Two problems with 38-40 resolved!

[rbertalotto]

Yesterday at the Ledyard CT CAS shoot I had issues with the first two stages. In my 1866 in 38-40, the bullets were being pushed into the case and jamming the gun. This was all new brass that I had recently loaded.

The second issue was once fired brass being tight in the chambers of my Uberti revolvers in 38-40. Sometimes they would not seat all the way in and drag on the recoil shield. New , unfired brass worked perfectly.

Last night I sat down and did some pondering.

Seems this last load of Starline brass is just a smidge shorter than the other brass I've been using. This caused the RCBS Cowboy seating / crimp die to not give the mouth of the case a good crimp on the bullet. I put the die in the lathe and with a carbide cutter I removed .050" from the bottom of the die...PERFECTO! Now the case goes deeper into the die and forms an excellent crimp.

To figure out what was happening with the once fired brass, I smoked a few cases and inserted them into the chamber of the revolver and I could see that the shoulder of the once fired cases was too far forward. The die was hitting the shell plate so I couldn't push the shoulder back any further.
Back to the lathe and I cut .050" off the bottom of the sizing die. I adjusted it to move the shoulder pack just a few thou and now the cases fit perfectly.

The 38-40 has been quite a row to hoe.....I have two revolvers and 6 rifles in this caliber and all the chambers are slightly different. Thank God it head-spaces on the rim and I can size the cases once and they will fit all my firearms.

I love the 38-40 for CAS because at the pressure we shoot, the 45LC and other cartridges the bras in the neck is to thick and the cases can't seal the chamber well. With the 38-40 (and the 44-40), being black powder cases, they have extremely thin necks and seal the chamber very tight. My guns are clean as can be after a match. In fact, I rarely clean my guns during the season. I might swab the bore here and there. But there is no need to disassemble and clean like I used to do with 45LC.

Hope this helps someone that might be having the same issues.

[hayabusa]

rbertalotto, you never have a dull post. Always look forward to your posts.

You figure out the problem and take care of it without procrastination.

hayabusa

[AJMD429]

One reason I like the Lee 'Factory Crimp' Dies is that they are NOT dependent on case-length to any significant degree. One caveat - for 'pistol' cartridges, you need to specify ('custom order') a "Rifle Type" Factory Crimp Die, because they are made entirely differently.

I ordered 'Rifle' FCD's for 44 Mag, 45 Colt, and 357 Mag for that reason. It appears their 38-40 die IS a "rifle" style one..but you may want to double-check. It's $15.98 from LeePrecision.com, and $13.29 from MidwayUSA.com. If it turns out their 'normal' 38-40 is a 'pistol' style, and you want one in 'rifle' style, I think it's around $25 for the 'custom' option.

http://leeprecision.com/factory-crimp-die-38-40.html

[rbertalotto]

Thanks Hayabusa....I try to keep it interesting!

I have a 38-40 Factory Crimp die. It does not crimp deep enough on that extremely thin brass. And it too needs to be shortened as it is crimping a bit too high. The best crimp I've found for 38-40 is the RCBS Cowboy Dies.

I didn't know about this Rifle / Pistol FCD....need to research this a bit more.....Thanks

[AJMD429]

Thanks Hayabusa....I try to keep it interesting!

I have a 38-40 Factory Crimp die. It does not crimp deep enough on that extremely thin brass. And it too needs to be shortened as it is crimping a bit too high. The best crimp I've found for 38-40 is the RCBS Cowboy Dies.

I didn't know about this Rifle / Pistol FCD....need to research this a bit more.....Thanks

I do know some folks love the 32-20 FCD (a 'rifle' type), and that brass is usually 'thin', but I've only reloaded a few hundred rounds, so can't comment authoritatively, but so far so good.

Here's the 'parts list' for a 45 Colt - 'pistol' type - die - http://leeprecision.com/parts/reloading ... colt-parts

And the 'parts list' for a 32-20 - 'rifle type' - die - http://leeprecision.com/parts/reloading ... 2-20-parts

As you can see, the difference is the latter die has a 'collet' whereas the former one a 'crimp sleeve', which is the essence of the difference.

Alas, your 38-40 die does appear to already be the 'rifle' type - http://leeprecision.com/parts/reloading ... 8-40-parts, as you can tell by the 'parts list'.

Super-short brass certainly could fail to reach the collet, such as the 'Hornady 444 Leverevolution', which is something like 1/10th inch too short. If you aren't getting the results you want, though, you might give Lee a call; I understand their customer service is usually great.

Regardless, good luck - sounds like a fun project.

[EdinCT]

Wish I had known you were coming out. I belong to the LSC and would of stopped by to say hello.

[rbertalotto]

Edin, I'm there every month for the CAS Shoots. Stop by next month.

[BrentD]

Roy, what are you using for a load in your .38-40? I'm using 15.3 gr of 2400 with the RCBS 180 bullet cast 40:1 for NRA CLA in my old 94 Marlin. However, I might jump to a blackpowder load. I think the cartridge will be easy to load with black.

[rbertalotto]

For Cowboy Action, where I don't want or need lots of recoil, I load 5g Trail Boss under a 180g RCBS bullet.

For Black Powder I load FFg to under the bullet with very slight compression. I use a "Big Lube" bullet of 180g.

I use SPG lube on everything. The 38-40 and 44-40 are perfect with Black Powder.....

By the way, the 38-40 was introduced around 1863.........a .401 diameter 180g bullet at 800fps..........just about exactly 100 years later we have a NEW cartridge that propels a .401 bullet of 180g at 800fps.........the 40S&W!

Amazing!

Also, the 44-40 is a .429 diameter bullet. The 38-40 is .401 diameter. Why did Winchester go this route. There is nearly zero ballistic difference in the two......Strange....

[BrentD]

Thanks Roy. I need to go a bit faster to knock down silhouettes, but that gives me a good idea of where the low end might be for light loads. Even my load is pretty light though and not a lot of recoil - though not like yours.

I haven't seen how much black I can fit yet. But I'm guessing around 35 grs or so of Swiss 1.5 will do.

Brent

[w30wcf]

Roy,
Great idea on shortening the sizing die to make the neck longer to support the base of the bullet. I had done the same thing to my RCBS .44-40 die awhile back.

I did find, later, that my Lee FCD can actually press a crimp groove into a lead alloy bullet (see pic below - bullet pulled from a crimped cartridge). I wonder if your die would need to be modified to work better with the shorter brass(?).

Actually the forerunner of the .38-40, the .38 W.C.F. was introduced by Winchester in 1879. U.M.C. introduced the .38-40 several years later. Catalog velocity was in the 1,300 f.p.s. range (rifle). Smokeless loadings did not appear until 1895.

Today's .38-40 ammunition is a tamed down version of the original cartridge.



w30wcf

[BrentD]

I thought the .38 WCF and .38-40 were one in the same. What are the differences? Obviously, such modern cartridges as these are a bit out of my bailiwick - esp. the "pistol" cartridges.

[w30wcf]

BrentD,
When U.M.C. Introduced their .38-40 cartridge later in the 1880's it was a replication of Winchester's .38 W.C.F. except that the head stamp read .38-40. Marlin most likely also had something to do with it since they did not manufacture ammunition like Winchester so they needed to partner with an ammunition company and U.M.C. was the likely choice.

Early on the cartridge was designated .38-40 Marlin Safety.

There was a slight difference in the b.p. factory loadings after about 1892. U.M.C.'s .38-40 continued to be loaded with 40 grs. of b.p. while Winchester changed to a 38 gr. b.p. charge for their .38 W.C.F.

In 1946 Winchester adopted the more popular .38-40 moniker and discontinued using the .38 W.C.F. designation.

w30wcf

[BrentD]

Thanks for the explanation. That sounds pretty reasonable. The way I read your earlier post I thought you might have been suggesting that there were actually two distinctly different cartridges.

[Griff]

Roy,

I don't know if you're using a progressive to load your .38-40, but I've found the same with even my straight wall .45Colts due to thickness of the shell plate on the Dillon.

[rbertalotto]

I've tried two different progressive press is for the 38-40. A Lee 1000 and a newly aquired Lee Load Master. The Load Master is a project in the works as I can't get it to work consistently. I bought it because it has 5 stations and allowed FCD. But then I took the Lee 1000 completely apart, Modified the dies as above. And now it is working beautifully. The Lee 1000 units are excellent once you get them dialed in. (I have 6 of them!). I also have a Dillon 550 but I like the 1000 better.

[cshold]

Roy,
Great idea on shortening the sizing die to make the neck longer to support the base of the bullet. I had done the same thing to my RCBS .44-40 die awhile back.

I did find, later, that my Lee FCD can actually press a crimp groove into a lead alloy bullet (see pic below - bullet pulled from a crimped cartridge). I wonder if your die would need to be modified to work better with the shorter brass(?).

Actually the forerunner of the .38-40, the .38 W.C.F. was introduced by Winchester in 1879. U.M.C. introduced the .38-40 several years later. Catalog velocity was in the 1,300 f.p.s. range (rifle). Smokeless loadings did not appear until 1895.

Today's .38-40 ammunition is a tamed down version of the original cartridge.



w30wcf

As always, a wealth of information

[cshold]

BP
What would be the difference/outcome if 3F were used in place of 2F
in the 38-40 or 44-40 loading?

[BrentD]

Your bullet would go a few tens of feet per second faster. Give it a try.

[rbertalotto]

Great idea on shortening the sizing die to make the neck longer to support the base of the bullet.

Just so we understand, the sizing die was shortened to push the shoulder back a few thousands. The neck was not the issue.

The whole issue with the 38-40 and 44-40 not crimping properly is the extreme thin brass in the neck that doesn't allow for a sloppy crimp. And because the neck brass is so thin, there is near no neck tension from friction.

The plus is this thin brass expands VERY easily to seal the chamber at CAS pressures......but it doesn't hold the bullet in place very well unless your crimp is perfect.