On Glocks

[sore shoulder]

Glock will be coming out with, or has already, a single stack 9mm in the same frame as the .380.

I never saw the attraction of the 21 when I could have a 10mm that would handle real 10mm loads and not self destruct in the same frame and more rounds. 750fpe x 15+1 vs 500+\-fpe x 13+1 seems like easy math. Adding sectional density just puts the lid on it. Col Cooper basically made the .45 acp obsolete with that round.

[vancelw]

A M21 .45 ACP was the first Glock I ever shot and I didn't care for the grip. It was too big for me. Even the 21SF seems to big for me. If Glock wants to sell me a .45 it would have to be a single stack. If they would come out with a single stack 9mm along the lines of the M42 and a full sized single stack in .45 I think they would both sell. I'm not at all interested in the .45 GAP.

Glock 36

I almost bought a 30s the other day (double stack with a 36 slide on it) but they were out. Whew.\
My first 21 was on the verge of being too large for my hand. A hogue sleeve helped a lot. My current 21 is a Gen 4 so it's better. I held the double stack 30s and the single stack 36 quite a bit, but the 36 was just too narrow for me.

[Poohgyrr]

The original 21 & 30 frame is just bigger enough that I stayed with the smaller standard frame. When the short frame came out, my equipment was already set up.

Then I discovered Glock's 357Sig with better accuracy, less muzzle flip, easier overall recoil, and street results mimicking the old 357Magnum 125 gr JHP. (125 gr 357Sig vs 180gr 40S&W; using the same pistols with just a barrel swap)

The G30 shoots well for me, and it is built for the ten round mags still mandated in some places. But for now, my old 40S&W G22 mags are still legal and work fine loaded with 357Sig. Glock makes a pretty good 357Si and the ammo is availae for the same price as other rounds (careful shopping).

[horsesoldier03]

One of the things my Dad taught me at a fairly young age, and it's been borne out thru my experience, is that when someone is trying to convince someone else of, it falls into one of two categories; either they've found themselves knee-deep in cow patties and want company or, they're trying to convince themselves they're right!

Sounds like our dad's might have been neighbors. I learned the same thing.

I have thought about buying a GLOCK, but they haven't made a Model 1911 yet!

[tman]

I'll get the single stack 9MM when they finally put it out. I hope they have extended mags, along with flush fit.

[vancelw]

Hope so, but right now for the 380 model 42 all you can get are flush mags and flush mags with a Pearce extender (grip only, no extra capacity)

[Rusty]

And the money just keeps rolling in for Glock.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/m ... /23548847/

[firefuzz]

I just found found out yesterday our local S.O. will be switching from their G22's in .40 S&W and they'll be returning to 9mms. I wonder what's up with that?

Two possible reasons. First some of the officers (I won't make this observation gender based) may not be comfortable with the 40 S&W. It's louder and has a sharper recoil than the 9mm. Or it could be the cost of ammo.

It's likely both of those things, and it isnt necessarily just weak females or rookies that dont shoot as well with the 40's, many very experienced shooters find they shoot the 9's better and faster than 40's. The constant improvement in ammo has steadily made the 9's into more reliable performers also. I've seen a number of guys mention "the juice just isnt worth the squeeze" when comparing 40's to 9's.

Another aspect that comes up in discussions, the 40 round wears guns faster. Some departments have had to up their PM schedules and replaced more parts in 40's.

The ammo cost is another issue, with departments and individuals.

Funny, all of these problems could have been solved way back when if they had just gone to the .45 acp instead of the .40 S&W. Most folks I've spoken with, regardless of sex, think the .45 acp is easier to handle in recoil than the .40 S&W. And obviously, being a slower and lower pressure round it's easier on guns.

The problem with this is the original model 21 frame is too large for average/small handed shooter, of which I'm one. The gen 3 SF frames are a different story.

For some reason the Gen 3 and 4 models 22 and 23 in 40. S&W have been plagued with problems none of the others seem to have, even the .357 Sig, other than the early model 20 in 10mm. For you guys that shoot 10mm, the ammo on the market now is considerably watered down from the original Norma 180 the Col. Cooper was so crazy about. That load tears up Glocks just like it does Colt 1911's, just not as fast.

Rob

[sore shoulder]

I'm sorry fuzz but you are misinformed. Glocks are well known to be the only 10mm to handle the original real 10mm loads. It was the Colt Delta Elite that was torn apart by those original 10mm loads. I owned a gen 1 and now own a gen 3 or 4 SF. The Gen 1 never fired a round of factory loads, from day 1 it was shooting 180gr hydra shocks loaded to 1300fps. My friend ended up sending his Colt back after 100 rounds of that ammo and later sold it. I now shoot only Double tap and Buffalo Bore, both are loaded to 750 fpe.

The .40 wears out guns because it is basically an over pressure round trying to get in the 10mm territory, which it can't and wont do. That pressure is what causes the snappy recoil and wears out guns.

[sore shoulder]

For you guys that shoot 10mm, the ammo on the market now is considerably watered down from the original Norma 180 the Col. Cooper was so crazy about. That load tears up Glocks just like it does Colt 1911's, just not as fast.

Rob

This comment stuck in my head this morning because it is completely historically backwards and just plain wrong, so after chores I've decided to address it again.

The watered down loads are nothing new, in fact, the "watered down" loads are actually the load the FBI specced out in 1988 after it became apparent the 10mm was too much gun for most FBI agents. At that time pretty much all that was on the market was the "watered down" FBI loads, and hand loading was the only way to get real 10mm rounds. In fact, it's how I got in to reloading.

Then it was realized that the "10mm lite" load didn't really require as big of a cartridge as 10mm so a new design was submitted. This load then gave birth to the .40 S&W. The "watered down" 10mm is THE ONLY reason we have the .40 S&W.

All this information can be found here, and is accurate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

Today there are about 4x as many real 10mm loads available than there was in the early 90's. An original Gen 1 Glock 20 digested them just as well as it does today. I've never seen nor heard of a Glock 20 of any generation being "torn up", and in fact it's been common knowledge for years that if you wanted to shoot real 10mm loads the Glock is the only pistol that will do it consistently.

In fact, the ONLY problem I have ever had with a G20, and ever heard of, is the Gen 1 not cycling the "watered down" loads properly because it was in fact designed from day one from the ground up to shoot the original 10mm loads. The Glock 20 frame was specifically engineered to handle the original Norma load specced by Col Cooper, and the 21 was built on the 20 frame afterwards.

[tman]

The 40" short and weak" pushes a 180 grn. bullet at about the same and sometimes higher than the 45acp does with 185grn. It's more than a 9mm and close to a 45 until you get over 200 grains. Glock builds a Cadillac product and sells it at a Chevy Corsica price. Perhaps they deserve the success they're earn.

[vancelw]

I owned a gen 1 and now own a gen 3 or 4 SF.

? They don't make a Gen 4 SF G20. Gen 3 came in regular frame and short frame. All the Gen 4s are the same as a short frame, until you add a backstrap filler.

[sore shoulder]

I owned a gen 1 and now own a gen 3 or 4 SF.

? They don't make a Gen 4 SF G20. Gen 3 came in regular frame and short frame. All the Gen 4s are the same as a short frame, until you add a backstrap filler.

Yea, I don't keep track of the gens anymore, I've mentioned this before, I think in this thread, which is why I said "or". Thanks for the clarification. I prob wouldn't buy a gen "4" in that case because I think Gaston made his guns for my hand.

[vancelw]

The slide will be marked 20 with an SF on the frame for a Gen 3, or the Slide will be marked 20 Gen 4. I just thought it odd that you didn't know which one you own.

[sore shoulder]

The slide will be marked 20 with an SF on the frame for a Gen 3, or the Slide will be marked 20 Gen 4. I just thought it odd that you didn't know which one you own.

Yea? I find it odd you choosing that to keep running on about. If you've got something to say, say it.

[sore shoulder]

Oh, and there may be one or two people here who have actually seen me with it. But we'll wait to see how far this goes.

[vancelw]

Are you SURE it's not a Gen 4?

Calm down. Take a deep breath. It'll be okay.
I just thought it was quite funny that you were lambasting firefuzz about his lack of knowledge on the 10mm, and you didn't know what 10mm Glock you had.
You gotta admit, it sounds a lot like a basement wonder, right?
I believe you now.

Lunch is on me when you're in town

[sore shoulder]

I currently have 4 Glocks, and I couldn't tell you which gen any of them are, mostly because I don't care and they all work perfectly. Except I can now tell you which gen my current 10mm is , and that none of them are gen 4 since they don't have the removable straps, and I'll prob never buy a gen 4 unless it's all they have when I go buy the next one. That being said, I know Glock 20 doesn't get "torn up" because I spend more time shooting it, and the others, than trying to remember which gen they are. The only gen I could be sure of was my first G20 because it was when they first came out, and it definitely didn't get "torn up". I traded in a Smith&Wesson 10mm for it, at a fairly big loss. I've been shooting 10mm off and on for 25 years. I can tell you that Ted Nugent, a big proponent of Glock 20's in 10mm, played a drug dealer in an episode of Miami Vice and ironically was shot by Don Johnson with a Bren Ten. I can and did recall all the information I posted earlier without googling it because I knew about it before Al Gore invented the internet. I wouldn't have corrected firefuzz as emphatically if he hadn't been so emphatic himself, while being completely wrong.

I don't make it to NE TX, but I pass through Amarillo on my way to Austin and Houston during the holidays if you wanna drive over and buy me and the wife lunch.

[Malamute]

...

Howaglockworks.gif

[sore shoulder]

[Malamute]

^^^ I was going to post that one next.

[firefuzz]

For you guys that shoot 10mm, the ammo on the market now is considerably watered down from the original Norma 180 the Col. Cooper was so crazy about. That load tears up Glocks just like it does Colt 1911's, just not as fast.

Rob

This comment stuck in my head this morning because it is completely historically backwards and just plain wrong, so after chores I've decided to address it again.

The watered down loads are nothing new, in fact, the "watered down" loads are actually the load the FBI specced out in 1988 after it became apparent the 10mm was too much gun for most FBI agents. At that time pretty much all that was on the market was the "watered down" FBI loads, and hand loading was the only way to get real 10mm rounds. In fact, it's how I got in to reloading.

Then it was realized that the "10mm lite" load didn't really require as big of a cartridge as 10mm so a new design was submitted. This load then gave birth to the .40 S&W. The "watered down" 10mm is THE ONLY reason we have the .40 S&W.

All this information can be found here, and is accurate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

Today there are about 4x as many real 10mm loads available than there was in the early 90's. An original Gen 1 Glock 20 digested them just as well as it does today. I've never seen nor heard of a Glock 20 of any generation being "torn up", and in fact it's been common knowledge for years that if you wanted to shoot real 10mm loads the Glock is the only pistol that will do it consistently.

In fact, the ONLY problem I have ever had with a G20, and ever heard of, is the Gen 1 not cycling the "watered down" loads properly because it was in fact designed from day one from the ground up to shoot the original 10mm loads. The Glock 20 frame was specifically engineered to handle the original Norma load specced by Col Cooper, and the 21 was built on the 20 frame afterwards.

Not trying to stir your nest but in 1991 when Glock came out with the Model 20 in 10mm I worked part time for the Glock "blue label" (LEO) dealer in my area. Out of the first 6 guns we sold, one of them to me, 2 frames split in under 500 rounds. Glock had us return all the guns for replacement. I know of another LEO dealer in Dallas/Ft. Worth at the time that had the same problem so I'm assuming we weren't the only ones. I also had the same problem as your friend with a Colt Delta Elite only mine lasted a few more rounds than his did.

This may have only been a problem with some of the very early gun, but it did happen. I also agree that then and now may be two different things. If you look at my post I'm a Glock fan all the way. I'm also a 10mm fan. I used to shoot a 610 S&W in competition and for shooting metallic silhouettes, it's the only S&W I ever had to seen back to the factory with under 6,000 rounds thru it to be re-built.

Rob

[vancelw]

I don't make it to NE TX, but I pass through Amarillo on my way to Austin and Houston during the holidays if you wanna drive over and buy me and the wife lunch.

The wife? Just how big an ole gal is she? Not sure I can afford two meals. That's why I buy these cheap-o Glocks!
I'm probably more likely to pass by your house than I am to be in Amarillo....it's over 400 miles from my house to there, and I haven't gone there on purpose in at least 8 years. But I could stop by and get Rob on the way. Do you know the words to Kumbaya?

Your Gen 4 Glock would only have backstraps if you put them on. They now come with 2 regular and 2 beavertail-style straps. Mine are either in the plastic box the gun came in or a drawer somewhere. They are very crude compared to S&W's M&P system. If the M&P had a more Glock-like trigger, I'd rather have those pistols. They sure fit better and , to me, are more accurate because of that.

[sore shoulder]

The wife? Just how big an ole gal is she? Not sure I can afford two meals. That's why I buy these cheap-o Glocks!
I'm probably more likely to pass by your house than I am to be in Amarillo....it's over 400 miles from my house to there, and I haven't gone there on purpose in at least 8 years. But I could stop by and get Rob on the way. Do you know the words to Kumbaya?

Well she's getting pretty hefty at 5'1" and 110 lbs. I can barely lift her with one arm. You and Rob come on over, sounds like a party.

[sore shoulder]

Not trying to stir your nest but in 1991 when Glock came out with the Model 21 in 10mm I worked part time for the Glock "blue label" (LEO) dealer in my area. Out of the first 6 guns we sold, one of them to me, 2 frames split in under 500 rounds. Glock had us return all the guns for replacement. I know of another LEO dealer in Dallas/Ft. Worth at the time that had the same problem so I'm assuming we weren't the only ones. I also had the same problem as your friend with a Colt Delta Elite only mine lasted a few more rounds than his did.

I was still shooting the 1006 in 91 so I probably missed whatever issue that was. Interesting information non the less, I would have had a hard time believing it.

If you look at my post I'm a Glock fan all the way. I'm also a 10mm fan.
Rob

I think we can be friends

[firefuzz]

Not trying to stir your nest but in 1991 when Glock came out with the Model 21 in 10mm I worked part time for the Glock "blue label" (LEO) dealer in my area. Out of the first 6 guns we sold, one of them to me, 2 frames split in under 500 rounds. Glock had us return all the guns for replacement. I know of another LEO dealer in Dallas/Ft. Worth at the time that had the same problem so I'm assuming we weren't the only ones. I also had the same problem as your friend with a Colt Delta Elite only mine lasted a few more rounds than his did.

I was still shooting the 1006 in 91 so I probably missed whatever issue that was. Interesting information non the less, I would have had a hard time believing it.

If you look at my post I'm a Glock fan all the way. I'm also a 10mm fan.
Rob

I think we can be friends

I sure hope so.

Rob

[CowboyTutt]

Once again tonight, you guys have me cracking up!!!! Frank, thanks for defending the 10mm. I don't own any Glock's yet and my selection in CA is severely limited on semi-auto handguns. Hopefully we will shoot down the "micro stamping" bill that Arnold signed into law. What an a-hole. Pray for us pal! We may have eliminated the 10 day waiting period though. -Tutt

[Panzercat]

I'm sorry fuzz but you are misinformed. Glocks are well known to be the only 10mm to handle the original real 10mm loads. It was the Colt Delta Elite that was torn apart by those original 10mm loads.

Thought I'd visit you over here as well. Gen 2s had this problem. Hasn't been seen since.
Cute pic. You'd think my .45 was a 30-30 now

[CowboyTutt]

Gotta tell you guys the lead tech at Kimber went ballistic (no pun intended) years ago when I told him I was shooting Mike's Double Tap 10mm ammo in the Kimber. I think he would have thrown Mike in jail or something if he could! LOL I'm running a 22 lb Wolf recoil spring IIRC correctly and have been for some time and all is well. The gun has not self-destructed....yet.

It's a bit handsomer than a Glock IMHO, has a trigger job, and that's all it needed. -Tutt

[sore shoulder]

Nice .40 Cooper Tutt, glad it's handling the DT. Depending which round you're shooting it might be a little less energy than the Buffalo Bore. I like DT's 135gr Nosler and BB's 180gr. BB's 180 has just under 50 more fpe than DT's. I carry the 135's in town and the 180's in the woods.

That's a shame that Kimber is worried about that, because if you're not shooting DT or BB, then really it's just a .40 short and weak/stupid and worthless.

[CowboyTutt]

That's a shame that Kimber is worried about that, because if you're not shooting DT or BB, then really it's just a .40 short and weak/stupid and worthless.

I would agree Frank, I would agree. So far it is holding up well even if Kimber did not have that in mind for it. It has some gunsmithing upgrades with the addition of an ambidextrous safety and a replacement slide stop in blued tool steel as well as the trigger job. It is a ridiculously tight 1911 handgun.

Not to say other platforms perform very well too. -Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

I can't match Mike's loads at Double Tap because he has access to a proprietary powder. He did that and he earned it. Probably the best I can do is with Accurate #7 or #9 IIRC. But Accurate #7 would seem to be the best choice with a standard non-magnum primer. -Tutt

[sore shoulder]

Have you tried Blue Dot? It's the only powder I've ever used in 10mm and it worked so well I never tried anything else. 180 gr @ 1300, which is what DT is getting. I don't know what BB is using to get that extra 50 fps but I like it. The DT 135 Nosler doing 1600 impresses me so much I never tried to load anything similar.

[CowboyTutt]

I have a huge canister of Blue Dot my friend! I use it for my 71/84 Mauser smokeless load too! I have load data from a friend using the Quick Load program and Blue Dot was not the best (Power Pistol was one of the best). But I am still in the development stage and have no chronograph data as of yet. I have some BB ammo for comparison's sake. Need to get busy!

-Tutt