Question for 'AR Guys' - "pistol vs. rifle"

[AJMD429]

I just got my son an AR lower to build out, but he couldn't pick it up and do the 4473, because he's under 21, and as a bare lower I guess it (like an Encore or Contender receiver) can be considered either a 'rifle' or 'handgun', so must be purchased by an over-21 individual. It can, however (according to the FFL) be transferred as a parental gift to a child, and can be possessed and carried if configured as a rifle, per the 'rifle' regulations, and if configured as a 'handgun', could be carried as per any CCW regulations that apply.

I think HIS plans are to set it up as a rifle, and even as a 'handgun' it wouldn't be what either of us would consider a 'CCW' gun, so my question applies to the OTHER lower I got for me...

If one purchases a lower and builds it out as a handgun, what exactly makes it a 'handgun'...???

I assume a short barrel mandates that it be a 'handgun', and not putting a 'rifle' stock on it would be obvious. However, does the Buffer Tube constitute a 'stock', or just part of the receiver.

I gather that these new-fangled "wrist-braces" that conveniently slip over the buffer-tube are a work-around for that for those who don't want to do SBR paperwork, and as I've posted on another thread, I have to wonder how long THAT will last.

Nonetheless, although I'd just bought the lower for myself as a 'spare' or for sale/trade later on, this got me thinking about building it as a handgun, but I don't want to break any rules.

So.....if I don't ever put a stock on the buffer tube, and put a short barrel on the gun, is that legitimate...? Do you have to weld up the threads on the buffer tube, or use some special 'handgun' buffer tube...?

Just wondering.

[Streetstar]

Use a handgun buffer tube ---- they're 50 bucks or so

After that, the correct answer would be to find the cheapest deal on lower receivers you can and then allocate the rest as you see fit

I want to try the forearm cuff --- but overall have a poor perception of AR pistols for practical use --- i built a pretty trick one, but ultimately-- i felt it was like trying to turn a pickup truck into a sports car--- plenty of power and noise, but also awkward heavy and cumbersome.

[Malamute]

There are some legal ramifications related to how it is listed on the 4473, whether as a rifle, a pistol or "other" I believe. I'm tired and may get this crossed up, but I believe a rifle cant become a pistol, but a pistol could become a rifle, but not sure if it can be made back again. An "other" receiver can be used either way, not sure about if it can be changed back and forth. If the sons receiver was booked as a rifle, it should be legal for him to buy it, just as if it were a completed gun, but if sold/booked out as one, it isn't legal to build a pistol out of it. I don't know if its exactly like a TC frame in the way it may seem.

The BATF seemed to be pretty specific about the Sig brace. The actual letter was posted regarding it, I'll find it and post it, or a link to it.

In general, I think AR pistols are much less practical than a carbine, however, they have a niche. In some states, it isn't legal to have a loaded rifle in a vehicle, but loaded handguns are legal, or with a concealed carry permit can be. In some places, an "assault rifle" isn't legal, but a basically similar pistol is. Some like the short barreled rifles, and are willing to do the paperwork required to have one, though some states don't allow them, so travel with them isn't legal. The pistols, with the not quite a shoulder thingy, are legal in some of those places.

An AR pistol isn't anywhere near a replacement for a carbine or rifle, but a substitute for certain reasons and places. I wouldn't choose one over a carbine, just as a supplement for certain narrow reasons/places/times.

[Panzercat]

There are some legal ramifications related to how it is listed on the 4473, whether as a rifle, a pistol or "other" I believe. I'm tired and may get this crossed up, but I believe a rifle cant become a pistol, but a pistol could become a rifle, but not sure if it can be made back again.

EDITED. This is correct. Pistol-rifle-pistol.

[7.62 Precision]

There was a big confusion about pistol lowers a couple years back, and the ATFE progressively change how they ruled on the issue.

First, the issue with a receiver is that it is not a rifle or a pistol, it is a receiver. Fo a long time, the ATFE considered a rifle receiver to be a rifle. Then a few years back they decided that since the receiver itself is not a "long gun," and the regulation specifically says, "long gun," then it could not be transferred by a dealer to anyone under the age of 21. It can, of course, be given as a gift by an individual to someone over 18 as long as all other laws are met.

Originally, the ATFE was indicating that to be built as a pistol, the receiver must be listed as a pistol receiver by the manufacturer, so you had to purchase a designated pistol lower.

The ATFE went back and fort on this issue, and when I was last selling lowers to be built as pistols, I was ordering a lower for the customer and logging it into the book as a stripped pistol lower, and designating it that way on the Form 4473.

I believe the interpretation may have relaxed a bit since then, but I would check the current position of the ATFE. They have current updates and rulings on their website, which are very important to keep up with, as the regulations stay the same until they are amended, but the way they are enforced is at the whim of the ATFE.

From what I understood the last time I looked at the issue, once a lower is built as a pistol, it is a pistol and will remain so. While it makes sense that you could add a long barrel and a stock legally, just like you can add a 16" barrel and stock legally to any other pistol, the answer I got from the inspectors here was that they were not sure how they were enforcing that, and there was not a publication that was clear on it at that time. I will have too look again.

However, the wording is pretty clear about a weapon made from a rifle, and once a lower is assembled as a rifle, it is a rifle, and to assemble a pistol on that receiver would constitute a weapon built from a rifle in the eyes of the ATFE, with some very rare exceptions for some specific firearms.

Again, I have not checked on this recently and would suggest that you do some research before taking my word for it, as this stuff changes. I will look into it as well, since I need to build a pistol AR for a marketing project for someone.

[cjensen]

THIS IS THE WAY IT IS.
1. It should be recorded at the time of purchase as an "other"....
2. If you build it as a pistol, you can change it to a rifle and back again. Think Thompson contender.
3. If you first build it as a rifle it can NEVER be converted to a pistol....
THIS IS THE WAY IT IS.
I don't know how they could tell if it was a chicken or an egg first. But we are dealing with the Government.

You do not HAVE to build it with a pistol buffer tube as the BATF has ruled a buffer tube is a buffer tube , not a stock, but using a collabsable stock buffer tube begs for a closer look and get sticky if you have a carbine butt stock around. You would be right, but might draw undue attention.
Here what I would and did do;
Buy a lower (other). Build a pistol. Slide a sig brace on it and have a ball. Throw it in the car. It's a handgun and in Wisconsin I can have a loaded handgun in the car uncased. Currently I have a 223 and 9mm pistol.
I am building a 300 Blackout upper as I write. Parts ordered from Surplus Ammo. Buy a Blachole wepondry barrel and get a free SAA upper. Add a gas block, gas tube, bolt carrier group, flash arrestor, forward assist and dust guard. If you need the lower parts kit, buffer, spring and tube I think they are all in stock. There is a buffer tube made for the sig brace that is a bit long, but I like the short stock Opps, I mean brace.
And NEVER EVER put a VERTICAL grip on your pistol upper.....
The mag pul hand stop is fine however.

[Streetstar]

[
And NEVER EVER put a VERTICAL grip on your pistol upper.....
The mag pul hand stop is fine however.

This also would be dependent on the OAL of your pistol though --- if its over 26.5" (as it likely would be if you were using a 11.5 or 12.5" barrel ) -- then you can use a VFG (vertical grip) as a "pistol" that long is no longer deemed concealable ------ there are lots of cute little ins and outs -- i used to keep a xerox copy of the BATF
s guidelines on such matters under the bottom foam in my gun case for "just in case" times if somebody with a badge ever truly got nosy (nobody ever did --- to include some of our local constables who wanted to shoot a mag through it to check it out )

--- but the OAL has to be to the end of the barrel threads, not the end of the flash hider, unless its welded

[Panzercat]

Yeah he's right. Killed that other post to prevent confusion.