44-40 Extra Long...

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
cshold
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 5372
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:09 am

44-40 Extra Long...

Post by cshold »

8)

"I believe this non head stamped cartridge to be the often discussed but seldom seen .44-40 Extra Long. Several of the standard references over the years pictured this cartridge, but none provided much information on what firearm it was intended for. Robert Buttweiller sold quite a few of these in his auctions, and usually mentioned in his catalog descriptions the lack of definitive information on the firearm and the maker. However, in his Collector's Ammunition volume XI, number 2 (November 30, 1996) he lists a cartridge that matches the one pictured here, and mentions in the description a recently unearthed UMC journal, in which there is an entry dated May 1888 for a .44-50 center fire Spencer. It was described as a .44 Winchester with a case 1/4" longer than standard, 50 grains of powder, and a regular 200 grain bullet seated and crimped the same as for the Winchester. This cartridge seems to fit the description of the UMC .44 Spencer CF, with a case that measures about .26" longer than the .44-40 case and a .44-40 style bullet."

The dimensions are as follows:

bullet - .434"

neck - .441"

base - .466"

rim - 1.573"

case - 1.573

overall - 1.842"
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
rjohns94
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 10820
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:02 pm
Location: York, PA

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by rjohns94 »

Kewl. Learn something every day
Mike Johnson,

"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by Grizz »

that is really interesting.

magnumitis is in the dna.

hey, can you make this one a little longer, I missed a deer at the edge of the other field.... by just a little bit.
cshold
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 5372
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:09 am

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by cshold »

As the good book says...
There's nothing new under the sun.
Magnumitis was going on even back in the holy black only days :D
It is an awesome looking little round.
I sure wouldn't mind playing with it. 8)
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by Griff »

I wonder if they did something different with the rifling for this .44-50? I suspect the .45-60 had already gained acceptance for those wishing for a median power cartridge... and UMC didn't see it going anywhere near "up" in the sales charts...
rjohns94 wrote:Kewl. Learn something every day
But, yea verily!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
User avatar
earlmck
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3423
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:10 am
Location: pert-neer middle of Oregon

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by earlmck »

Verrry interesting. I had not realized there were variations in the Spencer rifle to include different calibers.
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies.
Patrick Henry
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 16687
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by Old Savage »

But when the Good Book said that there was no 44-40.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
cshold
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 5372
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:09 am

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by cshold »

3leggedturtle
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4145
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:34 am
Location: north of Palacios about 1400 miles

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by 3leggedturtle »

I spent many a cold winter night looking at the old and obsolete cartridges section of COTW and realizing its been done already and alot, not only here; but over in Europe as well.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
User avatar
ollogger
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2794
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:47 pm
Location: Wheatland Wyoming
Contact:

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by ollogger »

Frank Barnes said from what he found out from collector's it was a shot cartridge with a
bullet shoved in it ???




Brad
cshold
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 5372
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:09 am

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by cshold »

ollogger wrote:Frank Barnes said from what he found out from collector's it was a shot cartridge with a
bullet shoved in it ???




Brad
Good :idea:
Back in the day Recycling at it's best 8)
I wonder what the added horse power was with that extra 10 grains of black behind the 200 grain pill.
Tactical Lever
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:44 am
Location: God's Country NW or most

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by Tactical Lever »

Old Savage wrote:But when the Good Book said that there was no 44-40.
"Before I cast thee in the mould I knew thee; and before thou camest forth in brass I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a king among .44 caliber rounds. And set thee a place in the most high of fast handling lever actions."

I might be paraphrasing a little bit! :lol:
Profanity is a poor substitute for a proper education.
cshold
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 5372
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:09 am

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by cshold »

Tactical Lever wrote:
Old Savage wrote:But when the Good Book said that there was no 44-40.
"Before I cast thee in the mould I knew thee; and before thou camest forth in brass I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a king among .44 caliber rounds. And set thee a place in the most high of fast handling lever actions."

I might be paraphrasing a little bit! :lol:
Well done, I like that. 8)
No doubt that will show up on some signature lines in BP cartridge forums. :)
Tactical Lever
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:44 am
Location: God's Country NW or most

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by Tactical Lever »

casastahle wrote:
Tactical Lever wrote:
Old Savage wrote:But when the Good Book said that there was no 44-40.
"Before I cast thee in the mould I knew thee; and before thou camest forth in brass I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a king among .44 caliber rounds. And set thee a place in the most high of fast handling lever actions."

I might be paraphrasing a little bit! :lol:
Well done, I like that. 8)
No doubt that will show up on some signature lines in BP cartridge forums. :)
Thanks! I'm glad you got a kick out of it. :D
Profanity is a poor substitute for a proper education.
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by Griff »

If only the Spencer had its hammer cocked when working the lever!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
M. M. Wright
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4296
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:57 pm
Location: Vinita, I.T.

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by M. M. Wright »

Didn't know if it's existence and I have lots of experience with 44-40, (60 years). Sounds it might be interesting in a low wall.
M. M. Wright, Sheriff, Green county Arkansas (1860)
Currently living my eternal life.
NRA Life
SASS
ITSASS
Cranker
Levergunner
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:46 pm

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by Cranker »

The original posting mentioned the reference found in a UMC Journal of 1888. I did some searching on this and found that it was in regards to some samples made up by UMC and sent to Spencer. Apparently that was the end of it and Spencer found no need to produce rifles for it. It turns out that I have a Frank Wesson 2-Trigger rifle for which I have been making 44-40 Extra Long cases using 444 Marlin brass and 44-40 reloading dies and fire forming. My rifle dates between 1872 and roughly 1875 or 1876. This gives credence to the "44-40 Extra Long" ammo examples with no headstamp actually being 44-40 Extra Long. I am attempting to find an example of this old ammo to compare with my chamber. Any help would be appreciated.
Mike Armstrong
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 506
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:21 pm

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by Mike Armstrong »

It's confusing because there is also a ".44 XL" which is a .44 WCF with an elongated neck area that was originally loaded with birdshot and is thought by some to be the ancestor of the .410 shotshell. I've seen them in break action Stevens and H&R single shot shotguns, but the most interesting one is the Stevens "Model 101," which is a Stevens "Crackshot" breakopen rifle but smoothbore barreled for the ".44 XL Shot" and so marked. The .44 XL was also sometimes loaded with a single .44 lead ball. I've also seen Stevens Model 44 single shots barreled for this ctg.
3leggedturtle
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4145
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:34 am
Location: north of Palacios about 1400 miles

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by 3leggedturtle »

I read the U.S. Army was also testing a .43 cartridge along side the 45*70. It looked alot like the .444 Marlin. I can oy wonder what would have done to change hustory!
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
Bill in Oregon
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8849
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:05 am
Location: Sweetwater, TX

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Cranker, good heavens, man, let us see some photos of your Wesson rifle -- and some targets!
Todd, it is a lot of fun to read COTW and dream. The Obsolete American chapter is my favorite. 8)
Cranker
Levergunner
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:46 pm

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by Cranker »

Received a U.M.C. cartridge today headstamped .44-40 which matched my chamber cast. Also in the first pic are 2 cases as made from 444 Marlin cut to 1.6 inches and full length sized in a 44-40 WCF die with no decapper in it. They have yet to be fire formed. The second pic is my Frank Wesson. The rear sight is folded down for cleaning access.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
rossim92
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1416
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:42 am
Location: mechanicsville, md.

Re: 44-40 Extra Long...

Post by rossim92 »

Grizz wrote: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:51 am that is really interesting.

magnumitis is in the dna.

hey, can you make this one a little longer, I missed a deer at the edge of the other field.... by just a little bit.
I have the same problem with girls. :oops:
Rossi 92 .357 lever , and a cz pcr 9mm
Henry .22 lever, Remington speedmaster 552 .22 lr
Marlin Glenfield .22 boltaction
gforce 12ga semi
Taylor's Tactical 1911 A1 FS in .45acp
winchester 1873 44.40
Marlin 336W .30.30
beeman sportsman rs2 dual caliber pellet rifle
henry .22 magnum pumpaction/octagon barrel
stag 5.56 m4 with reddot
Post Reply