Monster slug progress

[TedH]

Picked up some 12 ga. brass hulls from Midway. They are quite thin walled, and the inside diameter is too large to securly hold the .732" full bore slugs for my black powder load. I made a sizing die to neck it down to the proper diameter just the depth of the slug. This is what I ended up with, pictured next to a 380 ACP for comparison. Not sure how long this brass is going to last getting worked back and forth that much. Also concerned about how well the bullet will stay centered and not enter the rifling not perfectly straight. Now to decide how much black powder to start off with, I have fiber wads to take up the extra space.

[Mescalero]

I am going to make the assumption the brass will blow out to the size of the unformed portion each time you shoot it, so I guess that you will just have to proceed to the point where it does not work anymore.
Maybe someone who is familiar with annealing brass can chime in and offer a solution.

[vancelw]

So....how did you make a die?
Are your fiber wads the diameter of the large part of the case or the necked down part of the case?
Are you going to shoot these through a rifled barrel?

Can I watch?

[TedH]

So....how did you make a die?
Are your fiber wads the diameter of the large part of the case or the necked down part of the case?
Are you going to shoot these through a rifled barrel?

Can I watch?

I used an existing tool (bearing installer) that just happened to have the perfect diameter hole in the center, and just chamfered one end to allow the brass to ease in straight and easy. Extraction from the "die" is performed with another tool, a 7/16 socket and 3" extension. But hey, it works.

The wads are a decent fit in the unsized portion, but are somewhat tapered, so I'm hoping they will still pass through the sized portion. I have some cardboard wads cut out also that I place on top of the powder to hold it in place, then seat the fiber wad, then another cardboard wad under the bullet.

Yep, rifled barrel H&R.

Not only can you watch Vance, I'll give you the honor of making the first three shot group!

Mescalero, I believe you are right. It's going to be quite a workout for the brass after a couple loadings. But after a few shots, I may not want to shoot anymore anyway.

[vancelw]

So....how did you make a die?
Are your fiber wads the diameter of the large part of the case or the necked down part of the case?
Are you going to shoot these through a rifled barrel?

Can I watch?

Not only can you watch Vance, I'll give you the honor of making the first three shot group!

I'm in Life is too short to live it on the couch I might look funny with me safety goggles, face shield, and flak jacket on.....

[Grizz]

would a paper patch, or cardboard patch, maybe, work in a straight case?

will you please video Vance's range work?

Grizz

[TedH]

I don't think so Grizz, because the bullets are a fit to the bore. I also have some loaded in regular plastic hulls with Blue Dot powder. I'm not sure Vance will make the 8 hour drive just to be subjected to this abuse.

[Mescalero]

An old trick I used when I used to have to shoot .458 for 6 hours, put a sandbag between your shoulder and the buttplate.
The sand dissapates a lot of the force.

[Blaine]

An old trick I used when I used to have to shoot .458 for 6 hours, put a sandbag between your shoulder and the buttplate.
The sand dissapates a lot of the force.

This explains a lot.....

[TedH]

An old trick I used when I used to have to shoot .458 for 6 hours, put a sandbag between your shoulder and the buttplate.
The sand dissapates a lot of the force.

I've done that. I also use an old set of ankle weights, and one of the Past Recoil Shield pads. A combination of those, and a Lead Sled makes for an easy time at the bench.

[Old Ironsights]

FWIW Ted, I've had the same issue/problem with trying to use .410 brass hulls... Though my thought at this juncture is to just bore out the barrel to .429 so I can use .444 brass/bullets... Shouldn't affect .410 shot enough to worry about...

[Mescalero]

Be nice, Blaine

[BrentD]

Ted,

I haven't been following your threads on this so I don't know exactly what you are trying to do. But if that bullet is less than groove diameter, then you very certainly could use paper to get back some of the diameter that you need. But only some. You have a lot more that you need to fill up.

If your bullet is at or close to groove diameter and it is a case of your cartridge being too big rather than the bullet too small, then there is a simple solution - though slightly expensive.

But take a chamber casting and sent it the good folks at Rocky Mountain Cartridge. They can turn you a case that will fit exactly your chamber and your bullet. rockymountaincartridge.com there to help. I had a 10 bore shotgun that used their cases, they will last forever.

Brent.

[BrentD]

Ted,

I haven't been following your threads on this so I don't know exactly what you are trying to do. But if that bullet is less than groove diameter, then you very certainly could use paper to get back some of the diameter that you need. But only some. You have a lot more that you need to fill up.

If your bullet is at or close to groove diameter and it is a case of your cartridge being too big rather than the bullet too small, then there is a simple solution - though slightly expensive.

But take a chamber casting and sent it the good folks at Rocky Mountain Cartridge. They can turn you a case that will fit exactly your chamber and your bullet. rockymountaincartridge.com there to help. I had a 10 bore shotgun that used their cases, they will last forever.

Brent.

[TedH]

Ted,

I haven't been following your threads on this so I don't know exactly what you are trying to do. But if that bullet is less than groove diameter, then you very certainly could use paper to get back some of the diameter that you need. But only some. You have a lot more that you need to fill up.

If your bullet is at or close to groove diameter and it is a case of your cartridge being too big rather than the bullet too small, then there is a simple solution - though slightly expensive.

But take a chamber casting and sent it the good folks at Rocky Mountain Cartridge. They can turn you a case that will fit exactly your chamber and your bullet. rockymountaincartridge.com there to help. I had a 10 bore shotgun that used their cases, they will last forever.

Brent.

I'm just messin' about, seeing if I can get a big chunk of lead to fly fairly straight. These slugs are the correct size for the bore, so the paper idea is out. I have heard about those lathe turned cases, and that could be a possibility down the road. A handfull of those would be all I'd ever need.

[BrentD]

If that slug is groove diameter then the brass cases from RMC will fix you up properly. When I had mine made, I got to choose my preference in primer type (rifle, pistol, or shotgun) and even have my own custom headstamp made. They will never wear out and I sold them with the shotgun. You won't be able to crimp but setting the bullet on top of a full case of powder and a card wad is all you really need to do

[vancelw]

I don't think so Grizz, because the bullets are a fit to the bore. I also have some loaded in regular plastic hulls with Blue Dot powder. I'm not sure Vance will make the 8 hour drive just to be subjected to this abuse.

To see a train wreck???? or to be IN the train wreck?? Heck yeah.
Especially if it's motorcycle riding season (yes, I am a fair-weather rider)

When shooting from the bench I use one of those PAST recoil pads. They work wonders. I bought my Ruger M77 MK II all-weather .308 when they first came out in 1990. The trigger was so tough and the Zytel stock was so narrow that I quickly developed a flinch. Accuracy was less than mediocre. I had the trigger lightened and bought a PAST recoil shoulder pad....wow..what a difference!

A couple of months ago I was shooting my Rem 750 in .35 Whelen and after 2 shots I took the pad off. Very impressed with the low recoil.

I might be in for a surprise. I've never shot a shotgun from the bench

[vancelw]

An old trick I used when I used to have to shoot .458 for 6 hours, put a sandbag between your shoulder and the buttplate.
The sand dissapates a lot of the force.

This explains a lot.....

The incontinence?

[Blaine]

An old trick I used when I used to have to shoot .458 for 6 hours, put a sandbag between your shoulder and the buttplate.
The sand dissapates a lot of the force.

This explains a lot.....

The incontinence?

That's not all....

[Mescalero]

I don't have that

[Nath]

Hmmm I don't like that Ted! You may be better off just using plastic hulls with the black and throw them after the shot.

A 12g chamber is wide for paper and plastic hulls, a much thicker brass hull is needed if you want that slug poking out. But then you may get blow back issues!

If you have groove diameter with that slug consider it sitting in the case under a O/S card held in by nail varnish.

Oh and a folded newspaper or gun rag inside your jacket tames recoil at the range too!

N.

[BrentD]

Nathan, with the properly made thick brass cartridge he will not get blow back. At least I never did with my 10 bore shells. They were thick enough that I could have driven my truck over those shells and not hurt them. They are as thick as paper shells, at least.

Brent

[Nath]

Nathan, with the properly made thick brass cartridge he will not get blow back. At least I never did with my 10 bore shells. They were thick enough that I could have driven my truck over those shells and not hurt them. They are as thick as paper shells, at least.

Brent

Well you know better than me bro

Thanks.

N.

[TedH]

Still not sure about the brass hulls and black powder, just playing with some ideas here. I've got some of these slugs loaded in plastic hulls with smokeless, but as you can imagine, reliable data for such a thing doesn't exist. I've been reading a lot of stuff from Dixie Slugs. He claims that data for an equivalent weight of shot is a good starting load for full bore slugs, because a solid slug doesn't have the same bore friction that a shot column does. That seems azz backwards to me, but he's the one doing the pressure testing.

[BrentD]

What are you shooting this in? Is it rifled? What is the breech like?

Sorry if I missed this being posted elsewhere. I don't always read every post.

Brent

[Nath]

Still not sure about the brass hulls and black powder, just playing with some ideas here. I've got some of these slugs loaded in plastic hulls with smokeless, but as you can imagine, reliable data for such a thing doesn't exist. I've been reading a lot of stuff from Dixie Slugs. He claims that data for an equivalent weight of shot is a good starting load for full bore slugs, because a solid slug doesn't have the same bore friction that a shot column does. That seems azz backwards to me, but he's the one doing the pressure testing.

They will be fine as in nothing going to go wrong Ted, it is not like your forcing a 2" steel ball through a 1" hole now is it!

As soon as it is swaged down by the lands that's it! Gone!

N.

[hfcable]

that cartridge is a thing of beauty/ you have resurrected the old winchester 70/150 or whatever it was called.

[Catshooter]

Ted,

Nice.

I and my brother worked up a tri-ball load for his H&R Ultra in 20 gauge.

His bore is .626 and necking wouldn't work with three balls. We got a round ball mould that dropped 'em at .646 so we tried that knowing that the bore would size them down nicely. It does and he gets good accuracy with a bit of power too!

Was me trying to do what you're doing I'd paper patch 'em. The bore will size 'em and with very little pressure increase.


Cat

[vancelw]

Sorry if I missed this being posted elsewhere. I don't always read every post.

Brent

I've noticed that.....

[BrentD]

Sorry if I missed this being posted elsewhere. I don't always read every post.

Brent

I've noticed that.....

Are you trying to make some specific point or are you just digging for something?

[vancelw]

Sorry if I missed this being posted elsewhere. I don't always read every post.

Brent

I've noticed that.....

Are you trying to make some specific point or are you just digging for something?

Go back and read all the posts you have commented on....then maybe you'll understand. You tend to be on a tangent from others and then get defensive when others post after you.

[BrentD]

Really? Then you were actually just looking to pick a fight and you didn't feel my post above was warranted or helpful?

Is that right?

[TedH]

that cartridge is a thing of beauty/ you have resurrected the old winchester 70/150 or whatever it was called.

That's interesting, I'd never heard of that cartridge. According to this source, there was only one rifle ever made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.70-150_Winchester

[hfcable]

that cartridge is a thing of beauty/ you have resurrected the old winchester 70/150 or whatever it was called.

That's interesting, I'd never heard of that cartridge. According to this source, there was only one rifle ever made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.70-150_Winchester

thats all i know about it as well. but i suppose someone could take one of the new 1887 12 repros and make one .

also back in the 60s or 70s, there was a gunsmith in pennsylvania or ohio, taking high standard shotguns and making a rifled barrel and loading 12 ga shells with huge projectiles. i think the cases were shortened and some may have been machined from aluminum, but they actually fed these monster rounds through and worked.

of course i wanted one, but had no money to get one

[Mescalero]

Ted,
I went to google and input " annealing brass " and some good info came up, for your purposes I think the water tip over method would work ok.
Check it out.
mescalero

[Old Ironsights]

...
also back in the 60s or 70s, there was a gunsmith in pennsylvania or ohio, taking high standard shotguns and making a rifled barrel and loading 12 ga shells with huge projectiles. i think the cases were shortened and some may have been machined from aluminum, but they actually fed these monster rounds through and worked.

of course i wanted one, but had no money to get one

"An 8 bore double rifle could be built to weigh around 14lbs if fitted with 20" barrels, and that with a three ounce hardened lead bullet (1312grns) backed by 14 drams of powder (for around 1600fps) gave better penetration than a four ounce round ball from a four bore (at around 1900fps)." See more at: http://www.shakariconnection.com/giant- ... KJmz9.dpuf

Take a really good, DEEP look at the Dixieslugs site... there is some really cool stuff for the data miner...

[Nath]

Lol Old irons....what a 4oz ball won't penetrate I ain't toooo fussed over

N

[Old Ironsights]

I'm plenty happy with my 1oz RBs from my Howda... even if the barrels are only 6"...

[Grizz]

a man named Ed Hubel has made dozens of shotgun loads of mind-boggling proportions and worked up safe loadings for breaking just about anything.

there are hundreds of posts in various threads online, this is one starting point:

http://www.baitshopboyz.com/forum/forum ... 10178&PN=1

here's 25 pages at BTB:

http://www.shootersforum.com/shotguns-s ... slugs.html

[Mescalero]

Told you!

[TedH]

Told you!

[Mescalero]

[TedH]

a man named Ed Hubel has made dozens of shotgun loads of mind-boggling proportions and worked up safe loadings for breaking just about anything.

there are hundreds of posts in various threads online, this is one starting point:

http://www.baitshopboyz.com/forum/forum ... 10178&PN=1

here's 25 pages at BTB:

http://www.shootersforum.com/shotguns-s ... slugs.html

I've read a lot of Mr. Hubel's work and I have no intention of approaching any of his loads. At least not with this 6 lb . single shot.

[piller]

Sounds as if it would be fun to watch. I wonder how many people at the range would come over and start telling you about how they did it. You know the type.

[Dave James]

Ted, looks like your trying to recreate the old black powder Cape Gun loads of the Britt's, should be a hoot, and work well on deer and hogs. IF you haven't you should pop over to accurate reloading and talk with the guys and gals in the double guns forum or African forum, there are several there who shoot the original stuff that may be ale to help with loads,, Ed runs his stuff up there but he is a wealth of knowledge

[Gaucho Gringo]

4 oz of lead hurts bad enough when you accidentally get hit with it fishing. No way I would want it coming at me at 1600fps.

[TedH]

Ted, looks like your trying to recreate the old black powder Cape Gun loads of the Britt's, should be a hoot, and work well on deer and hogs. IF you haven't you should pop over to accurate reloading and talk with the guys and gals in the double guns forum or African forum, there are several there who shoot the original stuff that may be ale to help with loads,, Ed runs his stuff up there but he is a wealth of knowledge

That was my thinking that got me started on this project. I figured if I can't afford one of the rifles, at least I could replicate their ammo.

I spent some time over on the Accurate forum a few years ago when I started loading for my 470 double, but I haven't logged in there for quite a while now. There are some there that looked down their noses at my Krieghoff, I can't imagine what they would say about my H&R!

[BrentD]

There are some there that looked down their noses at my Krieghoff,

I'd be happy to take that off you hands so that won't happen to you any more...

[3leggedturtle]

Any one that would look down their nose on a 470 double just isn't worth the gas it would take to drive them to a democrat convention and push them out the door at 55mph

Guy at Gunroom in Cabela's let me handle a 500 double. What nice handling and well made piece of craftsmanship. I was only $8500 short or I might have bought it.

[piller]

4 oz of lead hurts bad enough when you accidentally get hit with it fishing. No way I would want it coming at me at 1600fps.

4 ounces of lead at 1600fps would only hurt for a very short time. I would like to see how accurate it is going to be since it sounds like fun.