I reload like a grandmother, or rules to load by.

[Canuck Bob]

This struck me like an interesting thread from something I started on another forum.

"I reload like a granny due to some rules I never break. I'm a greenhorn and realize the old pros will find this awfuly simplistic and lacking flexibility for a high volume loader.

All loads are 55% case capacity minimum. If I double charge the case must overflow. This one is never broken.

I never load to manual max loads and rarely get past half way from starting to full loads listed before I'm satisfied with accuracy or ditch the powder if it won't shoot.

Different primer types come from different manufacturers so I can look at a primed case and know if it is a magnum or standard rifle primer.

I use only specific bullets for hunting and never load those bullets in anything but a single worked up load. I missed my only true trophy buck trying to shoot him with a rabbit load.

The only fast powder I'll use is Trail Boss as it is safe to 100% capacty to bullet base in anything I shoot.

Have never owned a powder measure, every charge is weighed. If I loaded real volumes of ammo this would be impossible. It does work for me though.

Issues of cost never overule safety.

Anyone else want to admit to some granny rules that I can add to my list?"

Here is link for the resulting thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... ad-by-quot

Check out post #18 by tommygirlMT, priceless!

[Canuck Bob]

This is posted as a result of the great case cleaning safety thread.

I have changed some of those listed since.

I standardized on Win small and large rifle primers because of reasonable supply with the same lot number and no problem tracking primer use any more.

I bought some fast Lil Gun for my new hornet.

I also practice granny safety rules around casting and lead handling as a result of a blood disorder. No sense aggravating the problem but not casting is not an option.

I wish to note that I do not in any way judge other reloaders. I am fully aware that my rules are often not necessary or sensible to many safe reloaders. People far more accomplished than me would not consider cast without Unique for very good reasons. Guys shooting my output for a year every month would be weighing charges 80 hours a week!!

I think I once double charged a 45 ACP and vowed to never repeat that show!

[vancelw]

If I load a block of 20, 50, or 100 at a time, I load the powder in all before seating any bullets.

Granny rule: Use a flashlight to visually inspect all cases to make sure they all appear to have the same amount of powder. No missed loads...no double loads.

[BrentD]

I like this thread. I almost always load blackpowder, and have never had any issues (double charging being impossible). I have also never failed to load a black charge either.

Such is not the same with smokeless. I pick up a piece of primed brass and I don't put it down until the bullet is seated and crimped. And this has worked well enough for me that I have not every double charged. My charges of smokeless are generally at or near the 50% mark so this would be hard to do anyway, but I've never caught myself "almost" doing it.

The same cannot be said for failing to charge a case. I have done that. And it can have serious repercussions if you don't realize that your gun failed to fire rather than you simply missed. Sounds like that would be all but impossible to have happen with almost any centerfire cartridge but in competitions where focus is entirely on making a good shot, it is easy to not realize that the bullet failed to exit. I simply do not notice recoil in my lever guns which generally have lighter loads. This can lead to a bulged barrel or worse.

for me, it is the underloads, not the overloads that concern me most. Albeit, I avoid things like Unique and Bullseye just minimize the potential of double charging.

[1894c]

That NO SMOKING rule is probably a really good idea...I have a turret press, it's as fast as I want to go..yeah I load like they just let me out of the home with my walker... :)

[iceman]

When I load I always put the empty cases mouth down in the block (primers up) this way I'm sure the case is primed properly and empty. Once charged with powder obviously right side up. I once seated a bullet on an empty case. luckily only at the range when I found out, but still had to knock the bullet out with a rod. The primer had enough power to just drive the bullet out of the case and into throat of the chamber. that could have really ruined a hunt.

[Larkbill]

"I pick up a piece of primed brass and I don't put it down until the bullet is seated and crimped."

What I have always done. Brass is base up in the block, base down and bullet up when done. Also look into case in strong light before putting it in the press to seat. Have never had a double charge or failure to charge.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I charge all the cases in my loading block and then seat bullets after inspecting powder levels. Be sure your primed empty cases are out of reach when seating bullets.
Only keep one type(brand and grade) of powder on the bench at any time.
Double check the load recipe in a manual each time you start a new batch. I keep nothing to memory when it comes to load recipes. One brain fanny burp and a possible KABOOM!!

[TedH]

I'm not quite so particular, but I do like Vance does, and use a bright light to examine powder level in charged cases in the loading block. Really that's the only thing that's going to cause a wreck, not enough powder or too much. Everything else will be obvious to see if your working diligently.

[ollogger]

am very cautious myself & give or take on 40 years ive not had any serious surprise's
with my hand loads



ollogger

[horsesoldier03]

I load slower than granny. I sort, tumble and then deprime/resize brass and then it goes into storage. Once I am ready to reload, I use the sizing die that bells the mouth of the case on all brass that will be reloaded during the session. Once that is complete, I insert the bullet seating die and set it to specs. The last thing I do before I begin to reload the cartridges is to zero my scale and calibrate my powder throw. From that point on, I inspect each round once again to ensure it has no debris in the case and the primer is properly seated. Then place the powder charge in the cartridge, put the case into my single stage press, and then seat the bullet. I do not beleive in dropping charges in numerous cartridges before I seat the bullet. IMO, that is just asking for an AWWWW SH&*.

[AJMD429]

I also pretty much refuse to use any load data that doesn't make a double-charge impossible.

The same cannot be said for failing to charge a case. I have done that. And it can have serious repercussions if you don't realize that your gun failed to fire rather than you simply missed. Sounds like that would be all but impossible to have happen with almost any centerfire cartridge but in competitions where focus is entirely on making a good shot, it is easy to not realize that the bullet failed to exit. I simply do not notice recoil in my lever guns which generally have lighter loads. This can lead to a bulged barrel or worse.

for me, it is the underloads, not the overloads that concern me most. Albeit, I avoid things like Unique and Bullseye just minimize the potential of double charging.

Yep - one of the worst things about semiauto firearms is the fact that you can SO easily pull the trigger for the next shot prior to registering the fact that the previous shot wasn't 'normal' somehow. That's why I relegate semiauto firearms (or at least rapid firing of semiautos) to self-defense only.

[piller]

Some people are lucky, and some people are careful. I must use care due to the fact that my luck is seldom good. One time I overcharged a few loads before stopping to go to the bathroom. On the way back, I stopped and looked at the recipe one more time as I sat down at the bench, looked at the scale, and dang near had to go back to the bathroom. I had the silver ball bearing right, but the sliding number on the Lee balance scale was at 9.5 when it should have been at 2.0 grains. I was using H110 in a .45 Colt with Speer 300 grain JSP and the maximum load was 22.2 grains for the Ruger load. 7.3 grains over maximum might not have blown up the pistol, but I don't want to try it. How I pushed that sliding measure to 9.5 is still a mystery to me. Ever since then, I set the scale, go do something for about 5 minutes or so, and come back and look again.

[Griff]

I've loaded fast and, I've loaded slow. Almost all my "issues", have been when I'm loading fast. And that generally means that I'm not paying attention to the details. And almost all have happened during a particular period of time... AFTER I started loading on a progressive. I bought my first Dillon in 1986... and loading the vast majority of my ammo in use at the time on it... 45ACP, 45Colt & 38Spl. Since there were two shooters in the house using 38Spl, I tended to rush thru loading those to get them done... At one time, nearly 500 rnds a week between the 2 of 'em for both practice and match use. Whereas I could get thru my week of shooting with about 200 45Colt and 100 45ACP, I had to load all their ammo. The department supplied me with 60 rounds a day for practice in my duty gun... So I tended to only shoot the 45Colt during competitions. And, as you might have guessed, the loads that using contained squibs were 38Spls.

The worst problem was at a National Championship... both the wife and son experiencing several squibs during competition. This was a match that took place over 5 days, and involved many stages and side events... Surprisingly, the squibs didn't seem to affect the boy's performance overly much, as he handily won his category... the wife struggled a little. Between the two of them they'd had 5 squibs, (no powder). Luckily, at no time did it seem to affect anything but that one shot... all but one of them coming on the last round during the course.

At this time in my reloading, I'd been reloading for just about 20 years, and for at least 6 on the Dillon. And I was running that machine hard! Easily loading 450 38Spls in an hour, for a couple of hours at a time, only stopping to fill the machine's primer tube again. (I'd have all 10 of my small primer tubes pre-filled before the loading began). I did the same when loading the 45Colt, but loading only ½ as many rounds, I'd simply take the same about of time to do it... running the machine at like about 200-250 rounds an hour.

The other major difference between then and now, I was loading 38Spl with PB... a VERY clean burning powder in moderate to light charges. And, I couldn't see the powder level in the case as it left the powder dump station to the bullet seating station. So, there was no visual inspection of powder being present at all.

Now, as my shooting has diminished a great deal, I don't need to go as fast, and I'm more careful in ensuring that I visually inspect each case as it moves from the powder drop to the seating station. To that end, I've mounted a LED light strip on the press, giving me more direct light into the case, I use a slightly bulkier powder, that fills the 38Spl case a little more. And, being as nobody in the house is competing with 38Spl, I don't need to load as many. In fact, I've still over 3,000 cases that I NEED to load... but with no need for that particular round, except as simple inventory for SD purposes... I just haven't got 'round to it, yet!

Loadin' like a grandma is relative!

[mikld]

I have an issue with folks that choose a powder that will spill over if double charged, rather than establish safe reloading techniques. I think that's just a cop out for not learning good, safe reloading practices from the get-go. Just think of all the good loads of Bullseye or W231 you'd miss by only using bulky powder. Same with primers. I have 5 different kinds of primers and I don't get any mixed up, just read the label.

First, I have only one powder and one primer (type) on my bench at a time. I use a sticky note with the load stuck to my powder measure (right in front of my face) I refer to this note before I start any processing to make sure I have the proper components out, and so I don't "forget" in the middle of a loading session. I read labels so none get mixed up. I look in every case after charging to make sure no double charges are present. I haven't had an OOPS! in 29 of my 30 years of reloading...

[vancelw]

I have an issue with folks that choose a powder that will spill over if double charged, rather than establish safe reloading techniques. I think that's just a cop out for not learning good, safe reloading practices from the get-go.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Yes, a person needs to pay attention, but having and extra safety indicator hurts not one little bit.

There are other benefits to having more powder in the case. Problems with positional ignition, while rare, are minimized with a fuller case.
For my rifle loads, I prefer the case to be as full as I can get it with a safe load. Gives me more consistency from round to round.

[MacEntyre]

Granny is smoking, but she is wearing safety glasses!

[Canuck Bob]

I have an issue with folks that choose a powder that will spill over if double charged, rather than establish safe reloading techniques. I think that's just a cop out for not learning good, safe reloading practices from the get-go.

I have an issue with you. You are saying I practice unsafe loading techniques because I practice one technique you disagree with. You do not know me well enough to make that statement. It is wrong. My safe reloading practices are as detailed and effective as yours are. I too know how to look into a case and do it.

I make mistakes and some of them are not worth the risk to me. So I do whatever I can to eliminate them and not rely on safety procedures alone. As I stated I do not judge others as unsafe because they do differently.

[AJMD429]

I have an issue with folks that choose a powder that will spill over if double charged, rather than establish safe reloading techniques. I think that's just a cop out for not learning good, safe reloading practices from the get-go.

I have an issue with you. You are saying I practice unsafe loading techniques because I practice one technique you disagree with. You do not know me well enough to make that statement. It is wrong. My safe reloading practices are as detailed and effective as yours are. I too know how to look into a case and do it.

I make mistakes and some of them are not worth the risk to me. So I do whatever I can to eliminate them and not rely on safety procedures alone. As I stated I do not judge others as unsafe because they do differently.

Gosh, I thought the only thing we'd get into arguments about here was 'politics'...

I agree with Canuck Bob; although I certainly have used dense, non-case-filling powder charges if they are the ideal ones, when given a choice between two similar quality loads, I'll choose the bulkier powder just to have one-less-source-of-error.

To me that IS a "good, safe reloading practice", along with many of the other helpful suggestions on this thread.

[Sixgun]

That 55% rule don't mean nothing, because sometimes you can get 80% in one case and 20 in the next.....using progressives.

I still can't prove it but this was a $4,000 blunder.....in 2003 dollars.----6

[AJMD429]

I think that will polish out, but you may need to re-blue it. . .

Agree about the 55% (or any other) rule not being 'enough'. ESPECIALLY with a progressive press. I've been reloading since about 1972 or so, but I am still a bit spooked when I use a progressive press; I know they are potentially much faster, but the way I hover and watch and double-check everything when I use one, I'm not all that convinced it beats my turret press.

[Ben_Rumson]

This is my Granny system... I encourage y'all to find any safety issues

I expressly only use weighed charges.... I use the Lyman 1200 DPS 2 Digital Powder Scale and Dispenser with a Lee 4 hole auto index turret press ....

In Station 1, I have a sizing die with the decapping pin removed ...
Station 2, Lee's powder thru expander die ...
Station 3 has the seating die
Station 4 the crimping die..

I have found no way to double charge powder or bullets so far with this procedure, I guess because it's not very fast....
A lubed primed case is placed in the shell holder... the ram is raised the case is sized... I lower the ram and the powder thru expander die is indexed over the case ...I then start the Lyman machine... As the powder is being weighed out I raise the ram (expands and flares the case) and place the Lee powder funnel in the adapter atop the powder thru expander die...By that time the powder is weighed out... I then pick up the pan off the scale and pour it into the funnel, place the pan back on the scale.... I lower the ram, the turret indexes the seating die over the charged case... I place a bullet in the flared case mouth and raise the ram and seat the bullet... At the bottom of the down stroke from that operation the crimp die is indexed
over the round , the up stroke crimps it... At the bottom of the down stroke of that operation Station 1 has been indexed to where the whole process can start again after the round has been removed...

[mikld]

I have an issue with folks that choose a powder that will spill over if double charged, rather than establish safe reloading techniques. I think that's just a cop out for not learning good, safe reloading practices from the get-go.

I have an issue with you. You are saying I practice unsafe loading techniques because I practice one technique you disagree with. You do not know me well enough to make that statement. It is wrong. My safe reloading practices are as detailed and effective as yours are. I too know how to look into a case and do it.

I make mistakes and some of them are not worth the risk to me. So I do whatever I can to eliminate them and not rely on safety procedures alone. As I stated I do not judge others as unsafe because they do differently.

Whoa, lighten up Bob! I don't think its necessary to get personal. My "issue" (for want of a better term) is that it's easy to get sloppy with using "idiot proof" methods ('cause really there ain't no such thing). I said what I said. Just read the black letters/words. I don't remember saying "CBob is unsafe". I don't remember any attack on anyone, regardless of my vs their reloading habits..

I'll say it again, I think it's 100 times better to learn safe reloading methods from the beginning and make them habit than relying on "fail safe" components. If one is unable to reload with confidence using a powder charge of less than half case capacity (ergo; a double charge overflows the case), perhaps he should not load at all. I'm not talking about being "cavalier" about throwing powder charges, but developing safe habits. Personally, I don't care what you do to get reloaded ammo, but I usually think of a new reloader looking at a thread and seeing the only "safe" way to reload is with bulky powders. 'Taint so! I have been using Bullseye and W231 in my .38 Specials for nearly 30 years (and I used a scoop in the beginning ), and I do look in every case and I have never had a double charged round (I've made other mistakes, but not that one).

So, go slow, double check everything, and most of all, have fun...

[AJMD429]

I noticed several people stating they weighed every charge, but I am not convinced that using volume versus weight is any more likely to result in a catastrophic error. I can see a small percent variation being possible due to humidity and so on, but nothing that would render a load unsafe, unless it was already pretty much too close to excessive anyway.

I would assume that most if not all factory ammo is assembled using volume to measure powder rather than weight, and I'm betting that they side with safety whenever possible.

I just use weight initially to calibrate my volume measure and/or verify it.

[vancelw]

Progressive loader....what's the fun in that?

I weigh all my rifle charges just because I'm picky. If I'm going to the trouble of loading by hand I want all loads as close as possible. I like the results I get. And I usually seat the bullet as soon as I put the powder in the case.
I do use my Hornady powder measure when loading my plinking or target pistol rounds. They're not at maximum pressure so I get my dropper set where I want it and put powder in 50. If I'm going to load more I check the weight of a dropped charge again. These are the times I use the light to double-check for short or tall loads in a case before seating the bullet.

Using a method like 50+% loads does not make loading idiot proof. I work in emergency services and idiots are my job securlty...and there are plenty of them...business is good. It's just an extra safety check. BY mikld's reasoning, you would never need safety glasses, because if you do everything correctly, you will never have an accident.

I know that's not what you were trying to convey mikld....I love to read other peoples' methods. If they have a technique I can use to make my task easier or safer, I use it. If I already do something I like better, then I don't need their method.

As far as a beginner reading this thread and screwing up...well you can't fix stupid. I would hope a newbie would do like I did and read several reloading manuals before beginning. Then I read them again.....

[earlmck]

I was gone on vacation a couple of weeks and come back and you fellers are having several interesting conversations, of which this is certainly one. I can't contribute a single thing to this thread, though, because I realize I break every one of Bob's rules. Yep, every one, including the one about "don't let cost override safety": for example, this old Scotsman, when being given a nice batch of "mystery powder" will find a way to figure out approximately what it is and therefore find a use for it.

I will not recommend this practice to anybody else. I will not fault anybody else's techniques they use to stay safe.

My only unbroken "rule" is that I can't make myself load a bullet in a case until I have inspected the powder level. I've never thrown a double charge; years ago I did throw a zero charge. And one of my grandkids has done both and we picked it up during the mandatory "inspection" step. And I have had a powder measure do some kind a burp whereby it produced one of those 80/20 splits that Sixgun mentions. Inspection showed this up so it didn't result in anything other than I revised my loading procedure when using that powder measure (yes, I still use that measure because it is the only one I own that can throw those 2 to 3-grain charges) -- which I sometimes use for certain cartridges.

Stay safe and keep havin' fun!

[Canuck Bob]

I have an issue with folks that choose a powder that will spill over if double charged, rather than establish safe reloading techniques. I think that's just a cop out for not learning good, safe reloading practices from the get-go.

I have an issue with you. You are saying I practice unsafe loading techniques because I practice one technique you disagree with. You do not know me well enough to make that statement. It is wrong. My safe reloading practices are as detailed and effective as yours are. I too know how to look into a case and do it.

I make mistakes and some of them are not worth the risk to me. So I do whatever I can to eliminate them and not rely on safety procedures alone. As I stated I do not judge others as unsafe because they do differently.

Whoa, lighten up Bob! I don't think its necessary to get personal. My "issue" (for want of a better term) is that it's easy to get sloppy with using "idiot proof" methods ('cause really there ain't no such thing). I said what I said. Just read the black letters/words. I don't remember saying "CBob is unsafe". I don't remember any attack on anyone, regardless of my vs their reloading habits..

I'll say it again, I think it's 100 times better to learn safe reloading methods from the beginning and make them habit than relying on "fail safe" components. If one is unable to reload with confidence using a powder charge of less than half case capacity (ergo; a double charge overflows the case), perhaps he should not load at all. I'm not talking about being "cavalier" about throwing powder charges, but developing safe habits. Personally, I don't care what you do to get reloaded ammo, but I usually think of a new reloader looking at a thread and seeing the only "safe" way to reload is with bulky powders. 'Taint so! I have been using Bullseye and W231 in my .38 Specials for nearly 30 years (and I used a scoop in the beginning ), and I do look in every case and I have never had a double charged round (I've made other mistakes, but not that one).

So, go slow, double check everything, and most of all, have fun...

Thanks for clarifying, I like this place because we can disagree like men and still work things out. I have over reacted which would be no surprise to my wife! Six guns photo makes us both right because we take this whole subject seriously. This is is an edit to a response that I became ashamed of. Lets get back to saving fingers and Winchesters!!!

[Canuck Bob]

It seems volume loading is an amazing challenge. I often wonder at the work involved in loading thousands of rounds regularly. Certainly reloading and stingy charges of powder must be required for most shooters burning so much ammo just to afford these levels.

A big ammo run for me might be 3 cartridges 100 rounds each. That is what makes my rules even possible. And to reinforce it I don't mean to be rules for anyone else, just me and they are flexible as my hobby grows.

Sixgun was that your show? Wow, hope no one got hurt. I think I once double charged a 45 ACP in a Series 70 owned years ago. I noticed a dramatic difference in a shot, no damage but it was NOTICEABLE. I stopped shooting and pulled all the remaining rounds. No apparent problems. I use a system were cases are all done to stages. I deprime then clean. Resize then prime with a hand tool. Then place those ready cases upside down on a little wood and nail jig. They are charged with weighed charges and a bullet is seated. There is a visual inspection at every step. I can only assume I did something wrong. Something not considered until this thread and the original is distraction mid session. I changed my powder to this new process and my groups shrank!!! Now I consciously verify every loaded case and start over if interrupted I dump loaded case and reweigh when back (I'm on 24/7 call for my company for emergency response and clients), smartened up on bench order and powder storage and handling, and took some steps to standardize.

Weighing each load is getting old these days. It is time to reconsider but I like and stocked H4895, IMR4198, and SR4759. Real clunky powder for measures.

Excuse my ignorance but can a progressive drop ammo like a factory machine? I mean can it be automated at home to drop ammo while a guy is not on the handle.

[Sixgun]

I load 99% of all of my ammo.........6-10k a year......on 2 progressives, large rifle cartridges on an RCBS Pro 2000 and my pistol sized ammo on an RCBS Piggyback. I will not let fear run my life. You have to use common sense, and that means if the cartridge in question is a big one, like the 45-90, and I'm using 5744, well, that means I weigh every loaded round after the gig is over. As I'm particular on using one kind of brass and my cast bullets are very uniform, I have a + or - of 5 grains for my quality control.

I only do the above for big cartridges using 5744 in rifles that are worth a couple of months pay.

I volumn load everything, after taking an average of 10 throws from the measure. I use a powder baffle and keep the hopper above half full.

Yes, even my competition ammo for the old 1885's and 1886's get loaded on progressives with cast bullets from multiple cavity moulds and as I have the mindset that nobody remembers the second place winner, I'm remembered.

Yes, the guy who uses single cavity moulds, hand weighs his powder and indexes his brass and cast bullets will beat me in a group contest at 200 yards, but.....hey, I don't do that mind boring moron stuff, I shoot at steel animals. So....instead of getting a 3" group at 200 meters, I get a 4" group.

After I write this, I'm firing up the RCBS Pro-2000 with 45-90 dies and getting my ammo ready for elk huntin, along with 44 Spl's in a single action Colt NF that will be accompanying me in Colorado.

While loading ammo, stay sober, turn off the radio, shut off the phone, don't day dream, use common sense and FOCUS on the job at hand.

I may be a real AH at times and like to joke, but I take my shootin' and loadin' serious. ----6

[6pt-sika]

I would say 95% of the reloading for my rifles is working up a load that type of thing . I don't shoot any form of rifle competition anylonger so there's no need for me to load vast amounts of rifle ammo at once for a single rifle .

The other 5% of my rifle ammo is generally hunting stuff .

When I load my hunting stuff I rarely load more then 12-15 rounds of a particular load , generally I have several different bullets loaded for each lever rifle . For the Ruger #1's and bolt guns I typically have one load but still only load a dozen or so .


I load each round individually and while I powder dump 90-95% of the charge weight I always weigh them and finish off trickling the last 5-10% in the case . Since I load said loads in such small amounts weighing each charge is no big deal or time waster . For my rifle loads and what few handgun loads I do anymore I use my same old Ponsness Warren "Metallic II" I've been using for the last 25 years . I do however use a rather large CH4D press that looks kinda like a RockChucker for the 505 Gibbs .

Shotguns are a different bird at the moment I am using MEC 600JR's for the 10 , 12 , 16 , 20 and 410 . At some point I may add a MEC 9000G for the 20 as I seem to be shooting that the most lately . Personally I would like to get all Ponsness Warren 800's for the 12 , 16 , 20 , 28 and 410 but that's kinda cost prohibitive . And of course still use the 600 JR for all the short 10 gauge loads and 600JR's for the 12 and 16 gauge buckshot and slug loads .

[6pt-sika]

I may be a real AH at times and like to joke. ----6

Dude with a comment like that whats left for me to criticize

[JB]

All loads are 55% case capacity minimum. If I double charge the case must overflow. This one is never broken.

I prefer loads that pretty much fill up the cases myself. That's one thing that always worried me about target loads in 45 acp. 5 grains of Bullseye just disappears in a 45acp case. It would be so easy to double or even triple charge one without noticing.

Years ago a friend and I were shooting a Colt Detective special of his. He fired a couple rounds of his "light target loads" and complained how bad the recoil was. We went back to his garage and found his "3.5 grains" of Bullseye was actually "8 grains"! He'd reloaded for years, but with one mental lapse he moved the scale from "3", five more grains for "3.5". Luckily nothing was hurt but his pride.