Consensus on 9mm for HD

[Grizz]

I have not killed a human and hope and pray that I never need to.

I have killed a LOT of deer, somewhat similar in terms of rib size, spine size, etc.

I am not drawing an exact equivilant, but I have killed them with a variety of rifles and hand guns ranging from the classic 25-20 to 338 win mag, from 44 mag to 357 mag.

I often carry a 9mm, but the only thing that makes it even close to being sufficient is the ready availability of soft targets, throat, nose, and eyes, facing you and close. "Center Mass" is not, IMO, a smart target for 9mm, and the available forensics are full of examples of why not.

The 25-20, while capable of killing deer with a heart shot, is also capable of wounding a deer fatally with enough gas left to escape and die in the dark, and perhaps be lost. That is not a fight stopper.

The 357 mag, while touted as a great fight stopper, is also marginal on deer from my experience. A fabulous ear shot killed one before it hit the ground, but a very tough buck survived multiple hits from a Keith cast bullet load before finally dying with a defiant stare. Not a fight stopper, in every case.

Those calibers do not compare to a 44 mag in hunting situations. We made lots of venison with carbine and revolver, the results were always the same. Reliable CNS shots and boiler room shots from longer distances. The issue is that the 44 will certainly exit and is still lethal on the far side.

Dirty Harry is Smarty Harry. I think the biggest reason to carry the common hand gun ammo in the common calibers is to prevent OVER PENETRATION. We risk injury to ourselves by limiting the effectiveness of our own options in order to reduce harm to others... we opt for more ammo so we don't run dry first and aim small to make the most of it.

In this context, and based on the chart I posted twice in this thread, one caliber is as useful as the other if the bullets can be placed in the most effective spots. I know this is heresy and from someone who has not ever faced mortal combat.

My shotgun is almost as close as my hand gun and always preferred if I can get to it....

....Grizz

[J Miller]

I am reading all the posts that's been put here. Never having been in combat or a gun fight, I have no basis to make a good choice other than other peoples experiences. I can shoot. I can put the bullets where they need to go. But that is my only experience.

I've owned 1911 types many times, currently don't have one. I like them and yet I'm looking at something with a larger capacity and perhaps a DAO action. Ruger used to make .45s like this but with an 8 round mag. The hi-cap .45s do not fit my hands. I've not fired one, but I have held one and they feel like a 2x4 to me. So I was thinking of something a wee bit more ergonomic.

That is why the reference to the 9mm and Browning Hi-Power.

At some point I will be in the market for another self loader. I need to try some others.
No Glocks or any others with that kind of action need apply though. I have shot them, I do not trust them.

Joe

[3leggedturtle]

Joe I have Rugers in 9, 40 and 45. P95, P94 and P97. Nice Pices. The P97 in 45 is a single stack handles and holds nice, with CCI Blazer 230gr loads has a nice bark and flash but little kick. The P94 in 40 using the S&B 180gr at 980fps kicks less than the P95 in 9mm. It would be hard to chose between them. Take a road up 94 and you can give me help deciding. Hope your recovery is going well. Todd

[MikeAuge]

Being new to blogs and this forum, it was very interesting to read all the opinions and examples. It's 12:40 AM (CST) and my wife went to bed long ago. I would agree with those who said accuracy trumps caliber. I keep a SIG P938 on me all the time (where legal). If I had the means to conceal carry my Remington R-1 / 1911, I would; it is my favorite firearm. My wife carries a SIG P238. Lots of people say it's too small to do any real damage. Maybe that's a good thing, but she likes it and carries it everywhere. Back to HD; my "in-home" choice is my 18" Remington 870. Last thing: firearms are like boots - you gotta have one for every occasion.

FWIW - I am a former U.S. Marine / Viet Nam vet, a Freemason, a volunteer (Range Safety Officer) at the Andy B. Dalton Shooting Range (Missouri Dept of Conservation) and a Missionary. I would prefer not to kill anyone but wouldn't hesitate to do so to protect my friends, family or anyone not capable of doing so for themselves. I support the 2nd Amendment and the Constitution of the United States. The oath I took when I enlisted (and reenlisted) in the USMC did not expire when I was honorable discharged.

[olyinaz]

I've owned 1911 types many times, currently don't have one. I like them and yet I'm looking at something with a larger capacity and perhaps a DAO action. Ruger used to make .45s like this but with an 8 round mag. The hi-cap .45s do not fit my hands. I've not fired one, but I have held one and they feel like a 2x4 to me. So I was thinking of something a wee bit more ergonomic.

I understand. The Para high-caps either fit one's hand or they don't. Try a Springfield XD on for size. It's a high-cap .45 that has a grip just like the .40 or 9mm. They go bang every time - very dependable - and you can even get one with a 1911 type safety if you choose.

Also, the STI high-cap .45s have a grip that is said to be thinner than a Para 1911, and very much like a standard 1911 despite being high capacity in .45.

The other, very good, option is a .40 cal Joe. You get more capacity than a 1911, like a 9mm, but more power than a 9mm. Frankly, I think it's a good compromise, and my 16 round .40 cal makes me feel very well armed stoked with Buffalo Bore +P fodder.

[L_Kilkenny]

There's is a FBI study floating around the internet on SD shootings and cartridge effectiveness. It basically backs up what most of us have seen on TV many times. People, even bad people, don't like to get shot or even shot at. While I don't have the exact information in front of me the study goes something like this: A certain number of bad guys will STOP at the sight of a gun. An additional number of bad guys will STOP if shot at, cartridge used irrelevant. A further additional number of bad guys will STOP if shot ANYWHERE, non-life threatening location (foot, arm, hand, etc) and again cartridge being irrelevant. More bad guys will STOP if shot in a life-threatening location regardless of cartridge. The number of times where a gun was actually pulled and the cartridge made any bit of difference in the threat being ended was actually very small.

IIRC, this was limited to SD. We can't compare to SD scenarios to LEO use or combat. The dynamics are very very different.

Like most of us, I've never had to pull, let alone use, a gun for SD. The one time I found myself in a sketchy situation all I had on me was a .22. I found myself praying it was bigger. Much, Much, bigger! Does cartridge matter? At that moment in time it did to me! My opinion of the 9mm......... better than what I had on me.

[madman4570]

I tend to think differently between what is the best (CCW)weapon and what is the best HD weapon.

Answer is easy(for me)------if you woke up God forbid never happens at 3am to strange sounds and whispering in your apartment and your wife was lying right beside you asleep would you feel a 9mm was enough gun??? My answer is Nope!

Though at arms reach I have a Kel-Tec 2000 (.40S&W) 175gr Critical Duty ammo and a SU16-C in .223(loaded with staggered Hornady 53gr V-Maxs@ 3625fps and 69gr FMJ's)----first reach is for shotgun!

The reason the Kel-Tec's are mentioned----though I have what you might consider (higher grade weapons)I have none in those type configurations that are as short/small/handy/light and shoot reliably every time weighing 4lbs. Have a laser on the 2000 and that is one handy little devil!
Laser/Light setup is just like the one shown below-----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExvCX4BBrAU

[Lastmohecken]

I know one thing, I would not depend on the 9mm with hard ball, unless I had no choice, only a good hollowpoint. But a 44, 45, I am quite happy with a cast lead semi-wadcutter.

[MrMurphy]

Lastmohecken, that may be your opinion, but remember the SEALs, SAS and most of the other special ops groups in the world use 9mm....and most of the time, they're using ball.

Put the round where it's supposed to and even 9mm ball works. First guy I ever saw DRT took a single 9mm FMJ to the heart or maybe lung, hit the ground and bled out in less than 2 minutes.

I'm a Glock shooter, have been for 20 years, but J Miller, you may wish to consider the S&W M&P. You can get them with a 1911 type thumb safety, and the Apex replacement trigger is very much like the 1911 (confirmed by many, many die-hard 1911 shooters). Depending on which backstrap you use it can be a very small grip (what I use), a Glock-type grip or a 1911-with-standard-grips feel. They shoot very well and are highly reliable.

STI 2011s are only slightly bigger in grip than a regular 1911, the problem with them is getting reliable magazines, some of them take some tuning.

[BigSky56]

Charles spot on analogy, prior to using the 9 I had used a 45 in a 1911 and a M3 GG I had bullet failure a 45 does not penetrate a flak jacket. I then acquired a 9mm in a P35 and in a swedish K and a walther MPK against the most dangerous game the round worked well and gave good service. The 9 does really well if you use 9mm SMG ammo can be hard on some pistols though, Frank Hammer was a believer in the 38 super. danny

[FWiedner]

I've witnessed a gunfight between a 9mm and a .45.

The fellow with the 9mm attempted to use a defensive cover and movement technique that resulted in him expending his entire magazine (Yes, 15 rounds) 'spraying and praying'. Didn't hit anything living or vital to same.

The fellow with the .45 entered the room, located the aggressor by observing all the jumping around and shooting, and then double-tapped the the 9mm guy center mass sometime in the process of sending (6) 230gr hard-balls in that direction.

Mr. 9mm lived long enough to dive out a 1st story window, but expired laying where he landed.

I'll opine that the outcome had more to do with the participant's state of mind or focus than the caliber of the handguns in use.

But that guy sure did use his 15 rounds. Every one of 'em.

I think that's why he jumped out the window.

I don't know if it's emotional attachment to that event or not but I prefer a .45, but am also perfectly willing to use whatever happens to be on my belt or in the closest drawer, if the need might arise.

Personally, I keep the time tested combo of a .38Spl and 12ga pump by the bed. The wife has no problems with the .38.