M1 carbine and cartridge

[EdinCT]

I had a carbine that I bought used for 25 dollars that had a broken firing pin. It was chambered for the 256 mag and I think it had 256 Ferret on the receiver. I sold it for 175.00 after two boxes of shells because the ammo was 26 bucks a box.
Wish I hadn't but it was a long time ago.

[AJMD429]

Can't help but wonder if by downsizing the Garand by 1/3, and spitzering and lopping the rim off a .30-30, voila! Effectively an American semi-auto AK/7.62- a war-era "Mini 30," 15-20 rd box included, wouldnt have been just the thing for 1/2 the troops vs the sometimes too big Garand or too small carbine....but military industrial politics seemed to preclude much new thinking once the war drums started beating.

Speaking of "industrical politics", this book was an eye-opener...

"Nothing Less the Full Victory - http://www.amazon.com/Nothing-Less-Than ... 1591144949"

[Mescalero]

What people do not realize is you can make your brass from .223 and headspace on the shoulder.
.256 Win Mag.

[handirifle]

Mr. Handi Rifle,
If you notice, I have close to 7,000 posts and it a safe bet to say that a third of them have been of the nature of me imparting 40 years of knowledge to those in need. Many of the answers I have given have cost me plenty of loot (money) and time in order to get that knowledge. I gave that knowledge away for free.

The questions I have asked number in the single digits from those 7,000 posts.

The problem with today's society is that they have no idea of how to be resourceful and are either too lazy or cheap to find out information on their own. So.......they do what most liberals do......either take from those who do, trick them, or bluntly ask with no shame and hoping there are a few fish out there.

It's totally cool to ask questions and that's probably why these discussion boards were invented, you know, the "information superhighway" but there is also etiquette involved and I would never think to have a 7 question post that would take an hour or two for someone else to answer correctly. Sure, I could bypass the question and go on to something else, but if you notice, there are a few here who constantly "ask", never help others and that bugs the livin' pelosi out of me so I respond with a smart alec reply, hoping they will try to do things on their own and maybe learn something.

Gimme....gimme....all products of the Klinton Generation, usually hard core liberals who would perish if their electricity got turned off.

How many times do we see posts that ask,"where can I find a screw for a butt plate?"

I say get off your lazy azz and find it yourself. I will never answer a question that is easily found out just by Googling.

It's much easier to have others do your work for you, but I go by the Bible that says, "God helps those who help themselves"

Have a nice day and don't forget to pay your taxes as there are millions of leaches out there depending on your hard earned income .-------6

Well Mr Sixgun
I don't care if you have 10,000 posts, it does not give you the right to be rude to the OP, as has been well attested to by the TREMENDOUS outpouring of info to answer his questions, regardless how easy to find, in some opinions, the answer might be, to some.

No need to be so presumptuous about the OP, or anyone else in CA, being liberal.

I am a retired Air Traffic Controller and when I trained new controllers over the 26 1/2 years I was there, I answered the same "stupid" questions, over and over with each new person. So based on that I should be rude to every new one that came in with a question, where the answer "could" be found. Someone looking for a screw for a buttplate MIGHT be a new gun owner and have no clue where to look for gun parts. Common courtesy should be expected unless a new poster starts off rude, in my opinion. This OP did not!

Personally, I do not have the time to sit around to even come close to 7000 posts! Someone has to work.

[Bullard4075]

Mr. Handi Rifle,
If you notice, I have close to 7,000 posts and it a safe bet to say that a third of them have been of the nature of me imparting 40 years of knowledge to those in need. Many of the answers I have given have cost me plenty of loot (money) and time in order to get that knowledge. I gave that knowledge away for free.

The questions I have asked number in the single digits from those 7,000 posts.

The problem with today's society is that they have no idea of how to be resourceful and are either too lazy or cheap to find out information on their own. So.......they do what most liberals do......either take from those who do, trick them, or bluntly ask with no shame and hoping there are a few fish out there.

It's totally cool to ask questions and that's probably why these discussion boards were invented, you know, the "information superhighway" but there is also etiquette involved and I would never think to have a 7 question post that would take an hour or two for someone else to answer correctly. Sure, I could bypass the question and go on to something else, but if you notice, there are a few here who constantly "ask", never help others and that bugs the livin' pelosi out of me so I respond with a smart alec reply, hoping they will try to do things on their own and maybe learn something.

Gimme....gimme....all products of the Klinton Generation, usually hard core liberals who would perish if their electricity got turned off.

How many times do we see posts that ask,"where can I find a screw for a butt plate?"

I say get off your lazy azz and find it yourself. I will never answer a question that is easily found out just by Googling.

It's much easier to have others do your work for you, but I go by the Bible that says, "God helps those who help themselves"

Have a nice day and don't forget to pay your taxes as there are millions of leaches out there depending on your hard earned income .-------6

Well Mr Sixgun
I don't care if you have 10,000 posts, it does not give you the right to be rude to the OP, as has been well attested to by the TREMENDOUS outpouring of info to answer his questions, regardless how easy to find, in some opinions, the answer might be, to some.

No need to be so presumptuous about the OP, or anyone else in CA, being liberal.

I am a retired Air Traffic Controller and when I trained new controllers over the 26 1/2 years I was there, I answered the same "stupid" questions, over and over with each new person. So based on that I should be rude to every new one that came in with a question, where the answer "could" be found. Someone looking for a screw for a buttplate MIGHT be a new gun owner and have no clue where to look for gun parts. Common courtesy should be expected unless a new poster starts off rude, in my opinion. This OP did not!

Personally, I do not have the time to sit around to even come close to 7000 posts! Someone has to work.

+1
I've been here a few years and this is the first time I've seen less than exemplary conduct from Sixgun. Maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention.
I for one am going to put this down to someone having a bad day. I truly enjoy this forum and the gentleman on it. We all could brush up on our manners time to time.
I totally agree with Handi Rifle . As another retired (32 years) Air Traffic Controller (small world!) my experiences (training/"stupid guestions") parallels his. There is not stupid questions just helpful/unhelpful answers.

[Conductor]

Bought some Korean ammo once that was supposed to be non-corrosive. Should have cleaned it. gun rusted up terrible and pitted the barrel inside some. Scrubbed and JB bore pasted. Edges of the grooves are dark but the rifling is still strong and it didn't seem to hurt accuracy.

Bob

I've owned a number of M1 carbines over the past 45 years, and have found only two types of corrosive 30 Carbine ammo. The French government made a fairly small quantity of it in the late 1940s, most of which supposedly ended up in French Indo-China (Vietnam). Some of it did make it to the US, and two boxes of the stuff ended up going through one of my carbines. I was somewhat of a fanatic at the time about cleaning the bores of my guns, and had no problem with the bore of my carbine after a thorough cleaning with USGI "Cleaner, Rifle Bore". What did happen though, is that the gas piston rusted solidly in place.
The other type of corrosive 30 Carbine ammo is the Chinese stuff. It comes in flimsy brown 50-round cardboard boxes, with "7,62 MM" rubber-stamped in red ink on the top of the box. It is headstamped "LC 52", and many people think that it is US Lake City Arsenal ammo, made in 1952. If you pull a bullet on the Chinese ammo, however, you will find that it has Berdan primers (2 flash holes). That stuff is as corrosive as battery acid. If you're shooting it in a Ruger pistol, it would probably be okay, since the Blackhawk revolver is easy to clean. But I wouldn't run it through any carbine of mine.
I've never seen or heard of any Korean 30 Carbine ammo being corrosive.

[Mescalero]

Conductor,
Thanks for the heads up on the Chinese stuff.

[Sixgun]

[Mescalero]

[6pt-sika]

I have two of them my father and grandfather bought from the NRA back about 1962 or so . I also have the reciepts for the rifles , they cost $12.50 each plus $2.50 shipping each and they came from the Tobyhanna Army Depot in Tobyhanna PA . Both are the ones that had been refitted for Korea .

I watched my grandfather pop all kinds of things with the Rock Ola he had . My dads is a Winchester .

My grandfather carried that Carbine alot during deer season here as he was more intrested in urkey and a Carbine wih regular military hardball was a pretty decent turkey killer without much if any destruction . He also carried a clip full of Norma factory softnose just in case he saw a deer inside of 50 yards !

[Chuck 100 yd]

I have owned a couple .30 Carbines over the years and as long as ammo was cheap they were pretty good tin can plinkers but not much more. as soon as the ammo started to dry up around here I traded them off .
I still have the loading dies and that is prompting me to buy a Ruger BlackHawk in that caliber.

[OldWin]

A good read on this subject is "U.S. Infantry Weapons in Combat" by Mark Goodwin. It is a book of interviews with WWII and Korean War vets on U.S. small arms and their personal experience and opinions. While there are the old cliché opinions by some it is easy to tell. who the "gun people" are. There were many from both conflicts that liked the M1/2 carbine. They seemed to be fairly "gun oriented" people and understood what it was and didn't have unreal expectations. One Korean vet thought that within 100/150yrds the M2 carbine was one of the most vicious rigs going for night patrols/ambushes.

[AJMD429]

I've been here a few years and this is the first time I've seen less than exemplary conduct from Sixgun. Maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention. I for one am going to put this down to someone having a bad day. I truly enjoy this forum and the gentleman on it. We all could brush up on our manners time to time.

Well, I read (> all of Sixgun's posts in this thread) and most of them are full of valid, non-condescending, information...

[3leggedturtle]

I shot quite a few Lee 130gr RN's over a charge of 2400 in both my Universal and Inland M-1's with complete reliability. The Lee 113gr FN was just as reliable.

[Bob Hatfield]

Bought some Korean ammo once that was supposed to be non-corrosive. Should have cleaned it. gun rusted up terrible and pitted the barrel inside some. Scrubbed and JB bore pasted. Edges of the grooves are dark but the rifling is still strong and it didn't seem to hurt accuracy.

Bob

I've owned a number of M1 carbines over the past 45 years, and have found only two types of corrosive 30 Carbine ammo. The French government made a fairly small quantity of it in the late 1940s, most of which supposedly ended up in French Indo-China (Vietnam). Some of it did make it to the US, and two boxes of the stuff ended up going through one of my carbines. I was somewhat of a fanatic at the time about cleaning the bores of my guns, and had no problem with the bore of my carbine after a thorough cleaning with USGI "Cleaner, Rifle Bore". What did happen though, is that the gas piston rusted solidly in place.
The other type of corrosive 30 Carbine ammo is the Chinese stuff. It comes in flimsy brown 50-round cardboard boxes, with "7,62 MM" rubber-stamped in red ink on the top of the box. It is headstamped "LC 52", and many people think that it is US Lake City Arsenal ammo, made in 1952. If you pull a bullet on the Chinese ammo, however, you will find that it has Berdan primers (2 flash holes). That stuff is as corrosive as battery acid. If you're shooting it in a Ruger pistol, it would probably be okay, since the Blackhawk revolver is easy to clean. But I wouldn't run it through any carbine of mine.
I've never seen or heard of any Korean 30 Carbine ammo being corrosive.

I remember buying it a a local gun store back in the 90's. It was sold by the store as Korean surplus. I still have some somewhere and will look at the headstamp. It probably was the Chinese stuff as I seem to remember the LC stamp and I know I have never bought any GI surplus. I will sort it out of all the loose ball I have.

Thanks

Bob

[bcp]

This guy doesn't look too chewed up:

http://vilda.alaska.edu/cdm/ref/collection/cdmg21/id/99

Bruce

[bcp]

M1 Carbine vs frozen clothing:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm

Lessons learned:
1. If anyone shot at a North Korean Commie and he didn't go down, it was because they missed him. Because frozen clothing sure won't slow down a .30 Carbine.
...
3. I don't know how this rumor got started, but it looks like it was completely false.

4. The .30 Carbine, as we have noted before, is highly underrated in many categories.

[MrMurphy]

Terry cloth towels aren't quilted heavy uniforms.

Still unlikely, but stranger things have happened with bullets meeting bodies.

[OldWin]

I too think the carbine is underrated. I also subscribe to the "miss" theory. Certainly not 100% of the time, but I bet 100% hit with 30-06 weren't DRT either.
I also read this in the book I mentioned in my earlier post. The soldier in question used an M2 quite a bit for night ambushes and patrols. He said he also inspected the dead enemy because he collected data and any documentation for S2. He said he knows for a fact the quilted uniform theory is false. FMJ .30 carbine whistled right on through em'. He didn't say it was a 100% one shot stopper but that within 150yrds it was way more effective than given credit for. He said he saw plenty that didn't stop when hit with an M1 also. He said most promoting the stories of the quilted uniforms had no knowledge if that was what was really happening as they didn't have the opportunity to go and check.
My own experience, while not in shooting Chinese, has been that it is underrated also. Every time I shoot something I'm surprised as it did more than I expected. I once was woken up at camp by a porcupine chewing on some plywood under the camp. I got a light and my carbine with FMJ and went out. I threw some rocks to get him out but he ran out the opposite end. He was probably 40yrds away when I got him in the light. I hit him with the first shot and was shocked as it killed him outright. they are notoriously tough. I went and looked and was surprised as the exit hole had liberated most of the quills in a 5" radius and a liberal amount of guts and meat that were scattered on the lawn. The slug continued into the lawn and lifted a divot of sod about 6" in diameter and about 4" deep. I was impressed.
One more point I would make is that when regarding penetration, I would think it would easily out penetrate the vaunted .45ACP out of the Thompson on quilted uniforms or whatever else. Nobody seems to mention this.

Anyway, this is my .02

[MrMurphy]

You're correct, the .30 carbine penetrates quite a bit better than .45 FMJ....



Having seen a bunch of people shot with odd results and also having seen a 'bulletproof' skunk which soaked up 12-15 .22's, a pair of .45's and a .30-06 before expiring (all of which were hits, visibly impacting).....not much surprises me.

[OldWin]

It's funny you mention that skunk. I had the same experience with one, soaking up 2 16ga #6 charges and several .45ACP FMJ's. I was astounded.

[Mescalero]

My skunk gun is a .22 Mag. with 4x glass on it.
I try for head shots, N.M. skunks are notoriously tough.
When I was young, my friend Keith had a cast bullet load; that would put 5 for 5 through a 1950 chevy steel rim.

[getitdone1]

You guys mention skunks, etc. being hard to kill. I've told this before here but I shot a raccoon that was fighting with our dog several times with a 44 mag. Only the head shot got the job done.

Now, just think about how hard a mad grizzly might be to put down. Once an animal is "stirred-up" can take a lot more to put-em down. No doubt same applies to man.

Don

[JB]

I once owned a carbine in 5.7 Spitfire, which was the 30 carbine necked down to .223. Neat little cartridge, but it just never caught on commercially.

[Pisgah]

Of course, it's unrealistic to condemn a design based on one experience, but my dad had an interesting (harrowing) one in WW2. As a platoon sergeant in Germany, he was tasked to lead a night patrol one evening. He had had about 30 minutes sleep in the past 48 hours and was dog-tired, so he borrowed a carbine from someone to lighten his load. Well after midnight , moving along a country lane in freezing rain, his patrol was ambushed and he took cover in a roadside ditch. He fired one shot -- and the carbine jammed. The brass was stuck in the chamber, and the only way to eject the case was to kick the bolt handle with his heel! Shoot, kick; shoot, kick; shoot, kick, all while in pitch-black darkness and lying in a ditch half-filled with freezing water. He says the engagement probably didn't last 4 minutes, but it seemed like a year -- and once he got his M1 back he didn't let it get more than 6" from his hand until he was wounded and evacuated on April 15, 1945!

[Pisgah]

.

It's much easier to have others do your work for you, but I go by the Bible that says, "God helps those who help themselves"

Which Bible is that, Sixgun? I would love for you to point out what book, chapter and verse. It ain't there.

[hayabusa]

Wikipedia
God helps those who help themselves
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The phrase "God helps those who help themselves" is a popular motto that emphasizes the importance of self-initiative.

The phrase originated in ancient Greece and may originally have been proverbial. It is illustrated by two of Aesop's Fables and a similar sentiment is found in ancient Greek drama. Although it has been commonly attributed to Benjamin Franklin, the modern English wording appears earlier in Algernon Sidney's work.

The phrase is often mistaken as scriptural, but it appears nowhere in the Bible. Some Christians have criticized the expression as being contrary to the Bible's message of God's grace. A variant of the phrase, however, can be found in the Quran (13:11).

hayabusa

[Bullard4075]

What starts as a pi**ing contest about the 30 Carbine ends up with quotes from the Quran.

Gosh I love this place.

[OldWin]

Pisgah,
Sounds like the carbine your dad borrowed had a rusted chamber. He was very lucky that the extractor didn't slip over the rim leaving the case stuck in the chamber.
I bet that did seem like a long four minutes!

[Mike Armstrong]

The military use of the Carbine didn't end with WWII or Korea. My older brother did three tours in the Vietnam War, two of them as an "advisor" to ARVN troops. The first tour, early in the war, he was issued an M-2 selective-fire carbine. He said it worked fine, no FTFs, and killed OK--many of his Vietnamese troops also carried them. Also said that it was, contrary to opinions on the internet that I've read, controllable enough in full auto to keep bursts on target.

One of the better postwar carbines was made by the Japanese firm Howa (still in business, makes actions for the lower-priced Weatherby Vanguard line and others). Many were made for the Japanese Self Defense Forces and many were made for Thai marines. They show up in the US sometimes and are an excellent buy if you're looking for a "shooter."

I've seen many M-1/M-2 carbines in use by police and paramilitary forces in Mexico and Central and South America over the years, even recently when the AK seems to be the "gold standard" down there. They're handy. And they work--RIP Che Guevara.....

[MrMurphy]

They're still highly favored in the Phillipines, and in use as a reserve issue weapon among police and citizens in Israel.