What I am doing wrong?

[Ysabel Kid]

Okay, with such an open ended question, you guys could probably fill up pages of posts on what I'm doing wrong! Let me explain...

The kids were off school this week for Spring Break, so we took a short trip up to Ohio to visit my in-laws. While at my FIL's, as we always do, we went shooting on his land. Y2K wanted to shoot a blackpowder revolver. I am ashamed to admit it, but I have never had the chance to have him shoot one before - always other things he wanted to shoot, and I wanted to introduce him to this using a very specific gun. Well, he is now properly hooked, since I introduced him to cap & ball shooting with the pinnacle of the type - a reproduction of the 1860 Army Colt! Mine is actually a Belgium-made copy called a "Centennial 1960 New Model Army". It was my father's and the first blackpowder firearm I ever fired.

It was a great day. It had snowed the day before (will this winter ever end?), but was sunny and 46 degrees. It actually felt warmer - perfect shooting weather. I taught him how to properly load the revolver, and watched him do it from then on in to make sure he did it right. Here is a picture of him shooting, and a short video (first time posting a video so hopefully this works):





We did run into one problem though - the revolver chain-fired the next chamber several times. We were using 35 grains of Goex FFFg powder, a felt wad, a .44-caliber round ball, then actually Crisco grease (which, with the felt wad should have been overkill), capped with # 11 CCI caps. The double fire happened several times. I can't figure what we were doing wrong, and finally called it a day (for that gun) until I can figure it out. Still, it was a ton of fun, and again, he's hooked!

Any ideas?

[Blaine]

I'm at a loss, too....but, see if it's the same chamber each time.....Meh, it's a place to start looking.

[horsesoldier03]

Not sure what size ball your shooting, I shoot the .454 balls in my 1860 Army Pietta with a felt wad over the charge. You should be shaving a lead ring when you seat the ball. I have never experienced a chain fire and I don't use grease over the load, IMO it gets too messy. You might try the .457

[guido4198]

FWIW:
I'm posting something here I HEARD the BP revolver shooters saying at our range last Saturday. A I have yet to get into BP revolvers. A man there was shooting an 1851 Navy copy and had 2 cylinders fire at the same time on him. They were the intended cylinder, AND the one directly below it "6-o'clock" if you will. Drove the ball HARD into the frame as you might imagine, but they eventually got the thing apart.
He was not using anything over the end of the cylinder mouth. Everybody made the expected comments about grease over the cylinder, etc. Then one guy brought up a point he had been told about loose caps causing multiple discharges. He said you need a tight fitting cap to prevent them, not grease over the end of the cylinder.
I'd never heard that anywhere else, and thought I'd toss it out here in the "chain-fire" conversation for comment.

Take it for what it's worth, and what it cost ya.

[Gobblerforge]

Was the cap detonated on the unintended cylinder? I'm thinking if the cap was fired, then it could be as stated, that something is hitting the cap. If not, then the fire came through the front, around the ball. If the chambers are next to each other, inspect the chamber walls.
Gobbler

[M. M. Wright]

Yssy,
Very unusual. Are the caps tight or do you have to pinch them so they stay on? How tight are the balls in the cylinder? Check to see how big the flash holes are in your nipples. You may want to invest in a set of Treso nipples, if they make them in your thread size. You can check the pitch to see if they are the same as the Italian ones.
Any possibility of a crack between the chambers?
I started shooting C&B when I was 14. Lets see, 1953? Wonder how much black I've burned?

[jhrosier]

I thought that revolvers used #10 caps, not #11s.
A loose cap would allow chain fires.

Jack

[harry]

FWIW:
I'm posting something here I HEARD the BP revolver shooters saying at our range last Saturday. A I have yet to get into BP revolvers. A man there was shooting an 1851 Navy copy and had 2 cylinders fire at the same time on him. They were the intended cylinder, AND the one directly below it "6-o'clock" if you will. Drove the ball HARD into the frame as you might imagine, but they eventually got the thing apart.
He was not using anything over the end of the cylinder mouth. Everybody made the expected comments about grease over the cylinder, etc. Then one guy brought up a point he had been told about loose caps causing multiple discharges. He said you need a tight fitting cap to prevent them, not grease over the end of the cylinder.
I'd never heard that anywhere else, and thought I'd toss it out here in the "chain-fire" conversation for comment.

Take it for what it's worth, and what it cost ya.

Did you mean "chamber" ?

[Centennial]

The usual cause to a chain fire is the fire/spark came from the front. At 46* F Crisco should of stayed put & sealed it, plus you had the felt wad. But if the ball didn't fit tight and shave lead when pressed in then the charge could of shifted in recoil and pushed some Crisco out. Most likely the fire/spark came from the front, back into adjacent chambers.

[Sixgun]

Kid,
"The Kid" is growing taller each time we see him.

You ask, "what am I doing wrong?" Looks to me your having a good time, so what could be "wrong" with that? ----6

[Ysabel Kid]

I'm pretty sure the balls are .454". Honestly, I cast them over 20 years ago, so I can't remember 100%. In any case, they did shave a small ring upon seating, which is the way I like it!

The chamber that went off was the one immediately to the left of the intended one when looking at the cylinder from the rear. In other words, the "lucky" one as it has little blocking it (still don't want it happening).

I suspected it may be a hole in the chamber wall until Y2K had two chain-fires in one cylinder of shooting.

Now I'm thinking it is the cap. The # 11 is loose. If you tilt the revolver up while cocking it the cap will fall off.

I can't wait now to see if this is it. Another excuse to take it out soon!

Thanks fellas,

YK

[Centennial]

Maybe you got some loose nipples or worn out too.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I'm pretty sure the balls are .454". Honestly, I cast them over 20 years ago, so I can't remember 100%. In any case, they did shave a small ring upon seating, which is the way I like it!

The chamber that went off was the one immediately to the left of the intended one when looking at the cylinder from the rear. In other words, the "lucky" one as it has little blocking it (still don't want it happening).

I suspected it may be a hole in the chamber wall until Y2K had two chain-fires in one cylinder of shooting.

Now I'm thinking it is the cap. The # 11 is loose. If you tilt the revolver up while cocking it the cap will fall off.

I can't wait now to see if this is it. Another excuse to take it out soon!

Thanks fellas,

YK

Yssy,
Very unusual. Are the caps tight or do you have to pinch them so they stay on? How tight are the balls in the cylinder? Check to see how big the flash holes are in your nipples. You may want to invest in a set of Treso nipples, if they make them in your thread size. You can check the pitch to see if they are the same as the Italian ones.
Any possibility of a crack between the chambers?
I started shooting C&B when I was 14. Lets see, 1953? Wonder how much black I've burned?

There's it is. I've competed with CB's many time shooting the Frontiersman class for CAS. The nipples that come on these guns tend to wash out the flash holes over time. Once that happens the caps don't stay on very well no matter which ones you use and you will get a chain fire in through the nipples. I actually saw a time delayed video that showed it happen. You could see the flash all around the gun and it trailed back to the un-capped nipple.
The Treso's have smaller flash holes that also restrict back pressure. This helps the hammer hold the spent caps.
BTW, if the flash hole is washed out the back pressure can push the hammer back enough to rotate the cylinder and set off the next charge.

These are my match guns.

[Nath]

Quite pleased with myself....I thought about the caps earlier but not having any experience with these revolvers kept quiet.......for once!

Nice video YK and man your son has grown

Best wishes.

N.

[AJMD429]

Maybe you got some loose nipples or worn out too.

I've had a couple patients with that problem. . .

[Old Ironsights]

+1 to Nate.

If you are shaving & greasing your balls (shut up, you dirty minded reprobates...) it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for fire to get to the powder.

But, as anyone who has messed with timing a flinter knows, it is TOTALLY possible for ignition to occur well before the actual flame front hits the main charge... which is what is happening when super-heated gasses pass between the Cap & nipple, then reflect off of, or ignite, the priming compound in the cap and fly down the nipple to detonate the BP below.

ANY Caplock Cylinder can chain if there is sufficient heat, flame front, &/or poorly sealed caps on the backside.

(I challenge anyone to show me where a caplock designed like the NAA .22 Mini - where the cap is totally surrounded by raw metal - can be made to chain when the bulled is shaved and the cylinder is greased. Aint. Gonna. Happen.)

[Griff]

Yep, if you've greased the front of the chambers... and, it's stayed in place... the loose cap is probably the most likely culprit. Use #10 Remingtons.

Although... I've shot C&B in CAS for quite a number of years... like 28... less frequently recently, but... I've never experienced a chain-fire thru a nipple. Until just a couple of years ago, I only used the factory nipples.

I have habitually loaded all six chambers, but only capped five and in 28 years I've not had a single chain-fire, but it could happen... I believe that. (Not very much tho')!

However, if you're not cutting a ring of lead from the ball when you press it in the chamber... you're not sealing the chamber well-enough. Grease has a tendency to melt after a few shots, I don't believe in relying on it.

[perry owens]

Here in the UK all us CAS shooters use percussion guns because that's all our government allows us. I've seen many chain fires and become convinced that in most cases the chain fire comes from the caps. One of the worse guns for chain firing is the cap and ball version of the Uberti Cattleman. We had one that chain fired at least 3 cylinders every loading. The solution - fit adapter nipples to take shotgun primers and the problem goes away for good.

Perry Owens

[KiwiKev]

I have just been looking at a picture of the 1858's chamber. Could the safety notches allow for the spark on a loose cap to travel across to another cap. If so a tight fitting cap on a new nipple may be the way to go.

[765x53]

Most chain fires are caused by sparks or debris entering lose caps.

That's why, any gun writer who tells you "if your caps are too loose just pinch them" can be dismissed as an armchair blow-hard.

[Ysabel Kid]

I cleaned the revolver as I always do immediately after shooting it. Hot soapy water in my FIL's back cellar. Three of the six nipples didn't want to budge. I don't remember this being the case when I last shot it. Since we left later that day, I set it aside to do a thorough cleaning today. Started by disassembling the gun then dropped all the parts into a sonic cleaner. Same three nipples still won't budge. I tried break free to no avail.

Any ideas?

I did take one that came out easily and checked it out - 1/4x28F threads. If I can get the three stubborn ones out, who is the best source for Treso replacements? Do any of you like a specific nipple wrench that really gets the job done?

[Old No7]

Then one guy brought up a point he had been told about loose caps causing multiple discharges. He said you need a tight fitting cap to prevent them, not grease over the end of the cylinder.

Yup, that's what I would have said too. I've seen more posts on muzzleloading websites about this happening over the last year, than over the prior 15.

Same three nipples still won't budge. I tried break free to no avail. Any ideas?

Jay, I'd suggest you soak it liberally for 2-3 days with Kroil, PB Blaster, or WD40 (if you don't have the others). One time, after doing the above with Kroil, I put the cylinder in the oven for 1 hour (300 degrees) and the heat helped the Kroil penetrate the threads. Worked like a charm! If I recall, one of the techs at Brownell's told me about adding the heat.

Good luck with that!

Oh, you should put some anti-sieze on those nipples the next time (like they sell for choke tubes or inline breech plugs), and that will help avoid the dreaded stuck nipple.

Tight groups,

Old No7

[Griff]

Same three nipples still won't budge. I tried break free to no avail. Any ideas?

Jay, I'd suggest you soak it liberally for 2-3 days with Kroil, PB Blaster, or WD40 (if you don't have the others). One time, after doing the above with Kroil, I put the cylinder in the oven for 1 hour (300 degrees) and the heat helped the Kroil penetrate the threads. Worked like a charm! If I recall, one of the techs at Brownell's told me about adding the heat.

Good luck with that!

Oh, you should put some anti-sieze on those nipples the next time (like they sell for choke tubes or inline breech plugs), and that will help avoid the dreaded stuck nipple.

Tight groups,

Old No7

+1. And if that still doesn't work... cut a socket to fit the nipple and use an impact driver.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Same three nipples still won't budge. I tried break free to no avail. Any ideas?

Jay, I'd suggest you soak it liberally for 2-3 days with Kroil, PB Blaster, or WD40 (if you don't have the others). One time, after doing the above with Kroil, I put the cylinder in the oven for 1 hour (300 degrees) and the heat helped the Kroil penetrate the threads. Worked like a charm! If I recall, one of the techs at Brownell's told me about adding the heat.

Good luck with that!

Oh, you should put some anti-sieze on those nipples the next time (like they sell for choke tubes or inline breech plugs), and that will help avoid the dreaded stuck nipple.

Tight groups,

Old No7

+1. And if that still doesn't work... cut a socket to fit the nipple and use an impact driver.

You mean like that?



Hard to tell but the cheap socket has a notch cut across it to fit the nipple.

[Nath]

Jay. You need some olive oil and beeswax melted together and put on the threads of those nipples. Or some ptfe tape!
N.

[Hobie]

Pinch the #11 caps before pushing them onto the nipples.

Knock on wood, but in 35+ years of shooting cap and ball revolvers I've never had a gun fire an adjacent or other chamber.

[ndcowboy]

So nobody is hurt when these chain fire? I thought it was pretty dangerous.

[Gobblerforge]

So nobody is hurt when these chain fire? I thought it was pretty dangerous.

Soft lead and low velocity. Just makes the shorts brown.

[Ysabel Kid]

So nobody is hurt when these chain fire? I thought it was pretty dangerous.

Soft lead and low velocity. Just makes the shorts brown.

I remember years ago having a chain fire and yes, it almost caused an embarassing "event" in my shorts. Weird thing is that we had at least 1 chainfire in every clylinder full. Only once did the ball strike the wedge (everything else was the chamber immediately to the left of the one being fired if you look at them from the rear). I should have stopped earlier for safety reasons, but we were having too much fun. When we started getting two chain fires per cylinder, I finally called it a day.

I had a can of WD-40 at home so the cylinder is sitting in it right now. Will try to get those three stubborn nipples to budge in a few days.

[Old Ironsights]

Here in the UK all us CAS shooters use percussion guns because that's all our government allows us. I've seen many chain fires and become convinced that in most cases the chain fire comes from the caps. One of the worse guns for chain firing is the cap and ball version of the Uberti Cattleman. We had one that chain fired at least 3 cylinders every loading. The solution - fit adapter nipples to take shotgun primers and the problem goes away for good.

Perry Owens

I'd like to see that conversion...

Link?

[perry owens]

Here in the UK all us CAS shooters use percussion guns because that's all our government allows us. I've seen many chain fires and become convinced that in most cases the chain fire comes from the caps. One of the worse guns for chain firing is the cap and ball version of the Uberti Cattleman. We had one that chain fired at least 3 cylinders every loading. The solution - fit adapter nipples to take shotgun primers and the problem goes away for good.

Perry Owens

I'd like to see that conversion...

Link?

Her's the link http://aandagunsmiths.co.uk/pistols/

A and A Gunsmiths is run by a guy called Alan Vickers, the secretary of the British Western Shooting Society.
The blast from the shotgun primer is so powerful it will push the ball out even if you forget the powder. I don't have the conversion on my Old Army's because they are totally reliable with Remington 11 caps so if it ain't broke I don't fix it, but many CAS shooters I know have them on Cattlemen and Remington clones.

Perry Owens

[Old Ironsights]

Thanks Perry. Pretty much what I thought on the cylinder side, but how is he getting a flat hammer to dimple a shotgun primer?

[perry owens]

Thanks Perry. Pretty much what I thought on the cylinder side, but how is he getting a flat hammer to dimple a shotgun primer?

I put that question to him and people I know who use them. Apparently the standard hammers are narrow enough and hit hard enough to fire shotgun primers reliably. Certainly no one I know complains about misfires with them.

Perry Owens

[Old Ironsights]

Thanks Perry. Pretty much what I thought on the cylinder side, but how is he getting a flat hammer to dimple a shotgun primer?

I put that question to him and people I know who use them. Apparently the standard hammers are narrow enough and hit hard enough to fire shotgun primers reliably. Certainly no one I know complains about misfires with them.

Perry Owens

Very cool. I'm all about options, and the option to use shotgun primers as well as Caps soumds like a Win-Win.

Time to put in an inquiry...

[perry owens]

Since our government banned metallic cartridge pistols we UK shooters have had to exercise our ingenuity to keep pistol shooting alive. There are a number of aftermarket cylinders available to convert black powder cap and ball pistols to shoot with nitro powder - very useful for CAS. Also from the CAS sector came improved ignition via shotgun and pistol primer adapters.
Here's a link to a producer of shotgun primer adapters and also gate-loaded shotgun primer, nitro powder revolvers
http://www.anvilconversions.co.uk/index ... age600.htm
One of their revolvers is reviewed here http://www.gunmart.net/gun_review/anvil ... 8_revolver

Perry Owens