Interesting concept on pointed bullets in tubular mags

[kaschi]

The October 2014 American Rifleman has an article on the French 1886/93 Lebel Rifle chambered for the 8x50Rmm. I didn't read the article in its entirety but a couple of pictures on pages 69/70 prompted me to read parts of it regarding the use of pointed bullets in the tubular mag as found on this rifle.

The 1886/93 has a tubular magazine which is loaded by retracting the bolt and inserting the cartridges on a slant under the chamber which is kind of interesting in itself. The early cartridges had a flat bullet and the base of the casings were flat. Now here's where it gets interesting: Later 8x50R rounds had spitzer type bullets and the base of the casings had an "O-ring crimp added to the base which held the bullet tip captive away from the primer" (the wording used in the article).

That really is an interesting idea and it must have worked but I still do not understand why the point of a bullet doesn't gravitate to the middle point (namely, to the center of the primer in front of it). Could someone please explain this? Thanks.

[w30wcf]

If you lay two cartridges in a line on a flat surface you will see that the downward slope of the cartridge places the point of the bullet away from the primer.

W30wcf

[m.wun]

Even more so when you have a rimmed cart. with a pronounced taper.

[kaschi]

Got it! Makes total sense when visualized as you both explained it.

[AJMD429]

Still I have a hard time filing that under "mechanical concepts I'd gladly risk my life trusting..."

[BenT]

Remington sold a lot of model 14's and 141's with the spiral magazine tube to keep the point of the bullet away from the primer of the next cartridge. I haven't read anything about rounds going off in the magazine tube with those guns. But I am not sure how much of the ammo for those guns were sold with spitzer bullets either.

[Ben_Rumson]

That was a very informative article... Never knew the Lebel would hold 10 rounds...I thought the "crimp ring" a very clever solution for spitzer bullets in a tubular magazine...Must have worked fine because the Frenchies stuck with it for many years... You can bet if there were chain fires in the mag tube a lot would have been made of it and it would be the first thing we'd hear about the Lebel...

[Nath]

Still I have a hard time filing that under "mechanical concepts I'd gladly risk my life trusting..."

You don't drive an automobile or fly then?

Pointy bullets in tubular magazines has been over hyped for years, more have died falling whilst out hunting than if someone loaded pointy bullets in there 30/30 levergun (and got it to cycle!).

Just my take

N.

[kaschi]

I took another look at the pics of the cartridges for the Lebel in the article and noticed two things (in light of what a couple of you mentioned): how rapidly tapered they are and how stout they are at the base/case head meaning that the points of the bullets REALLY do not contact the primers on the rounds in front of them.

On a different note regarding tubular magazines, a couple of things got me to thinking: Wonder why Winchester never adopted the Remington Model 14 spiral tube idea on the 94? Maybe a patent issue?..... Also, were the 25, 30 and 32 Remington rounds ever offered with pointed bullets? The 35 Remington may still be available in 150 PSP by Remington to this day, but as far back as the 60's, I NEVER recall seeing the 30 or 32 Rem offered by any ammo manufacturers with pointed bullets.

[Merle]

Even more so when you have a rimmed cart. with a pronounced taper.

and the 8mm Lebel DEFINATELY has case taper!

[AJMD429]

Still I have a hard time filing that under "mechanical concepts I'd gladly risk my life trusting..."

You don't drive an automobile or fly then?

Only with extreme trepidation...

[piller]

Still I have a hard time filing that under "mechanical concepts I'd gladly risk my life trusting..."

You don't drive an automobile or fly then?

Only with extreme trepidation...

Better than extreme Trepannation.

[earlmck]

Wonder why Winchester never adopted the Remington Model 14 spiral tube idea on the 94? Maybe a patent issue?..... Also, were the 25, 30 and 32 Remington rounds ever offered with pointed bullets? The 35 Remington may still be available in 150 PSP by Remington to this day, but as far back as the 60's, I NEVER recall seeing the 30 or 32 Rem offered by any ammo manufacturers with pointed bullets.

As implemented by Remington, the spiral magazine does not work with pointed bullets in anything smaller than 35 Remington. As the proud owner of several of these fine old pumps, one of the first things I did was to load up some nice pointy bullets in my 25 and 30 Remingtons. The spiral flutes are so effective at forcing the bullet to the side of the tube that the point of the bullet jams between the case ahead of it and the wall of the magazine, preventing you from loading more than one pointy cartridge in the magazine. If you hold your mouth just right you can load pointy 35 Remington cartridges, though they really want to jam also. That 35 Rem is just enough fatter cartridge you can get the job done if you work carefully.

Now the real question is why Winchester and Marlin didn't copy Remington's handy little step in the loading gate that holds the partially inserted round nicely in place while you take all the time you want getting the next round ready to insert. When I bring out my own "earlmck lever" rifle I am doing to include the "Remington Stepped loading gate". And maybe use their rimless cases also (the Remington Benchrest cases, that is).

[carbluesnake]

I know I load 200 gr. .35 cal spitzer Hornaday bullets in my 35 Rem.model 141, and I have never had any problem with functioning or rounds going off when they are not supposed to.

[Ben_Rumson]

Thanks Earl ...good info on spiral magazine

[kaschi]

Thanks for the good info Earl. I've got Model 14s in all of the calibers but have never toyed with the idea of trying pointed bullets in them. After reading what you wrote, I'm glad I didn't.

One last thing I've frequently pondered while we're on this topic: I've never understood why Remington continues to load the 35 Remington with 150 grain PSP bullets. It seems there are probably more Marlin 336s in 35 Rem around (and in constant use) over the past several decades than there are Model 14s and 141s. With all the hype as to the dangers of using pointed bullets in tube mags, one would have thought they simply would have discontinued the practice if it were a real concern. But then again, maybe Remington doesn't care what Marlin owners do..... Maybe we'll never know.

[Tycer]

Thanks for the good info Earl. I've got Model 14s in all of the calibers but have never toyed with the idea of trying pointed bullets in them. After reading what you wrote, I'm glad I didn't.

One last thing I've frequently pondered while we're on this topic: I've never understood why Remington continues to load the 35 Remington with 150 grain PSP bullets. It seems there are probably more Marlin 336s in 35 Rem around (and in constant use) over the past several decades than there are Model 14s and 141s. With all the hype as to the dangers of using pointed bullets in tube mags, one would have thought they simply would have discontinued the practice if it were a real concern. But then again, maybe Remington doesn't care what Marlin owners do..... Maybe we'll never know.

I'll hazard to guess that it's a non-issue. If the lawyers told Marlin to do it differently, they would.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

As I recall, all of the mag tube detonations that have made it to the web over the last twenty years that I've seen have been RN bullets in large pistol calibers. Also, I seem to recall that a couple were questioning that large rifle primers in large pistol pockets may have contributed. Those seem like they would both result in a questionable geometry problem that could well lead to a tube detonation.

Anyone seen an example in a tapered / rimmed rifle cartridge of a blowup?

[earlmck]

As I recall, all of the mag tube detonations that have made it to the web over the last twenty years that I've seen have been RN bullets in large pistol calibers. Also, I seem to recall that a couple were questioning that large rifle primers in large pistol pockets may have contributed. Those seem like they would both result in a questionable geometry problem that could well lead to a tube detonation.

Anyone seen an example in a tapered / rimmed rifle cartridge of a blowup?

No I haven't, Rimfire. And I tried and failed to get such an ignition a few years ago even going so far as to epoxy a firing pin into the nose of my "igniter cartridge". And even on that untapered 454 Casull cartridge I had to wrap a batch of tape around the neck area to level the cartridge out so the nose of my "igniter cartridge" would impact the primer in the case ahead of it.

One of our fellow levergunners, Muskeg13, had a nasty bad ignition in the magazine that caused him some real body damage. Flat nosed hard cast bullet in 44 mag was the culprit. At least that is what he was shooting. Looking at his pictures I did wonder if it wasn't the cartridge released by the cartridge stop, sliding into the "ready" position, that ignited.

So like they say, "Never say Never". But I would say "Virtually Never". And maybe "Totally Never" for tapered rimmed cartridges loaded with soft point spitzers.

[Nath]

She we say "detonation" in this context do they really detonate?
Does pressure rise at the same rate as in a snug chamber and barrel?

Apart from that, I think stout magazine springs go a long way in preventing any cartridges bouncing around in there. Maybe some have llightens said spring to aid loading but have heightened this risk!

N.