Need some Electrical Advice--Help Please.

Batman1939 · Post by **Batman1939** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:52 am

Hey Guys--I've got a problem. Here's the scenario: 1) clothes dryer, which had been working beautifully, suddenly stopped--would work only unloaded and then not so well, 2) bought a new dryer--won't run or barely "tries" to start up and then shuts off--electrician checks my power supply--I've got 256 V, seemingly high for 220 (or 240) circuit--he says, "that's probably not the problem", 3) retailer sends out appliance repairman to work on dryer--has no luck after exhaustive checking-orders a new motor, 4) a week later another repairman installs new motor--still dryer won't work; 5) we return dryer and exchange it for another new one of the same make and model---still it won't work-just makes a short "groan" when starter button pushed and shuts off--after a second or so.

I've talked on phone with my electrician and he seems stumped. He's a contractor, but maybe not very experienced. Anyone on the forum have any ideas?? We're getting tired of going into town to a laundromat to get clothes washed; any help greatly appreciated!

Could the excessive voltage, 256V, be the problem??

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:00 am

I would like to know where the 256V comes from, since 240v is actually 2 x 120v. There is not a 240v wire to measure voltage at. I would measure voltage on each 120v leg. If you are getting 256v on one leg of the outlet, that is the problem right there.

However, whats probably happening is a loss of current, not voltage. This is probably due to a bad breaker switch or receptacle. I would replace the breaker to start with, they do go out and it's the most likely culprit. Then you have a known quantity to work from. If your electrician hasn't figured this out yet, get a new one.

Also, be aware, meters can vary in tolerance, especially digital meters and definitely cheap digital meters.

Batman1939 · Post by **Batman1939** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:39 am

Sore Shoulder--Thanks for the ideas. When I checked the receptacle with my $10 ancient volt meter--I got "something like" 120 V on each leg. The Electrician, who had a fancy new digital gizmo, is the one who reported 256V. I asked him about the circuit breakers and receptacle and he indicated that they "shouldn't be bad." BUT--maybe one (or both) is. I think I'll follow up on your recommendations. Like you, I've thought I might be experiencing a current drop. Won't put a smiley face here just yet, but I like your suggestions.

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:50 am

Having voltage, especially with a digital meter, doesn't mean there is current available to spin the motor. You can put the meter on the input, turn on the dryer and see if the voltage disappears. Check all the connections starting at the main breaker in the panel and ending at the connections inside the dryer. Somewhere there may be a wire half burnt off or a loose connection.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:52 am

.

I would also inspect the line to the dryer for something amiss, like a loose connection and/or a nail through the line (which can sometimes happen when nailing something in the area the line runs through).

.

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:05 pm

I know that in my area here in NY, the power is actually 117v per leg. But yours may be a little higher, that is not any bid problem.

As long as you are getting the full 240-260v then its good, it would be nice like Sore Shoulder said to know the amps that you are getting. That is what is used to measure current.

I would look at your grounding, first, you need a tight and reliable ground for the heavy amp/240v type appliances to work.

Then check to see if there are fuses inside before the the motor and between the power outlet. It could be a circuit card that uses varistor's as a fuse also. You will see them burnt up on the printed circuit card.

Good luck, if you find out what is wrong please post, it might help someone else in the future.

Thanks,
Steve

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:15 pm

Wouldn't that big motor need a three phase start up? Perhaps there is a capacitor that has died that supplied that startup?

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:20 pm

Check the voltage under load. Turn the dryer on and measure voltage. Faulty wiring somewhere up the line from the dryer could allow your meter to read full voltage "no load", but break down when the motor kicks in, under load, your voltage drops...

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:23 pm

williamranks wrote:Having voltage, especially with a digital meter, doesn't mean there is current available to spin the motor. You can put the meter on the input, turn on the dryer and see if the voltage disappears. Check all the connections starting at the main breaker in the panel and ending at the connections inside the dryer. Somewhere there may be a wire half burnt off or a loose connection.

Good point. I assumed an "electrician" would check the connections at the outlet and the breaker, but, based on the fact he had an electrician look at it who is "stumped", that's good advice.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:25 pm

Voltage can be 110-130 per leg, so 220-260 is within range like someone already said.

Turn off breakers. Tighten all lugs on outlet and at breakers (don't forget the neutral).
If that doesn't work, you can try new breakers.
If any of that is beyond your capability, call an electrician. A different electrician.
If all your other 220 stuff is running okay (water heater, HVAC....) then the problem is not likely to be in the transformer or tranmission lines, but in that circuit.

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:40 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
williamranks wrote:Having voltage, especially with a digital meter, doesn't mean there is current available to spin the motor. You can put the meter on the input, turn on the dryer and see if the voltage disappears. Check all the connections starting at the main breaker in the panel and ending at the connections inside the dryer. Somewhere there may be a wire half burnt off or a loose connection.

Good point. I assumed an "electrician" would check the connections at the outlet and the breaker, but, based on the fact he had an electrician look at it who is "stumped", that's good advice.

Most electricians don't get the opportunity to do much troubleshooting. I saw this once where the existing dryer cord had been bent near the outlet for years and finally failed, when the new dryer was installed they reused the same cord.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:50 pm

vancelw wrote:Voltage can be 110-130 per leg, so 220-260 is within range like someone already said.

Turn off breakers. Tighten all lugs on outlet and at breakers (don't forget the neutral).
If that doesn't work, you can try new breakers.
If any of that is beyond your capability, call an electrician. A different electrician.
If all your other 220 stuff is running okay (water heater, HVAC....) then the problem is not likely to be in the transformer or tranmission lines, but in that circuit.

This

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:01 pm

I just reread your op, it is not anything to do with the appliance, but rather the circuit that powers it. The best advise has been posted; new breakers, new power cord, check all of the connections to be sure they are not loose.
Unless someone has been in the breakerbox lately before the problem started, then I would concentrate on, new breakers and new power cord.
Or it is very possible squirrels or other varmints, have gotten inside the wall and chewed the insulation off, and once a load is put on the wires, they short and send everything to ground. If that is the case then, fire is a big concern.

Steve

mark08 · Post by **mark08** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:14 pm

The old one ran OK then quit? OK! A thought, did you re-use the pig tail from the old dryer? Short lesson Phase "A" 120volts Phase "B" 120 volts No Phase "C" on this,, but there is a Neutral (Ground ) (+) for safety is not in circuit. Put meter on "A" and "+" should read 120v . put meter on "B" and (+) should read 120v. Put meter on "A" and "B" should read 240v. As others said turn on dryer and if Voltage goes to "O" look for loose connection or cut wire or maybe damaged wire that burnt into. With out seeing it I suspect it is a bad PIG TAIL (cord & plug from outlet to appliance). If you replaced the pig tail with a new one then check form breaker box to out for ????..
GOOD LUCK

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:20 pm

Having BTDT, I honestly believe you are overlooking a potential problem. It nothing else works, give this a look.
http://www.how-to-repair.com/help/tumbl ... capacitor/

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:26 pm

I'm no electrician, but I do know a breaker that looked fine....no burn marks.....flipped on and off fine...........cost me a dryer a few years ago. The dryer ran but would not get hot.......so....after replacing the heating element, and 3 thermostats, it still would not get hot........so............

I bought a new dryer and took the motor and other parts out of the old one and took the rest of it outside and shot it to pieces. I hooked the new one up and it did the same thing.....so.......before shooting that one up, I replaced the breaker and low and behold.....that was it.---------------6

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:48 pm

BlaineG wrote:Having BTDT, I honestly believe you are overlooking a potential problem. It nothing else works, give this a look.
http://www.how-to-repair.com/help/tumbl ... capacitor/

I think he has replaced the entire appliance and had multiple motors replaced on the new one. That should have solved the problem with the capacitor problem. Not trying to be a smart butt.

They remind me of the warnings about messing with the old cathode ray tube tv's, that big cap will get your attention when you touch it, sort of a shocking surprise!!

Steve

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:01 pm

Probably the breaker +10. The motor should be a 120v motor and the heating elements are what require the 220/240 v to operate. Good luck!!!

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:06 pm

Theres plenty of good info here. I'll just add that I've seen more breakers fail than any other particular problem, and they arent always obvious. Breakers are cheap. Keep spares around also. Its a drag when they die on fri nite or otherwise over the weekend and nobody's around to check them or buy one. For me, it costs more in gas money to go to town than a breaker costs.

ETA: If theres a poor connection anywhere on that circuit, it can cause all sorts of consternation. Its been mentioned before but I'll say it again. POSITIVELY check and double check ALL connections on that circuit. By feel, not looking. Its a fire hazzard if they arent tight. I've seen wires and an outlet melted from a poor connection. It was only noticed when the microwave wasnt acting right. I'm amazed it didnt start a fire.

FatJackDurham · Post by **FatJackDurham** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:22 pm

I had a similar problem that kept popping my computer monitors. Th voltage on one phase was 135. I had to get an engineer from the power company to come check it to believe me. He did, harrumphed and ordered a service on that phase from the pole to fix a resistor or capacitor, which fixed the problem. Hve the power company check the power from the pole.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:33 pm

SteveR wrote:
BlaineG wrote:Having BTDT, I honestly believe you are overlooking a potential problem. It nothing else works, give this a look.
http://www.how-to-repair.com/help/tumbl ... capacitor/
I think he has replaced the entire appliance and had multiple motors replaced on the new one. That should have solved the problem with the capacitor problem. Not trying to be a smart butt.

They remind me of the warnings about messing with the old cathode ray tube tv's, that big cap will get your attention when you touch it, sort of a shocking surprise!!

Steve

Understood...

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:38 pm

Use a tong amp probe on the motor lead. see what it is at startup, usually 6 times motor rating amps. Check the AMP rating on the motor nameplate. In other words, if the motor is rated at full load amps of 5 amp, it might draw up to 6 times on initial start up and drop down to rated current once it starts. This is a good starting point. Good luck. keep us posted.

Batman1939 · Post by **Batman1939** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:30 pm

WOW! Lots of good suggestions here. I have already replaced the appliance cord--thinking that might have been the culprit. No change in dryer. I do have some new breakers and plan to install them tomorrow (or whenever it quits snowing here) We are appreciative of the ideas given so far. I'm beginning to think circuit breakers are involved.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:34 pm

A new Breaker is needed.

I had a similar problem with my AC unit last year. The Compressor tried to start. I used my Digital VOM and got the proper voltage.
Replaced the Breaker and problem solved.
A loose connection will also cause the same symptom.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:47 pm

Breaker. If you don't know much about electricity and breaker panels, hire someone to do it. Make sure he is both licensed and INSURED.

plowboy 45 · Post by **plowboy 45** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:03 pm

Best I don't give no advice

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:32 pm

plowboy 45 wrote: Electricity travels right backwards than what most folks think

Well...ahem...that depends. Are you talking about electron flow, or current flow? Electric current flows from positive to negative in a circuit.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:59 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
plowboy 45 wrote: Electricity travels right backwards than what most folks think
Well...ahem...that depends. Are you talking about electron flow, or current flow? Electric current flows from positive to negative in a circuit.

Yea, but it sucks if you are between it and a ground.

cas · Post by **cas** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:21 pm

Just because you're getting power to the plug/unit, that doesn't mean it's getting back to the panel. Generally if you're getting the right voltage at the plug, but whatever still isn't working, it's a neutral problem. (in this case neutral/ground problem, what you have depends on how it's wired, which depends on it's age)

The electrician should have checked that as well but it doesn't mean he did.

I say "generally" because you can't trust electricity to do what it's supposed to.

(I am an "unlicensed electrician".

I work for the state, so I don't need a license, which is good because they could never keep a licensed one for what they pay.

)

Lassiter · Post by **Lassiter** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:55 pm

I'm with Six on this...........replace the breaker. Always start with the cheapest fix first when you're guessing. jes sayin'

moodyholler · Post by **moodyholler** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:39 am

One other potential problem. Newer dryers need a seperate neutral. I know in panel box both are under same lugs, but here in Va branch circuits are required to be 4 wire on 220 volt circuits. If dryer has electronics, use of older 3 wire circuits will cause dryers to eat boards. Bring circuit up to current NEC code specs. Second, because issue remains after multiple attempts, a current check will be needed to see if potential (voltage) only exists. Also verify breaker (2 pole tied together) are on seperate buses in the panel. Ran into situation where homeowner used two single pole breakers for 220 circuit and put both on same phase. Since both were in phase, no current could flow. Licensed electrician should be up to date on current code changes. moodyholler

Batman1939 · Post by **Batman1939** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:58 pm

PROBLEM SEEMS TO BE SOLVED---- Guys, this almost pains me to write this, but I don't feel that it's solely MY ignorance in this case. Neither the licensed electrical contractor I originally called or the two professional major appliance repairmen sent to my home by the retailer were able to get the machine running. Called another electrical contractor who said he would send his son out to trouble-shoot the problem. When the nice young (appeared about 16 years old--but that's 60 yrs my junior) feller showed up he had his "associate" (a cute young gal) with him. I briefly explained the problem and the repairman followed me into the laundry room to check things out. He immediately tore into the back of the dryer and took the wall receptacle out to check connections. I said, "maybe I should try to start this thing so you can heard what it sounds like." I pushed the starter button and it gave a brief groan and stopped. Well, fortunately that clever little gal saw what I had done and said, "here, just touch the starter till it "dings" and then take your finger off it. If you hold it down, it will stop the machine." She immediately started the mating-----and it ran!!! Well, I went to the house and told my wife to get on over to the cabin where our washer/dryer are located. Since we didn't have a real load of wash to use to test the dryer under load, I wetted a few bath towels and tossed them in. After running for quite a while they were thoroughly dried. I think the dryer "problem" may be solved. My wife, usually extremely optimistic, says she'll defer final judgement until we have run an actual load of laundry through it.

When I re-read the appliance manual regarding how to start the machine-it merely said to hold down the start button for 2-5 seconds. It said nothing about a "beep" and that if you held it too long (seems like 2-3 seconds is already too long) it would stop the start action. Maybe someone who actually knows the machines should be involved in writing or proofreading the manuals.

I want to thank everyone who offered suggestions here. This appliance is on the "old-type" 3 wire receptacle and I realize that I should convert to the 4 wire style--as advocated by Moody Holler (and perhaps others). Right now it's too cold and I'm too old to crawl under the house to replace the wiring.

As a final note, when I asked the repairman what I owed him--he replied, "we didn't do anything". Finally, he agreed to accept $35 for his trouble. Even though I live about 20 miles outside of town. While there he also hooked up the vent duct and put the new appliance cord clamp on the wire feeding the dryer. For me to do the vent would have required moving the washer out and going thru all sorts of hassles. Because he was a slightly built, agile young guy he was able to reinstall the vent hookup with only about 9" between the dryer and the wall. I will definitely consider hiring this guy if I have electrical work that I can't do myself in the future.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:19 pm

Batman1939 · Post by **Batman1939** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:36 pm

Go ahead and laugh Blaine. I'm wondering now why some of the forum members didn't tell me how long I needed to push on the start button.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:42 pm

Batman1939 wrote:Go ahead and laugh Blaine. I'm wondering now why some of the forum members didn't tell me how long I needed to push on the start button.

Ok...true confession time....I was on a road trip, at my buddy's house, washing clothes, and the dryer wouldn't work.....He showed me how to shut the dryer door properly....

Every so often, I'll go to the Verizon Store to complain that something on my Smart Phone doesn't work, and one of the 8 year olds they have working there will show me how stupid I am.....

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:57 pm

It happens to all of us. I was talking to my sister the other day and noticed the charger for the cordless phone was empty. Searched for five or six minutes before I found it in my hand and against my ear.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:13 pm

.

JMO, but I would think there's a paucity of folks here, who haven't experienced pilot error.

I hope you bought that gal a gift certificate for a steak dinner somewhere.................

.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:22 pm

Batman1939 wrote:Go ahead and laugh Blaine. I'm wondering now why some of the forum members didn't tell me how long I needed to push on the start button.

I still miss my 29 year-old Maytag top load washer and dryer set

This new fangled one has to be set on extra dirty, extra water, extra rinse to get anywhere near the performance the old top load did. So much for improvement

The washer was in "spin" cycle once when we had an electrical brown out. Didn't think anything of it until, much later, I realized the washer was still spinning at 1200 rpm. Long story short, the low voltage had confused the circuitry and it had spun so long with no water to cool it that it melted the pump drain motor. Also, the vibration compacted sand in the drain trap so the washer could not drain anymore. Took two soggy loads to diagnose that there were two problems going on.

williamranks wrote:It happens to all of us. I was talking to my sister the other day and noticed the charger for the cordless phone was empty. Searched for five or six minutes before I found it in my hand and against my ear.

Ugh. Happened just the other day with the phone. I also looked all over the house for my reading glasses and finally gave up and got a new pair out of the package. After reading, went to push them up on top of my head!!! Crapola!! Found my glasses

cas · Post by **cas** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:30 pm

We go on a lot of calls at work where whatever isn't working just isn't plugged in.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:45 pm

I've heard of people that cant figure out why their computer isnt working. They plugged it all in to the power strip,...including the cord to the power strip.

Bob Hatfield · Post by **Bob Hatfield** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:18 pm

You have an open neutral. As previously stated the motors are 120 volt single phase and the element is the only device onboard that is 240 volt. Check the neutral connection back to the main service panel. Did the electrician measure from phase to neutral at the dryer?

Single phase power problems result from two things. Open neutrals or open phase.

Bob

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:54 pm

vancelw wrote:
Batman1939 wrote:Go ahead and laugh Blaine. I'm wondering now why some of the forum members didn't tell me how long I needed to push on the start button.
I still miss my 29 year-old Maytag top load washer and dryer set This new fangled one has to be set on extra dirty, extra water, extra rinse to get anywhere near the performance the old top load did. So much for improvement

The washer was in "spin" cycle once when we had an electrical brown out. Didn't think anything of it until, much later, I realized the washer was still spinning at 1200 rpm. Long story short, the low voltage had confused the circuitry and it had spun so long with no water to cool it that it melted the pump drain motor. Also, the vibration compacted sand in the drain trap so the washer could not drain anymore. Took two soggy loads to diagnose that there were two problems going on.

williamranks wrote:It happens to all of us. I was talking to my sister the other day and noticed the charger for the cordless phone was empty. Searched for five or six minutes before I found it in my hand and against my ear.
Ugh. Happened just the other day with the phone. I also looked all over the house for my reading glasses and finally gave up and got a new pair out of the package. After reading, went to push them up on top of my head!!! Crapola!! Found my glasses

You have logical excuses for being brain dead, though.....

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:08 pm

BlaineG wrote:
vancelw wrote:
Batman1939 wrote:Go ahead and laugh Blaine. I'm wondering now why some of the forum members didn't tell me how long I needed to push on the start button.
I still miss my 29 year-old Maytag top load washer and dryer set This new fangled one has to be set on extra dirty, extra water, extra rinse to get anywhere near the performance the old top load did. So much for improvement

The washer was in "spin" cycle once when we had an electrical brown out. Didn't think anything of it until, much later, I realized the washer was still spinning at 1200 rpm. Long story short, the low voltage had confused the circuitry and it had spun so long with no water to cool it that it melted the pump drain motor. Also, the vibration compacted sand in the drain trap so the washer could not drain anymore. Took two soggy loads to diagnose that there were two problems going on.

williamranks wrote:It happens to all of us. I was talking to my sister the other day and noticed the charger for the cordless phone was empty. Searched for five or six minutes before I found it in my hand and against my ear.
Ugh. Happened just the other day with the phone. I also looked all over the house for my reading glasses and finally gave up and got a new pair out of the package. After reading, went to push them up on top of my head!!! Crapola!! Found my glasses
You have logical excuses for being brain dead, though.....

Too many Californian jokes?

I will say...my years in California were stressful....