444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:17 am

Hmmm, commitee's and boards of directors.....thier welcome to it!

N.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:13 pm

Nath wrote:
tman wrote:I LOVE my 444 94 Bigbore, but nothing beats an M4 as a survival rifle. 15 to 20 hits on an elephant is just as good as 1 hit from a 458 Lott.
The thing is,,,,,getting those light 15-20 shots in to the zone!

In the general flavour of the topic I would want to have some bullet weight over speed.

I'm thinking.....Brown Bess!

N.

More than likely, in a SURVIVAL situation, your not gonna be surrrounded by a herd of elephants or the bullet proof brown bear. Probablly gonna shot deer and smaller game to survive. You can carry alot of uneffecient .223 which our military chose as a battle rifle, opposed to what you consider an adequite bear/elephant stopper. 20 shots in the head of anything in the world from a .223 is gonna be STOPPED.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:17 pm

tman wrote:
Nath wrote:
tman wrote:I LOVE my 444 94 Bigbore, but nothing beats an M4 as a survival rifle. 15 to 20 hits on an elephant is just as good as 1 hit from a 458 Lott.
The thing is,,,,,getting those light 15-20 shots in to the zone!

In the general flavour of the topic I would want to have some bullet weight over speed.

I'm thinking.....Brown Bess!

N.
More than likely, in a SURVIVAL situation, your not gonna be surrrounded by a herd of elephants or the bullet proof brown bear. Probablly gonna shot deer and smaller game to survive. You can carry alot of uneffecient .223 which our military chose as a battle rifle, opposed to what you consider an adequite bear/elephant stopper. 20 shots in the head of anything in the world from a .223 is gonna be STOPPED.

Yes... but when you can put all 20 from a single mag into an8" paper plate off hand rapid fire while amped on a full adrenaline dump THEN I might think you would be effective with the .223.

Better odds of putting ONE .4x bullet into center mass and achieving a Stop than 20 .223s into a head.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:54 pm

Okay, then the elephant gets me. Until we get overun with them and bullet proof brown bears, in a survival situation, I'll take my chances with an M4

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:22 am

Whilst some say I can specialise in being stupid and even struggle with basic grammer I sincerely was not trying to be stupid when I suggested a Brown Bess!

It can be loaded with all sorts. Grit to down a roosted bird. A good pebble could be used.

Apart from powder, a few balls, a few flints and a mold just in case some lead is found off you go! Wadding is everywhere! So to patching.

Now then Mr or Mrs hungry grumpy bear has ignored you whistling a tune and snapping twigs as you scout along and is intent on munching you. Well let him come on in and after exchanging civilities put that huge ball straight down the middle. Heck even the fire and smoke should give you a second or two!

I dunno, just seems kinda more comforting than prairy dog ammo

N

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:49 pm

Nath wrote:Whilst some say I can specialise in being stupid and even struggle with basic grammer I sincerely was not trying to be stupid when I suggested a Brown Bess!

It can be loaded with all sorts. Grit to down a roosted bird. A good pebble could be used.

Apart from powder, a few balls, a few flints and a mold just in case some lead is found off you go! Wadding is everywhere! So to patching.

Now then Mr or Mrs hungry grumpy bear has ignored you whistling a tune and snapping twigs as you scout along and is intent on munching you. Well let him come on in and after exchanging civilities put that huge ball straight down the middle. Heck even the fire and smoke should give you a second or two!

I dunno, just seems kinda more comforting than prairy dog ammo

N

I can do the same with my flint lock blunderbuss. Dig for your own flint, make your own blackpowder and load it with rocks, nails, nuts and bolts. But I want my M4

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:29 pm

Maybe the reason you can carry more 5.56 ammo is because you just might NEED more rounds to get the job done.. I still prefer one or two big, heavy bullets to a dozen or more little bitty ones -- especially delivered in a "spray and pray" mode...

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:52 pm

It keeps going back to the 'few, big, heavy' or 'many, small, fast' question. Either will do most things, but neither will do everything the other will do.

It of course depends on what one is 'surviving', whether shooting for food (and if so, bunnies or buffalo), protection (and if so, from a bear once a month or daily raids by hordes of meth-heads and gangbangers), and for a few days after a wilderness plane-crash, or a few years after an EMP.

Whatever you are going to depend on, it sounds like it had better be reliable and accurate in your hands, and you need to have 'enough' ammunition for whatever it is, which could be an interesting proposition for a long-term situation. Beyond that, nothing is for sure.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:23 am

Buck Elliott wrote:Maybe the reason you can carry more 5.56 ammo is because you just might NEED more rounds to get the job done.. I still prefer one or two big, heavy bullets to a dozen or more little bitty ones -- especially delivered in a "spray and pray" mode...

On foot,500 rounds of 223 is managable. 500 rounds of .375 H&H is a back breaker,

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:07 pm

A'....on foot....with all yer other gear....500 rounds....have I missed something!

I thought we was survivin' not going into battle!

Lugging 500 rounds of LR would be enough without a base camp!

Best get an airgun if you want to carry 500 rounds and the rest of yer gear, oh yeah....the bears....ok.....wheres that Bess

N

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:46 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:Maybe the reason you can carry more 5.56 ammo is because you just might NEED more rounds to get the job done.. I still prefer one or two big, heavy bullets to a dozen or more little bitty ones -- especially delivered in a "spray and pray" mode...

Speaking of "spray and pray" did you see where Wyoming made it legal for 22 center fire on deer, speed goats and wolves. I thought until this year it was .24 cal or bigger.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:04 pm

Nath wrote:A'....on foot....with all yer other gear....500 rounds....have I missed something!

I thought we was survivin' not going into battle!

Lugging 500 rounds of LR would be enough without a base camp!

Best get an airgun if you want to carry 500 rounds and the rest of yer gear, oh yeah....the bears....ok.....wheres that Bess

N

Dude, start hitting the weights.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:28 pm

Nath wrote:Best get an airgun if you want to carry 500 rounds and the rest of yer gear...

That is actually one option that I've always thought would be good for SOME scenarios...

Sam Yang 909-S - 45 caliber 180 grains 700-750 fps

If you could get it to use 45 cal sabots successfully, you could shoot all sorts of projectiles in an emergency.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:10 pm

not my choice for griszzly bear protection [ my first several choices are 45/70 in my modern day brownchester 1886 lever gun, stoutly loaded ] but the little cartridge seems to have worked out ok for this guy up here , just outside of anchorage:

http://www.adn.com/2013/07/29/2997953/s ... trail.html

' A man hiking on a popular Turnagain Arm trail near the Seward Highway killed a charging brown bear with a semi-automatic AK-74 rifle Sunday, prompting Chugach State Park rangers to close a section of the trail.

The hiker, who has not been identified by Alaska State Troopers, had set out from the Rainbow trail head at Milepost 108 of the highway Sunday morning, said Tom Crockett, a park ranger. He was near the first Turnagain Arm viewpoint, about a half-mile up the trail toward McHugh Creek, when he spotted the bear. It was on the edge of a birch and spruce forest with abundant blueberries and serviceberries.

“The bear presented its rear end to him,” Crockett said.

The man called, “Hey, bear,” hoping not to startle the animal, he said.

The bear turned and charged, the hiker later told rangers.

The man fired the AK-74 he was carrying, Crockett said. The bear stopped after the first volley of shots, and then charged again.

The man fired once more, Crockett said.

That time the bear folded into a ball, rolling and running downhill and thudding to a stop in a clump of birch trees about 100 yards from the trail.

“There it expired,” Crockett said.

Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2013/07/29/2997953/s ... rylink=cpy
.................."

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:03 pm

One of the largest (and certainly unluckiest) grizz ever taken in Wyoming was killed with a single shot from an AR15 -- in the Dark, from a ranchers porch.. That still does not make the .223 an ideal bear killer.. Bullet hit the bear in the side of the neck, severely damaging the spinal cord.. When the shooter went out to check, just after first light, he found the bruin dead in the yard..

Back to the .444... If that was what I had, I would try to make the best of it.. It would likely serve me well enough, although in a scrap with wolves, limited magazine capacity could become a problem.. The fact that I do not have (nor will I ever have) a .444 revolver means that I would have to have a good supply of Two different cartridges, to feed both guns.. Thanks, but I'll stick to the .44 Mag, or the .45 Colt, maybe the .454, if I get lucky..

If I had to pack a Big bore levergun, my choice would be a modern 1886, in .45-70, loaded with hard cast, 400-grain slugs, because that is a combination I know and trust..

Other considerations lead me to think seriously about a shotgun, in place of a rifle, but then, the bulk and weight of ammunition enters the picture again...

It's an interesting topic to toss back and forth, and I doubt we will ever come to a difinitive consenus on the matter..

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:44 pm

Overall survival, as opposed to big bear and elephant hunting. I KNOW the best weapon for elephant and bear ain't a .233

. Infantry troops don't carry .458 Lotts JUST INCASE, they are surrounded by a heard of elephants in battle

. Survival/poaching exsitense is different from sport hunting.

rimrock · Post by **rimrock** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:24 pm

One good solid hit on BG, and somthin' coming off or he'll have 2 drain holes. Either way. I'd say YEAH!!! .444 is a good survival round!!

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:56 pm

.444 is too much gun for a survival gun. .22 would be my first choice. If I needed something a little bigger I would try a carbine in 357. The load/bullet makes more difference than the caliber.

As for bears I will bet anyone here that I have a better chance of stopping a bear with a .357 carbine head shot than they can with a broken clavicle. The head is stabilized in animals and is the least subject to random motions of any part of the anatomy. Besides bears don't have clavicles.

765x53 · Post by **765x53** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:10 pm

Has anyone ever "survived" using the "survival gun" they had planned to use?

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:37 pm

765x53 wrote:Has anyone ever "survived" using the "survival gun" they had planned to use?

i sure haven't...... and honestly hope i never have to. but if next week, i had to go out here locally, say off the Denali highway, and survive, using a firearm i already have, then i would take a JP Sauer drilling, a double 12 ga over 30/06, with quick detachable claw mounted scope. it has an insert barrel already fitted to go in one of the shotgun barrels, so i can fire 22 wmr [ or 22 lr with an insert in the insert ] and a small insert for the shotgun barrel, allowing use of 410 shells.,

so equipped [ and ignoring legalities such as seasons,etc. ] i could take caribou, moose, grouse, ptarmigan, hares, and even bears if needed.

i am actually taking it with me on a caribou hunt in that very area the week of august 10th. otherwise we will be carrying lever guns [ 307 , 356, and a 7x30 waters ]

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:16 pm

hfcable wrote:
765x53 wrote:Has anyone ever "survived" using the "survival gun" they had planned to use?
i sure haven't...... and honestly hope i never have to. but if next week, i had to go out here locally, say off the Denali highway, and survive, using a firearm i already have, then i would take a JP Sauer drilling, a double 12 ga over 30/06, with quick detachable claw mounted scope. it has an insert barrel already fitted to go in one of the shotgun barrels, so i can fire 22 wmr [ or 22 lr with an insert in the insert ] and a small insert for the shotgun barrel, allowing use of 410 shells.,

so equipped [ and ignoring legalities such as seasons,etc. ] i could take caribou, grouse, ptarmigan, hares, and even bears if needed.

i am actually taking it with me on a caribou hunt in that very area the week of august 10th. otherwise we will be carrying lever guns [ 307 , 356, and a 7x30 waters ]

You Win. Such was my dream combo when I lived in Anchorage.

Chamber Adapters are DaBomb.

The things that can be done with them (if one is willing to forgo ATF "regulations") in a survival situation are amazing. (research 26.5mm Flare Guns & 26.5mm to 12ga Adapters... Add 12ga to ??? as necessary...)

Certainly not useful in combat, but for Survival? Best gadgets Ever.

harry · Post by **harry** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:35 pm

If you guys are talking survival I would suggest you get a good compass, that way you won’t need to pack an ammo can full of 223. If you are talking about wilderness existence, I purchased a Baikal MP-94MP which is 22 mag over 410 and mounted a scope on it. For a cheap gun it will group under 2” at 100 yards with the 22 mag , I have shot the 410 with the scope and if I had to eat it’s just fine for shooting roosting game. I pack the Baikal with me on all of my hiking and 4wheeler trips where I could be stuck in the woods for an extended amount of time.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:47 pm

harry wrote:If you guys are talking survival I would suggest you get a good compass, that way you won’t need to pack an ammo can full of 223. If you are talking about wilderness existence, I purchased a Baikal MP-94MP which is 22 mag over 410 and mounted a scope on it. For a cheap gun it will group under 2” at 100 yards with the 22 mag , I have shot the 410 with the scope and if I had to eat it’s just fine for shooting roosting game. I pack the Baikal with me on all of my hiking and 4wheeler trips where I could be stuck in the woods for an extended amount of time.

you are right. i NEVER go out without at least one compass, and firestarting materials. i have several baikal combo guns, and savage combos,. including the savage 24C camper 20g /22lr [ with a 410 insert in the 20 ga barrel usually ]; i carry one of these on my 4 wheeler most of the time.
however, if i KNEW i was in a for a week or month of living off the land, i would still take my drilling for its added capabilities.

the baikal in 12 ga over 7.62 x 39 is also a pretty versatile rig... i was sighting one of those in just thursday pm

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:12 pm

hfcable wrote:
harry wrote:If you guys are talking survival I would suggest you get a good compass, that way you won’t need to pack an ammo can full of 223. If you are talking about wilderness existence, I purchased a Baikal MP-94MP which is 22 mag over 410 and mounted a scope on it. For a cheap gun it will group under 2” at 100 yards with the 22 mag , I have shot the 410 with the scope and if I had to eat it’s just fine for shooting roosting game. I pack the Baikal with me on all of my hiking and 4wheeler trips where I could be stuck in the woods for an extended amount of time.
you are right. i NEVER go out without at least one compass, and firestarting materials. i have several baikal combo guns, and savage combos,. including the savage 24C camper 20g /22lr [ with a 410 insert in the 20 ga barrel usually ]; i carry one of these on my 4 wheeler most of the time.
however, if i KNEW i was in a for a week or month of living off the land, i would still take my drilling for its added capabilities.

the baikal in 12 ga over 7.62 x 39 is also a pretty versatile rig... i was sighting one of those in just thursday pm

Range report please

N.

JNG · Post by **JNG** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:58 pm

444 is very usefull, though if I had to have 1 rifle to survive on I would take a rifle in 357. Can shoot small game with the 38 spl and for larger game .357. Both rounds will work for SD. I still love my Sharps 45-70.

Joe

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:17 pm

Nath wrote:
hfcable wrote:
harry wrote:If you guys are talking survival I would suggest you get a good compass, that way you won’t need to pack an ammo can full of 223. If you are talking about wilderness existence, I purchased a Baikal MP-94MP which is 22 mag over 410 and mounted a scope on it. For a cheap gun it will group under 2” at 100 yards with the 22 mag , I have shot the 410 with the scope and if I had to eat it’s just fine for shooting roosting game. I pack the Baikal with me on all of my hiking and 4wheeler trips where I could be stuck in the woods for an extended amount of time.
you are right. i NEVER go out without at least one compass, and firestarting materials. i have several baikal combo guns, and savage combos,. including the savage 24C camper 20g /22lr [ with a 410 insert in the 20 ga barrel usually ]; i carry one of these on my 4 wheeler most of the time.
however, if i KNEW i was in a for a week or month of living off the land, i would still take my drilling for its added capabilities.

the baikal in 12 ga over 7.62 x 39 is also a pretty versatile rig... i was sighting one of those in just thursday pm
Range report please

N.

ran out of time. was trying to sight in iron sights and a quick removable scope; groups with rifle barrel were excellent, both several inches to right, with scope at maximum adjustment. going back with different scope and mounts, in next few days.

will update then. i think this will be a very useful rig.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:12 am

Absolutly usefull.....keep us posted!

N.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:26 pm

765x53 wrote:Has anyone ever "survived" using the "survival gun" they had planned to use?

Yep. Just once, but while that little AR-7 wasn't ideal, it certainly kept things from escalating. Seems most folks don't like even that tiny .22 hole pointed I their direction. Especially when it is quite clear the old, fat, white guy knows how to use it and is perfectly willing to do so.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:06 am

Will a .444 work well as a "survival" rifle..? Of course, as would almost any firearm you had to press into service..

Is it the "ideal" rifle and caliber ccombination? Probably not, for reasons I have already covered in this thread..

When thinking "survival", think "simple", in the same thought.. While I don't mean to disparage, multiple ammunition types (rifle, shotgun, &c..) and sets of sub-caliber auxilliary barrel inserts are pipe dreams..

My very serious suggestion (recommendation) would be a levergun and a revolver, chambered for the same round, whatever that might be, to suit your particular circumstance and location.. In some cases, a .22 rimfire might be adequate.. Where I live, it would not.. Some folks could do well with a .38/.357 combo, and never feel undergunned.. In my neck of the woods, circumstance might up the ante to a .41 or .44 Mag, or .45 Colt.. Maybe even a .454 or .480, if that is what you have..

A selection of various loads, which could be fired in Both guns would make sense.. Maybe a handful of cases loaded with round-ball, and a few more, loaded with shot capsules, as adjunct to "regular" loads, would serve to take on just about any foraging or defensive role you might think of..

In any case, leave the extra hardware -- the gadgets and the gimmicks -- behind.. The less equipment and fewer accessories you have to lug around, the better. One key to survival is Mobility...

A really good knife or two, and a reliable means to start a fire will be critically important to your "survival" and you shouldn't skimp on those, whether you know that your exercise is coming up, or you suddenly find yourself in a critical circumstance..

These are just the ramblings of an old man who has spent many seasons out in the tall/uncut of Utah, Idaho, Wyoming and Montana.. YMMV...

Always remember that your most important (and sometimes most overlooked) survival tool is your brain, and your ability to identify, face and solve problems as they arise.. That can make all the difference between "surviving" and being a statistic...

mickbr · Post by **mickbr** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 5:10 am

Hi Doc, old thread of yours here on an interesting subject. Wondered if you might know an alternative link or source for the article as the link is now dead.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:05 am

I guess the question with any survival gun is, what is it that you're hoping to survive? In my mind it's just a general use firearm that is easily fed and powerful enough to handle 90% of its potential uses with one or two shots. Unless you live where the big bears and moose room, the 357 in a rifle and revolver would be hard to beat.

I wouldn't entirely discount the need for an elephant rifle. I'm sure there's a Sci-Fi novel out there that involves zombie attacks riding elephants LOL

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:53 am

Sarge wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:05 am I guess the question with any survival gun is, what is it that you're hoping to survive? In my mind it's just a general use firearm that is easily fed and powerful enough to handle 90% of its potential uses with one or two shots. Unless you live where the big bears and moose room, the 357 in a rifle and revolver would be hard to beat.

I wouldn't entirely discount the need for an elephant rifle. I'm sure there's a Sci-Fi novel out there that involves zombie attacks riding elephants LOL

What he said!

I used to love reading Mel Tappin and others who wrote about this kind of thing decades ago. But as I get older I am less and less interested in these survival scenarios and more interested in surviving situations that I actually see happening.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:46 am

Ten years old. Proving that old threads and even older levergunners never die.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 11:38 am

jeepnik wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:46 am Ten years old. Proving that old threads and even older levergunners never die.

Ya'But just as interesting now as it was then. I think a donkey is a better investment. Then we can carry the stuff to the boat that we don't want to abandon, where we can kiss Donk goodbye and head for the sunset . . . best case scenario we could hope for.

But ROOTOH, it's not unreasonable to suspect that we could be stuck in place salvaging AK mags and burning bodies until they get us . . .

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 5:56 pm

Can fire a number of rounds.

JBowen · Post by **JBowen** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:44 pm

Here is one scenario that I have been working toward ......
I have a Win. BB94 .444, a Winchester 94 .44 mag, a Browning B92 .44 mag, a Ruger SBH .44 mag and a Navy Arms 44-40 that all shoot
the .429- .430 bullets. I use various jacketed bullets in them, but I have been thinking about getting a few molds and find one that will
work reasonably well in all of them with Unique just for hard times. Stock up on lead, powder and primers.

Or, I could do the same with my 38 Specials, .357 mag rifles and revolvers and my BB95 .356 Win.

If I was forced out of my home, I would probably grab the .357 Rossi and the .357 Blackhawk and all the ammo I could carry. The .357
will take care of most things in my neck of the woods.

I hope the Lord calls us home before we have to worry about it. Be prepared.

JBowen

mickbr · Post by **mickbr** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:29 pm

jeepnik wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:46 am Ten years old. Proving that old threads and even older levergunners never die.

Unfortunately the link to the article died in that time, resurrecting it to see if Doc has an alternative source for it.

mickbr · Post by **mickbr** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:32 pm

JBowen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:44 pm Here is one scenario that I have been working toward ......
I have a Win. BB94 .444, a Winchester 94 .44 mag, a Browning B92 .44 mag, a Ruger SBH .44 mag and a Navy Arms 44-40 that all shoot
the .429- .430 bullets. I use various jacketed bullets in them, but I have been thinking about getting a few molds and find one that will
work reasonably well in all of them with Unique just for hard times. Stock up on lead, powder and primers.

JBowen

another advantage is 44 cal shotloads and the capability to run some 44 cases/projectiles through a 410 shotgun if its all you have left. Sure to spark some debate that subject but it was done in lean times and might happen again

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:38 pm

mickbr wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:29 pm
jeepnik wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:46 am Ten years old. Proving that old threads and even older levergunners never die.
Unfortunately the link to the article died in that time, resurrecting it to see if Doc has an alternative source for it.

Thank you. I'm hoping someone will update it.
I've got a 444 marlin in the safe that I resurrected and turned into a saddle ring carbine with a Williams peep sight. Haven't even shot it yet. I've got a ton of 265 and 300 gr bullets I need to play with.

JBowen · Post by **JBowen** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:41 pm

mickbr wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:32 pm
JBowen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:44 pm Here is one scenario that I have been working toward ......
I have a Win. BB94 .444, a Winchester 94 .44 mag, a Browning B92 .44 mag, a Ruger SBH .44 mag and a Navy Arms 44-40 that all shoot
the .429- .430 bullets. I use various jacketed bullets in them, but I have been thinking about getting a few molds and find one that will
work reasonably well in all of them with Unique just for hard times. Stock up on lead, powder and primers.

JBowen

another advantage is 44 cal shotloads and the capability to run some 44 cases/projectiles through a 410 shotgun if its all you have left. Sure to spark some debate that subject but it was done in lean times and might happen again

Good point Mickbr. I need to add that to my list.

JBowen

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:57 pm

I enjoyed reading this old thread again. I realize Buck has moved on from this world but it was neat to read his responses again

What manner of survival situation would have us completely cut off I wonder. Small plane crash in the bush maybe? Be best to stay close to the crash site, but if it’s dense canopy or lots of snow, may be hard to see admittedly.

I have enjoyed using 45/70’s with light loads over the years (325 gr ftx) so I can see a 444 being a lateral move, Buuuuuut

If a true survival situation, either would just be too big for occasional targets of opportunity like squirrel, birds, — any small game.

I like the pump or semiauto shotgun idea with birdshot primarily and a few slugs or buckshot handy in a buttcuff or sling or one of those sidesaddle shell holders if opportunity came up for bigger game

If “survival” calls for a full 210 round infantry loadout, that is a completely different topic.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Nov 01, 2023 10:45 am

Streetstar wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:57 pm I enjoyed reading this old thread again. I realize Buck has moved on from this world but it was neat to read his responses again

What manner of survival situation would have us completely cut off I wonder. Small plane crash in the bush maybe? Be best to stay close to the crash site, but if it’s dense canopy or lots of snow, may be hard to see admittedly.

I have enjoyed using 45/70’s with light loads over the years (325 gr ftx) so I can see a 444 being a lateral move, Buuuuuut

If a true survival situation, either would just be too big for occasional targets of opportunity like squirrel, birds, — any small game.

I like the pump or semiauto shotgun idea with birdshot primarily and a few slugs or buckshot handy in a buttcuff or sling or one of those sidesaddle shell holders if opportunity came up for bigger game

If “survival” calls for a full 210 round infantry loadout, that is a completely different topic. [true dat]

.
To the question, yes a 444 can help someone survive, but the question is still "survive what". I have a stainless guide gun, it will do anything a 444 can do, and then some. Plus it has the TKO of a 12Ga slug, so that's a plus. But if I thought I had to have a shotgun, then I would want to ditch the guide gun, depending on whether I had transportation or not.

The other "survival gun" is my Ruger 22 Automatic. This can make meat, and stop certain classes of vermin. It seems to me that the minimum battery is the Ruger plus whatever seems most appropriate. 12Ga is more versatile in some ways, but drop a moose at 80 yards? Which is a shot I can make with a guide gun. IDK If it's a boat trip the signaling device accepts 12Ga flares, that could stop something, or a spear gun. . . or the boar spear... if it's on foot with the bare minimum Otzi had the kit for that . . .

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:07 pm

mickbr wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 5:10 am Hi Doc, old thread of yours here on an interesting subject. Wondered if you might know an alternative link or source for the article as the link is now dead.

No but I’d be interested as well.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:11 pm

Grizz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 11:38 am
jeepnik wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:46 am Ten years old. Proving that old threads and even older levergunners never die.
Ya'But just as interesting now as it was then. I think a donkey is a better investment. Then we can carry the stuff to the boat that we don't want to abandon, where we can kiss Donk goodbye and head for the sunset . . . best case scenario we could hope for.

But ROOTOH, it's not unreasonable to suspect that we could be stuck in place salvaging AK mags and burning bodies until they get us . . .

I’m thinking donkey steak for the boat trip. Maybe give the beast a quart of tequila first.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:14 pm

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And I do think personally I just might opt for the 1894 in 357 Mag, since one could carry or reload TONS more ammo with similar weight components. Still kill up to whitetail easily, bigger stuff if needed, and two-legged predators just as well.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:00 pm

AJMD429 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:14 pm .
And I do think personally I just might opt for the 1894 in 357 Mag, since one could carry or reload TONS more ammo with similar weight components. Still kill up to whitetail easily, bigger stuff if needed, and two-legged predators just as well.

It's a good plan for your needs... the boat won't hold a donkey or his feed. might trade for ammo. I have a different calculation about the hypothetical, and my 45/70, which can deliver 600+Gr bullets can also deliver 175Gr round ball, which puts into the 357 zone of influence with hand loads in both. yes it's heavier, but for woods walking in SE Alaska I'm glad for that. I have actually stood 5' from a fresh bear condo, with fresh bear sign involving the field of dug up skunk cabbage. I looked into the end of the rifle at the little .338 hole and said never again...

And if it's really a survival situation I would likely kill deer with the .22. All speculation and I am not sure when or how the current cultural suicide will affect man made plans.
†
grizz

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sat Nov 04, 2023 10:35 pm

I ran across this several years back. With the direction that everything is going it might be a good reference. As far as the best survival weapon, it will be one you own and have the most ammo for. But we always need to have something available that might be OUTSIDE THE BOX type of affair.

https://powersfirearmstraining.com/reso ... valist.pdf

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:19 am

horsesoldier03 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 10:35 pm https://powersfirearmstraining.com/reso ... valist.pdf

Thanks for posting this, I had lost the url. Here is his website with more information.
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http://shtfschool.com
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a dose of reality, with a main takeaway: don't run out of ammo. I imagine the gangs that are thrilled by killing would last until the last house was robbed. i think it would take sniper teams to counter them. fire-fights are stupid for the 'elderly'... but I have no experience. I pray I don't acquire any.

EG73 · Post by **EG73** » Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:29 pm

Blaine wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:13 pm
Buck Elliott wrote:
tman wrote:I LOVE my 444 94 Bigbore, but nothing beats an M4 as a survival rifle. 15 to 20 hits on an elephant is just as good as 1 hit from a 458 Lott.
There just may be something to that... Since the advent of the 5.56mm cartridge, i find Wyoming and Montana to be conspicuously devoid of wild/feral elephants.. I know a couple guys who own and shoot .458 Lott rifles, and the dearth of local, target pachyderms is weighing heavily upon them... So much so, in fact, that they have resorted to booking trips to Africa, in the past...
With my Crossman pump-up BB gun, I've kept the polar bear population depressed in the lower 48 for nearly 50 years.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xSVqLHghL ... cm9jayA%3D

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:56 pm

.
See if this link works

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/plainsm ... t4589.html