Aiming a handgun

[Old Time Hunter]

Ok...looking for assistance in trying to help my youngest son hit the side of a barn consistently with a hand gun.

Have tried just about everything, he just can not seem to adjust.

First things first, I am loaning him my Ruger Super Blackhawk 7 1/2" barrel with factory adjustable "marksman" sights chambered in .44 Mag.

Started him at 25 yards using cast RD 265gr w/GC loaded with 9.5 grains of Unique.

Off the bench using a sand bag as a rest...first six shots completely missed a 4 X 8 target. Thought there might be something wrong with the gun...I took two shots, standing...both hit a pie plate in the middle of the target. Son shot twelve more times from rest...hit the target exactly TWICE, once in the far upper right hand side of the 4 X 8 sheet... the other on the bottom edge of the center.
My oldest son (who has never shot a pistol before) took the gun and put five out of six into the 8" plate.

Maybe my youngest, who is 32 and stands 6'4" tall, might have been intimidated by the heavier bullet...so we switched to cast 240 gr SWC's loaded with 8.7 grains of Unique. 18 shots later we could not find a new hole anywhere on the 4 X 8. Tried multiple different stances...48 rounds later...he had six additional holes in the target...none on the plate.

Moved the target to 15 yards...96 rounds ( I just let him fire to his hearts content, but tried to get him to shoot instinctively) and he finally started to at least hit the 4 X 8 sheet...even hit the plate a couple of times. But....44 rounds out of that 96 completely missed. Took a break and pulled out our hunting rifles.

My youngest has a '94 Black Shadow (with a rare 24" barrel) chambered for .44 Mag., he also uses a scope. At a hundred yards, with our hunting loads (240gr JSP w/24 grains of H110), he put 3 within an inch but a couple of inches high. With the RD 265 GC's he clover leafed them just a tad under the bulls eye. The 240's fell into the dirt just in front of the target.

We went to my Trapper...now with a Williams FP on it. I clover leafed the JSP's a tad to the right of center, the 265's two inches lower. My youngest picks up the gun...and we have no idea where any of the rounds he supposedly fired towards the same target went! But I noticed something, and this is where I am asking for opinions and advice. He turns his head towards the gun making his left eye well in front of his dominant right eye. He almost sights across his nose.

Had him try the pistol again...sure enough, he cocks his head almost resting his chin on his right shoulder. Of course he did not hit the target either. Had him shoot his hunting rifle again...the one with the scope. He does not cock his head...the scope will not allow it. He argues that he can not focus on the front sight unless he does that, so how can that affect his aim is his rational.

Just say'n, is it possible that is the reason for his inability with iron/open sights????

[crs]

Start him with a .22 , nothing bigger.

[Old Time Hunter]

Do not have a .22 hand gun.

The kid is 32 years old, 250 lbs...6' 4" tall and has been hunting since he was twelve (always with a rifle...with a scope). In that twenty years he has had his share of success in bagging white tail deer. But this year he is taking my 11 year old grandson...so...by DNR rules (called youth hunt rules) my son can not carry a rifle (my grandson can, of course). He can carry a pistol though. And, per DNR rules...has to be a .357 mag or bigger.

[octagon]

Check to see if he is left eye dominant. Get a .22 pistol.

[Griff]

Draw a picture of a proper sight picture, aligned with a target. Next have him close the left eye... it's not necessary to have the front sight "in focus". Do the eye dominance test: With both eyes open, put his hands together at arm's length, forming a triangle between the thumbs and edge of the hand, pick on object in the distance, and keeping that object in the triangle, pull his hands back to his face. Whichever eye the triangle ends up in front of, is the dominant eye.

[stretch]

Some good advice here. some suggestions:

1. Someone else alluded to it - see which eye is dominant.
2. Have him dry fire and observe.
3. Put a little mark on the front sight with a silver pencil or Sharpie.
Have him focus on that mark on the front sight.
4. Stand off of his right shoulder, get him set up, have him dry fire
a couple of times, and then have him hand you the gun. Ask him
to stay focused downrange. Distract him by having him check his
stance, breathe, etc., while you load the revolver behind him. Hand
him the revolver from the rear. Load the first cylinder or two empty,
and you'll find the flinch/jerk if that's the trouble. Old training trick -
I cannot take credit for it!

If he's THAT inconsistent, I suspect that he's jerking the gun some
way or another when he lets it off. Anticipating recoil, bad grip, flinch,
etc..

Good Luck!

-Stretch

[Blaine]

Some good advice here. some suggestions:

1. Someone else alluded to it - see which eye is dominant.
2. Have him dry fire and observe.
3. Put a little mark on the front sight with a silver pencil or Sharpie.
Have him focus on that mark on the front sight.
4. Stand off of his right shoulder, get him set up, have him dry fire
a couple of times, and then have him hand you the gun. Ask him
to stay focused downrange. Distract him by having him check his
stance, breathe, etc., while you load the revolver behind him. Hand
him the revolver from the rear. Load the first cylinder or two empty,
and you'll find the flinch/jerk if that's the trouble. Old training trick -
I cannot take credit for it!

If he's THAT inconsistent, I suspect that he's jerking the gun some
way or another when he lets it off. Anticipating recoil, bad grip, flinch,
etc..

Good Luck!

-Stretch

This...... I had to work really hard to correct some of my mistakes 20 some years ago when I started with a SBH as my first centerfire handgun.
This chart was valuable for me. YMMV

[Booger Bill]

I don't care if he`s a 400lb buffed weightlifter. All should start with a .22 then a .38 or 9mm then the heavy kickers.

[Blaine]

I don't care if he`s a 400lb buffed weightlifter. All should start with a .22 then a .38 or 9mm then the heavy kickers.

As it turns out, a little flyweight .380 like LCP, or Keltec will bite your hand, too....vicious little buggers...

[tman]

I don't care if he`s a 400lb buffed weightlifter. All should start with a .22 then a .38 or 9mm then the heavy kickers.

+1

[Grizz]

get closer !!!!!

start at 10 FEET

tell him to ignore the back sight
and concentrate on the front sight ONLY
and watch where the bullet goes

try a video in front of the gun looking at the shooter
well, not RIGHT in front
and have your son watch the video with you
my guess is that his eyes are closed
and that he has a death grip on the grip
and that he is clenching his entire hand

borrow a .22 single action or just buy one
it's worth it

[BenT]

It sounds like his focal point of his eye is farther than the front sight of the handgun. That is why he is cocking his head to the side to move his eye farther away from the front sight and put it in focus. I have this issue with my eyes.

I shoot my Blackhawk with both hands. My left hand thumb presses against the back of the revolver to the left of the hammer to keep it from twisting when I shoot.

Practice, practice practice.

[Malamute]

An eye patch over the left, then right eye may help sort out what hes doing. He may be forming a sight picture with both eyes, which wont be anywhere near close.

Diagramming the sight picture may help. He says the front sight isnt in focus when trying to shoot right eyed, but hes sacrificing something else thats much more important to try to make a front sight focus. You need to help him figure out what hes doing.

A scope on the pistol may be the simple answer if he isnt figuring it out. There are worse things in life than a scoped pistol. Nobody will be struck with lightning for doing it.

[Pete44ru]

.

Since he does OK with a scoped rifle, I would suggest installing a red dot sight on the BH, with clamp-on rings - like this Weaver/Ruger mount.





.

[spaceman spiff]

I agree with Grizz, start closer. Accuracy can improve confidence. then practice, practice, practice.




spaceman

[Nath]

Is he long sighted?

[rossim92]

my buddy had trouble hitting the baseball when he was younger. He found he had astigmatism. Have his eyes checked for that.

[Old Savage]

Get a .22 or k ad forh e thing so light there is no recoil.

[AJMD429]

Do not have a .22 hand gun.

Have him cover one eye (his choice which but if you can determine dominance keep the dominant one uncovered).

Get a Ruger Mark-1/2/3 in 22 LR. Worth the money. They always hit consistently and are easy to aim.

If you can get a suppressed one that's even better, but they are more ungainly.

Another option would be a 22 LR barrel for a Contender or Encore pistol.

[bmtshooter]

Double hearing protection ........... and oh by the way ............ start with a 22.

A flinch is a hard thing to overcome.

Big guy = big flinch.

[Old Time Hunter]

Get a .22 or k ad forh e thing so light there is no recoil.

My neighbor let us use his Ruger .22...started at 15 feet, still could not keep it on the 8" plate. Out of 100 hundred rounds...twenty on the plate. Most scattered way left and down.

He found he had astigmatism

Yes he does...wears glasses. Has struggled with depth perception his entire life too.

[Old Ironsights]

An eye patch over the left, then right eye may help sort out what hes doing. He may be forming a sight picture with both eyes, which wont be anywhere near close.

Diagramming the sight picture may help. He says the front sight isnt in focus when trying to shoot right eyed, but hes sacrificing something else thats much more important to try to make a front sight focus. You need to help him figure out what hes doing.

A scope on the pistol may be the simple answer if he isnt figuring it out. There are worse things in life than a scoped pistol. Nobody will be struck with lightning for doing it.

This. It sounds like he can't figure which eye to use. Scopes pretty much force the issue, so if he'sbok with a scope, then block off eyes unrill he can hit blindfolded...

[44shooter]

I don't think he is seeing what you or most of the rest of us would see. Maybe it's just an eye dominance thing or Maybe a vision problem. He shot a lot so I don't think it's the recoil. I don't think a 22 or anything else will help except for cheaper misses. I think an eye exam is due. He should be able to throw dirt clods better than that.

[mikld]

Don't have a .22? Load up some light .44 Specials...

[TedH]

It sure sounds like an eye dominance issue. My wife had the same sort of thing going on till I figured out what was going on. Put a piece of masking tape over the left side of his safety glasses, and force him to aim with just the right eye, assuming he's right handed. Once I got my wife "trained" to keep that dang left eye closed and ignore it, she shoots very well with a handgun.

[Blaine]

What's wrong with keeping both eyes open? If you're holding the weapon straight out in front of you, I find it easy to know which one is the proper sight pic.....Learning to shoot with open eyes is a good thing for situational awareness.

[soon 2 retire]

I also agree that he should try shooting with one eye shut; but to check for a flinch just leave one chamber empty in #3 or #4 position and see if he flinches on the empty chamber. I remember seeing one person whose flinch looked just like recoil when he pulled the trigger on the empty chamber.


Bob in Friday Harbor, WA

[JohndeFresno]

OTH,

Since you don't have a .22 handgun available...

I would start with a lighter load to avoid flinching and hindering confidence in a new or first time handgun shooter. Why not start over with a sub-1000 fps 255 gr lead load?

Unique, for one, provides many great loadings of reasonable accuracy in a 44 Mag cartridge at 800-900 fps. You don't HAVE to use a .44 Special casing to load up some light, .44Special speed loads. In fact, my favorite target load is with a 255 grainer and Unique for right at 1,000 fps from a six inch barrel - in a .44 Mag case.

Secondly, that handhold position chart (posted by BlaineG) is what I would have suggested, as well. I have used it myself and in helping others to improve their skills.

[Old Time Hunter]

OTH,

Since you don't have a .22 handgun available...

I would start with a lighter load to avoid flinching and hindering confidence in a new or first time handgun shooter. Why not start over with a sub-1000 fps 255 gr lead load?

Unique, for one, provides many great loadings of reasonable accuracy in a 44 Mag cartridge at 800-900 fps. You don't HAVE to use a .44 Special casing to load up some light, .44Special speed loads. In fact, my favorite target load is with a 255 grainer and Unique for right at 1,000 fps from a six inch barrel - in a .44 Mag case.

Secondly, that handhold position chart (posted by BlaineG) is what I would have suggested, as well. I have used it myself and in helping others to improve their skills.

I do have a .22 available, also he has used plinking loads in the .44 (240gr SWC w/8.5 gr of Unique...sub 1000 fps)...never had a flinching problem. He has shot my .308 Contender (w/scope) in the past with some degree of accuracy...unfortunately I no longer possess this pistol.

The issue is, even if he could shoot the .22 or any other weak kneed round, they are not legal for the hunting conditions put down by the DNR. He has to use a "legal" pistol if he is to do the "youth hunt" with his son. By the way, my 11 year old Grandson knocks the snot out of the target with the .44 at 25 yards...no problem. But, DNR does not allow him to use a pistol.

[Pisgah]

Assuming his eyes are healthy -- and if he has not seen an opthamologist in a few years, he should -- and that he wants to get proficient, then you need to start him as close to the target as he needs to be to hit it. Yep, if that's 5', so be it. Get him consistent at that range, then move the target out further -- slightly. Small steps, and if at any point he seems to be losing the ability to hit, drop back a step for some remedial training. For some folks, it's a long process.

[Old Time Hunter]

Assuming his eyes are healthy --

He has acute astigmatism, corrected as best they can with eye glasses. Has another prescription in for contacts as the ophthalmologist says contacts are better for "helping" with astigmatism. Apparently nothing can really correct it.

Then we can start over...just loaded a thousand rounds.

Might have to find out if Granddads' are allowed to substitute for Dads'

[7.62 Precision]

1. Dry fire.
2. Dry fire.
3. Dry fire.
4. Dry fire.
5. Dry fire when he thinks it's loaded.
6 Dry fire.

Maybe it is his eyes. Sometimes it is. Usually it is not. Also, if he can't hit with his dominant eye, he can try his weak eye. I shoot most rifles with my week eye.

Left and low can be pushing the trigger sideways instead of straight back. Or it can be jerking the trigger, command detonating, forcing the weapon to fire. Usually a combination of the two.

Most common way I see even experienced shooters miss with a pistol is low and left. Some lower, some lefter, but that is most common.

I have a pistol target diagnostic card that I made and send out with every order. PM your email address and I will dig up a PDF and email it to you.

[Rusty]

I was thinking last night, What if you were to get a small cheap lazer and tape it to the barrel so you could watch the lazer as he dry fires?

[66GTO]

My two cents. As a former firearms instructor for a Federal law enforcement agency my experience with new shooters is that they have trouble with sight alignment, trigger control or grip. If your son is an experienced hunter with iron sights I doubt it is a sight alignment problem. And if he is missing by as much as you say, that is not his problem.

He could be "milking" the grip if he is shooting double action, especially since he is a big strong guy. Watch how much finger he puts inside the trigger guard and watch for the barrel moving left (if he is a righty) when he dry fires. If it is he is squeezing too much with his right hand (like milking a cow). Equal pressure with both hands and not too much finger inside the trigger guard. Change his grip if necessary. Try having him shoot single action and see if that helps. If it does work on the grip and trigger finger.

The other thing is anticipating the shot and flinching. Load what we called "ball and dummy" and index the cylinder so the first two rounds are live, then an empty brass or dummy round (not an empty cylinder, he can see the empty chamber. Since you reload I would prime some empty brass for this excercise), another live round and then another empty. Watch for the muzzle dip on an empty round. The way to unlearn that is to try for a surprise shot by slowly squeezing the trigger while maintaining sight alignment. Practice this by dry firing then with live rounds.

The chart posted by someone earlier will help you analyze his target and show what his problem is. We used it as a training tool at the academy.

[PriseDeFer]

Shoot 10 with one eye closed then new target and 10 with the other eye closed. Forget all else 'till you do that.