gun failures to stop, there are small gun successes and visa/ versa. I'd rather have my 32 than nothing at all. If my 45 carried like my 32 , I'd go with the 45. Well I guess I beat this horse to death.

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:51 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
Bill in Oregon wrote:Now here I am with a .380 LCP for myself and a .22 Magnum LCR for my wife. I do not think I would have enjoyed the colonel's approbation.
Not so much the 22 WMR, but the 380 ACP has supposedly improved quite a bit with newer ammunition not available when he issued his condemnation of the cartridge.

1. BG-encounter not likely at all - I'll probably have a 22 LR or whatever I'm target-shooting with or hunting with.
2. BG-encounter possible but unlikely - smallish, convenient handgun like the LCP or SIG-938.
3. BG-encounter not unlikely - if I can't find excuse to stay home, full-size 1911 or something like that.
4. BG-encounter very likely - not going to go wherever that is, but if I had to, I'd have a long-gun.

Having lived every place from the boonies to the LA Metro and worked in all sorts of places in between... the last place I needed a pistol was the last place I expected to need one. You must have one heck of a crystal ball. My buddy shot a guy a block off the Vegas strip...in front of 30 people (all were identified and called to court BTW) a few years ago.... just saying- if I knew when I needed to shoot somebody I'd just stay home that day.

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:40 pm

Hillbilly wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:
Bill in Oregon wrote:Now here I am with a .380 LCP for myself and a .22 Magnum LCR for my wife. I do not think I would have enjoyed the colonel's approbation.
Not so much the 22 WMR, but the 380 ACP has supposedly improved quite a bit with newer ammunition not available when he issued his condemnation of the cartridge.

1. BG-encounter not likely at all - I'll probably have a 22 LR or whatever I'm target-shooting with or hunting with.
2. BG-encounter possible but unlikely - smallish, convenient handgun like the LCP or SIG-938.
3. BG-encounter not unlikely - if I can't find excuse to stay home, full-size 1911 or something like that.
4. BG-encounter very likely - not going to go wherever that is, but if I had to, I'd have a long-gun.

Having lived every place from the boonies to the LA Metro and worked in all sorts of places in between... the last place I needed a pistol was the last place I expected to need one. You must have one heck of a crystal ball. My buddy shot a guy a block off the Vegas strip...in front of 30 people (all were identified and called to court BTW) a few years ago.... just saying- if I knew when I needed to shoot somebody I'd just stay home that day.

yeah, me too!

elmo123 · Post by **elmo123** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:11 pm

I worked a double homicide where the only caliber used were two .25 auto pistols and the shots were fired from 20 - 30 yards away by two 18 year old males. Say what you will but these two guys were were just as dead as if they had been shot by any larger caliber.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:17 am

Many years ago my sister and brother in law were sitting in their living room when someone suddenly began kicking their front door in! He grabbed his .25 auto, and upon opening the door he stuck it in the face of the intruder and pulled the trigger! The bullet struck the intruder just to the right of his chin, and he turned around and quickly ran away! From what he observed, it appeared the intruder was unharmed, as he kept running as my BIL chased him awhile, and watched him run down the street!
Later that evening the intruder was apprehended at a local hospital where he was seeking treatment for his wound. Doctors xrays showed the bullet had entered near his chin, followed his jawbone, and stopped just shy of his ear. They easily removed the slug, and the guy was taken straight to jail.
I was never a .25 fan, but after that even less. I figured I'd rather have a knife, or a big rock to defend myself, than a .25 auto.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:16 pm

m.wun wrote:I love to read his writings and Elmers also. BUT they didn't have the bullets we have today! Some of the bullets we
have now changes the field a bit.

But, there've been attendant changes in the larger calibers also. IMO, still giving the nod to a .45. I'll still make the sacrifices necessary to carry the larger gun.