AR - - - it's a conspiracy I say

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:10 pm

by the ammo makers.

took scout and CarGo out to the woods today. put the red dot on the 556 chassis, (is that better than "platform"?

), and started in on the coffee cups, shot low, the steel plate, shot low, the other steel plate, miss miss low. cranked up two and started getting center line hits with 62gr nato 556 and 55gr 223. boring. the cheapest fire control group in the global inventory gave a smooth letoff that didn't jimmy the shots. the steam punk pins work as well today as they did in the bronze era.

pulled CarGo out, switched red dot to his rail, lubed him up, stuck a mag of 300 AAC BLK 220 subsonics into it, plate ding, plate ding, clay gone, gallon of stale cranberry juice, up and spinning, ground sluiced it for a while. changed to 125gr supersonic, ding, ding ding. changed to rem 120gr OTM. ding, ding, ding. boring.

scout was pouting so I put the other stale gallon up the hill a ways and tried to drill it with the 55 grainers. no joy, could I miss that bad? started walking toward the jug, shooting as I approached. finally got close enough to see that the bilge was empty, and when I picked it up there were a dozen holes in it. dead jug.

one thing to note about the pistol. there is hardly any recoil, what's there is straight back, no muzzle flip that I can tell. it's smooth, nothing on the buffer tube and it just slides along my cheek. no bump or torque. I rigged a field expedient sling, the dog's leash, and found the length that lets me push the gun against it forward which helps steady it up, although I wasn't having any trouble hitting without the sling.

I spent more time searching for brass than emptying it. I have to make a catcher or deflecter that will centralize them. But I got about 40 or so 45ACP empties in partial compensation from the guy that shoots from the lane and dumps brass for me.

I am glad to have CarGo and feel very confident it's a good self defender. for a pistol.

It feels good having it under a jacket on the console. I'm thinking it will be a good deer gun skiff hunting in AK. Although he might get the beo mod, if he will just bear with me.

KelTec 9mm carbine is still the house gun because it's much more compact and much less likely to ventilate someone else's house.

All three of these tools are direct responses to the illigitimate, corrupt, lawless, out of control whatchamacallems, to whom I am thankful for opening up the world of spendthrift ammo consumption. My conservative gene finally acquiesed; you have to see it to understand it.

Grizz

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:33 pm

AR's are the Lego's of the gun world.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:48 pm

sore shoulder wrote:AR's are the Lego's of the gun world.

Kind of a rifle-version of a Glock.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:59 pm

Grizz wrote:
KelTec 9mm carbine is still the house gun because it's much more compact and much less likely to ventilate someone else's house.

.223 is much less likely than 9mm to ventilate someone else's house. .300 BLK, especially heavies, is probably more likely.

ARs make sense, don't they? Even if you don't like them at first (like me) you kind of have to come around to appreciate them once you recognize the usefulness, advantages of the design, and advantages of the calibers.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:24 pm

yeah they're fun. I like 'em a lot.

are 9mms really prone to pass-thru on home invaders? I hadn't gotten that memo.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:53 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:AR's are the Lego's of the gun world.
Kind of a rifle-version of a Glock.

I would have said "...1911". As there are a myriad of accessories for the 1911, to personalize it... tho' quite a few require some minimal gunsmithin' skills, while others require more complex work.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:02 am

1911 for sure - just like an AR, you can sell a guy one and sell him parts and accessories for the rest of his life.

On the 9mm, the reason that the pistol caliber carbines and sub-guns are disappearing from law enforcement in favor of 5.56 carbines is because they have poorer terminal performance on humans than 5.56 and are much more likely to be lethal after penetrating a wall than pistol calibers. 9mm is actually pretty good at penetrating walls, especially from a carbine.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:09 pm

Yes --- its tough to build one that won't shoot if you practice due diligence in assembly . I guess thats why im an "on again, off again" AR fan -- My last time out with one was when a buddy and i were zeroing my new M14 .. (err M1A , old habits die hard).
I also had a Colt M4 (6920) that hadnt been zeroed yet. We were usung cheaper factory xm193 ammo which isnt known for accuracy , but after 3 or 4 rounds at the 25, then the 50, then the same at 100, the group results likely wouldnt make too many folks' brag board, but i shrugged and looked at my buddy and said ---"at this point we're just making noise-- this thing is dialled"

He took 5 shots at the the 100 meter board with similar results and we wiped it down and put it back in its case.

Next up was my M16 604 (on a semi auto lower) - this one has a Colt style 4x carry handle scope and i normally have a good time shooting it -- but the results were even better . The 1/12 twist barrel is optimized a bit for the 55gr pills and the results were better still, - i put 5 rounds downrange, verified results with a spotting scope, then put it back into the case -----

Shooting paper is boring

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:45 pm

Griff wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:AR's are the Lego's of the gun world.
Kind of a rifle-version of a Glock.
I would have said "...1911". As there are a myriad of accessories for the 1911, to personalize it... tho' quite a few require some minimal gunsmithin' skills, while others require more complex work.

I guess I was thinking of it this way:

M1A's and 1911's go together - robust if heavy design, powerful ballistics, generally not switch-caliber but plenty of aftermarket add-ons and upgraded parts. Also both are very 'classic' and attractive designs - guns you can warm up to and 'bond' with.

AR's and Glocks go together - lighter weight, less power but more capacity, fairly easy to switch calibers, and plenty of aftermarket stuff. Both are arguably more practical, if not more reliable, than their older counterparts. Neither is what I'd consider 'classic' or attractive - not guns you'd sit and sentimentally gaze at while you relax by the fire in the evening and read.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:47 pm

.223 is much less likely than 9mm to ventilate someone else's house

just for clarification . . . I trust you know I appreciate your experience . . . .

my gold dots stop in the second water jug from my xdsubcom. are they really going to pass through a torso or skull with enough snuff to penetrate walls?

not asking in doubt, just curiosity and caution.

the 9mm ball from the carbine does in fact have more smack-down, on steel pop-ups, than the pistol delivers.

but, on the theory that increased velocity causes greater and faster expansion with hollow points, is the increase in velocity that detrimental?

it seems to be an issue with 223, that too slow and they don't tumble or fragment, and that limits the practical barrel length.

I am coming from a 45/70 load that penetrates 12 jugs of water, which translates to a stack of 12 cooperating bad guys. my prior 223 experience consists of shooting golf balls hanging from junipers near Mayer.

I would like to learn more about this.

I appreciate the input, thanks

Grizz

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:18 pm

Grizz,

I think the theory is that at the speeds the 223 is going, most of the bullets out there will start shedding their jacket quicker and start breaking apart faster than a slower moving bullet which will stay more intact after it hits something, but maybe not a rapidly expanding one like a gold dot or a winchester sxt

Makes me glad i live in an area where i dont have to worry about that too much though- nearest house is 1/4 mile away. If i was in an apartment or an area surrounded by siding houses, i would think about it though. A month ago, in a neighboring town to me, a sleeping 14 yo girl was shot and killed during a argument and shooting that happened on the street outside.
This isnt Detroit or Gary Indiana either. Moore, Oklahoma is mainstream USA. Makes it all the more shocking when things like this (plus the disgruntled Muslim food service worker last year) happen

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:24 pm

Got a new subscription to Guns&Ammo last year and this tactical stuff is about all of that is in that platform anymore.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:57 pm

AJMD429 wrote: ... Glocks... less power...

I beg to differ sir. May I introduce you to the Glock models 20 and 21, with the 21 .45 ACP matching and surpassing the 1911, and the model 20 10mm which leaves the 1911 in the dust with 15+1 rounds at 750+fpe.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:16 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
Griff wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:AR's are the Lego's of the gun world.
Kind of a rifle-version of a Glock.
I would have said "...1911". As there are a myriad of accessories for the 1911, to personalize it... tho' quite a few require some minimal gunsmithin' skills, while others require more complex work.
I guess I was thinking of it this way:

M1A's and 1911's go together - robust if heavy design, powerful ballistics, generally not switch-caliber but plenty of aftermarket add-ons and upgraded parts. Also both are very 'classic' and attractive designs - guns you can warm up to and 'bond' with.

AR's and Glocks go together - lighter weight, less power but more capacity, fairly easy to switch calibers, and plenty of aftermarket stuff. Both are arguably more practical, if not more reliable, than their older counterparts. Neither is what I'd consider 'classic' or attractive - not guns you'd sit and sentimentally gaze at while you relax by the fire in the evening and read.

Some of us OLD PHARTS remember the AR & 1911... before there was a glut of crummy, euro-trash Glocks imported to the USA. OH? Did I say that out loud?

But, since you put it that way... I see the train of thought... I was strictly thinkin' out the ability to change parts and sorta "personalize" the rifle & handgun. From my view, you either like the Glock... or get rid of it, 'cause there ain't much personalizing available.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:50 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:... Glocks... less power...
I beg to differ sir. May I introduce you to the Glock models 20 and 21, with the 21 .45 ACP matching and surpassing the 1911, and the model 20 10mm which leaves the 1911 in the dust with 15+1 rounds at 750+fpe.

True; I was thinking of the 'original' Glocks in 9mm, but the 10mm is a different beast for sure. Kind of like putting on a 50 Beowulf upper on an AR-15...

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:14 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:... Glocks... less power...
I beg to differ sir. May I introduce you to the Glock models 20 and 21, with the 21 .45 ACP matching and surpassing the 1911, and the model 20 10mm which leaves the 1911 in the dust with 15+1 rounds at 750+fpe.
True; I was thinking of the 'original' Glocks in 9mm, but the 10mm is a different beast for sure. Kind of like putting on a 50 Beowulf upper on an AR-15...

Still can't alter 'em with the ease of the 1911 for "personality"...

Having never seen a Glock "Texas BBQ" gun... I think I can say that without fear of contradiction!

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:49 pm

I dont even know what BBQ gun is lol.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:51 pm

As far as accessorizing

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:57 pm

Heres a nice 10mm carbine.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:59 pm

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:00 pm

Grizz wrote: just for clarification . . . I trust you know I appreciate your experience . . . .

my gold dots stop in the second water jug from my xdsubcom. are they really going to pass through a torso or skull with enough snuff to penetrate walls?

not asking in doubt, just curiosity and caution.

Nope, I would worry very little about over-penetration of a person resulting in injury to someone else with 9mm fired from a pistol.

Fired from a carbine, the possibility is increased, but there is small likelihood of penetrating a person, a wall, another wall, and hitting a neighbor inside his house. If you miss, then the likelihood increases, but the threat from penetrating a wall will be greatest on the other side of one interior wall, and less of a concern when you start to consider multiple exterior walls.

LE have to consider a lot of different possibilities than you do - you know your situation in your own home, I know mine, and we are not kicking down doors to enter the unknown.

.223 is superior from a Carbine than 9mm from a carbine in terminal performance, in avoiding penetrating walls, and sometimes in recoil, depending on the carbine. 9mm is quieter than 5.56, with less muzzle flash. The shorter the barrel, the bigger advantage the 9mm has in these areas. In most cases, either one will do what is needed for self-defense in or around the home.

If you use 5.56, the 77 gr OTM (Mk262) is the load for devastating terminal effect on humans and little penetration potential on even interior walls. If you need barrier penetration, the 55 or 62 gr. TSX loads are the ticket. Keep a mag of each with the gun. If you use 9mm, stick with any good HPs and avoid the frangible stuff - it is proven to have poor wounding reliability, yet is no less likely (more likely in some cases) to penetrate walls. If you need barrier penetration, use some good FMJs. Main thing is to hit the target, which I am sure you are quite capable of doing.

If you have a lot of people in different rooms inside your home, you might seriously consider the penetration potential of 9mm from a carbine. If you are just worried about hitting someone in a neighboring house, unless you miss and shoot through a window, I would not be too concerned. A 9mm HP that makes it through two exterior walls and the intervening space will likely have little wounding potential after that.

Now if you were using a .45-70 . . . call all your neighbors and tell them to duck . . .

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:02 pm

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:04 pm

So yea Griff, nothing as shiny as that 1911 but like the saying goes, 1911's are what you show your friends, Glocks are what you show your enemy.

Or one I coined.

Someday I will have a Model T, horse drawn farm implements, and a 1911.

rodeo kid · Post by **rodeo kid** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:45 pm

Sore Shoulder, I can only say them Glocky rifle looking things sure look silly, the tan one is just yucky.

And are they even legal when you put a stock on them? Give me my Browning Hi Power or my trusty 1911 any day. Wood and steel, wood and steel, I say. God Bless.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:41 am

My vision of a GLOCK BBQ Gun is a GLOCK laying melted all over the grate of the BBQ Grill!

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:09 am

rodeo kid wrote:Sore Shoulder, I can only say them Glocky rifle looking things sure look silly, the tan one is just yucky. And are they even legal when you put a stock on them? Give me my Browning Hi Power or my trusty 1911 any day. Wood and steel, wood and steel, I say. God Bless.

No and yes. The short barreled stocked gun is illegal without gov permission and tax stamp etc, not sure which one but most likely SBR, though I'm not sure since it started out as a pistol not a rifle. The 16" barreled carbine is technically legal. As far as switching it back and forth, that I am not sure of either.

Don't get me wrong, I've always loved the 1911 ever since I saw Magnum PI stuff one in his waist band when I was a kid. I carried one in a mexican holster and toolbags for 7 years. However I'm a fan of simplicity, and Glock in my opinion has made the evolutionary step. When my 10mm has twice the energy as ball .45ACP and twice the ammo, and loaded it weighs less than an unloaded 1911, it's an easy decision for me. And when I saw my wife and daughters group sizes shrink and their confidence go through the roof shooting the Glock 17 compared to 1911, I realized Glock had made the perfect gun for women who don't shoot a lot.

But in the end it's really what each person likes and we are the most fortunate people on the planet to have the options. The rest is just food for discussion, magazine articles, and internet brawls.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:31 pm

65% of all LE Agencies carry a Glock, my Agency does..Glock's work, they are reliable, accurate and tough--they work wet, dirty, muddy, frozen, dragged out-of salt-water, fresh-water, muddy water...dragged behind a pick-up, dropped out of an airplane, or run-over by a car..are they "perfection", NO, but for the LEO on the street they simply work...they work so well that Smith & Wesson created their own called the M&P...and did I mention high-capacity... :)

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:33 pm

Soulless euro-trash... no character... no panache (in case you're wondering: flamboyant confidence of style or manner)... The Glock is just a tool... and all that entails under any definition!

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:01 pm

Glocks are great, 1911's are great. 1911's do have nice lines; glocks, well. 10mm is a semi-auto 41 Mag.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:16 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:Now if you were using a .45-70 . . . call all your neighbors and tell them to duck . . .

Yep. That's probably the most likely to go and go and go and then go some more, unless it hits armor plate or something.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:28 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
7.62 Precision wrote:Now if you were using a .45-70 . . . call all your neighbors and tell them to duck . . .
Yep. That's probably the most likely to go and go and go and then go some more, unless it hits armor plate or something.

No, gravity will take over guidance before too long...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:28 pm

Griff wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:
7.62 Precision wrote:Now if you were using a .45-70 . . . call all your neighbors and tell them to duck . . .
Yep. That's probably the most likely to go and go and go and then go some more, unless it hits armor plate or something.
No, gravity will take over guidance before too long...

hey, that load has a 250 yard point blank range

on Bison . . .

MacEntyre · Post by **MacEntyre** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:56 am

sore shoulder wrote:Heres a nice 10mm carbine.

I want an AR in 10mm real bad...

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:58 pm

Olympic Arms has/does make one, however their 18 round proprietary mags leave me cold. Maybe I'm being picky.

http://www.olyarms.com/shop/rifles/ar-1 ... odels.html

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:41 pm

1892 wrote:Glock's . . . . work so well that Smith & Wesson created their own called the M&P...and did I mention high-capacity...

No it was called a Sigma, didn't work so well, was uglier than any Glock, and had a horrible trigger.

And they had to pay Glock for it in the end.

They've since improved with the M&P.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:57 pm

The later Sigmas got better.

The M&P was designed to beat Glock at it's own game, they specifically went in and fixed everything Glock wouldn't that people complained about.

Glock, having been told by the Glock USA branch since about 1999 this was coming, finally had to release the Gen 4 guns after sales dropped too much.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:14 pm

Back to AR`s.... They are like film cameras used to be. They made them just as cheaply as possible and still work so they can sell that $9.00 a roll film. With AR`s they sell gadgets and ammo.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:23 pm

sore shoulder wrote:Olympic Arms has/does make one, however their 18 round proprietary mags leave me cold. Maybe I'm being picky.

http://www.olyarms.com/shop/rifles/ar-1 ... odels.html

That giant box magazine does look disconcerting --- The only Glocks i own are the 20 and 29 (well, also a 42, but who's counting) --- and so i think they dropped the ball by not offering it up to take Glock mags like the .40 and 9mm carbines

I wonder if they even sell any of those ugly things

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:42 pm

They would have to make a dedicated lower for the G20 mags, they make them for Glock 9mm and .40 mags. The G20/21 mags are too wide for an AR magwell.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:11 pm

Grizz wrote:yeah they're fun. I like 'em a lot.

are 9mms really prone to pass-thru on home invaders? I hadn't gotten that memo.

Don't need to "pass through". Most shots miss the target completely.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:48 pm

BAGTIC wrote:
Grizz wrote:yeah they're fun. I like 'em a lot.

are 9mms really prone to pass-thru on home invaders? I hadn't gotten that memo.

Don't need to "pass through". Most shots miss the target completely.

my scots gene makes me too cheap to miss . . . waste not, want not . . .