Thinking some Shocking Thoughts (Bushmaster ACR)

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:32 pm

Kirk I hear you on the bugs the buffalo gnats hatched out last week been wiping down the horses and put out the cattle rubs need to go to the feed store and pick up some sulfur salt blocks. Back on topic alot of rifles in the same caliber cuts down on packing more than one kind of ammo, everyone in my household and family has a 30-30 its hard to beat for a all around caliber and rifle. overall if I had to go up against DG or SD I wouldnt feel wanting, have taken deer and elk with a 30-30 so it works. danny

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:51 pm

I would check into your law there Kirk and see if a M1 Garand(eight shot "internal" "non detachable" clips are acceptable.
If not then you can get the 5rd clips as well.

Having Colt "black toys", a Springfield Armory National Match M1a and other types.

I have to say----------if you like a rock solid gun that has some heft(less than most of those .308 plastic shooters)you would like a fine Springfield Armory National Match M1 garand.

That would be the last ever let go from my "cold dead hands"!

People seem because you see no long mag hanging out/folding stocks/pistol grip etc. to just think (don't bother that one---it don't look bad)-----------------------------but oh how it is!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:53 pm

Each to his own SS. I learned the platform using G3s while on Liaison detail with our Battalion's Bundeswehr counterpart in the "Gap... and is largely why I put the A3 "Para" stock on mine. It is what I am comfortable with.

To date, my (post JLG) PTR has treated me quite well - every bit as well as the G3 in my FO track.

But it's all personal preference. I used the extra money saved in buying the PTR & Magazines to buy a modest lay-in of FMJ to feed it... And I don't need to worry about the corrosive primers messing up a non-exist ant gas tube.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:56 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:corrosive primers messing up a non-exist ant gas tube.

How is that relevant?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:01 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:Each to his own SS. I learned the platform using G3s while on Liaison detail with our Battalion's Bundeswehr counterpart in the "Gap... and is largely why I put the A3 "Para" stock on mine. It is what I am comfortable with.

To date, my (post JLG) PTR has treated me quite well - every bit as well as the G3 in my FO track.

But it's all personal preference. I used the extra money saved in buying the PTR & Magazines to buy a modest lay-in of FMJ to feed it... And I don't need to worry about the corrosive primers messing up a non-exist ant gas tube.

I cross trained on a Dragunov under a foreign nations SF sniper very recently, but I ain't gonna go out and buy one. And we all know 7.62x54R is an obsolete cartridge anyway right?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:02 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:corrosive primers messing up a non-exist ant gas tube.
How is that relevant?

'cause all of my Gas Fed .308 friends hate corrosive ammo with a passion, but those of us who shoot rollers really aren't all that concerned.

Just means I was able to buy more for less. That's all.

And I'd love to have a Druganov... can feed one of them for a long time too...

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:13 pm

damienph wrote:Tycer,

I believe that the original post was about selecting a semi-auto rifle to use for hunting.

I missed the hunting part. When he mentioned vehicles I saw it as shooting into them. Funny how folks read things differently.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:23 pm

This months American Rifleman posted a report on the .308 Win AR-10(Rock River Arms)LAR-8
Their tests with Factory Federal 168gr GMM BTHP ammo at 100yds was (100yds from sandbags)(5)5 shot groups with a 1-8X scope-----------------0.89 MOA

OH---and did I say it takes the plentiful cheap FN-FAL mags too!
MSRP---$1720(US dollars) and it weighs in at just about 10lbs

Looks good!

http://www.rockriverarms.com/popup.cfm? ... 8stdop.gif

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:34 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:corrosive primers messing up a non-exist ant gas tube.
How is that relevant?
'cause all of my Gas Fed .308 friends hate corrosive ammo with a passion, but those of us who shoot rollers really aren't all that concerned.

Just means I was able to buy more for less. That's all.

And I'd love to have a Druganov... can feed one of them for a long time too...

Where do you find corrosive .308?

Contrary to popular belief, corrosive primers aren't like pouring battery acid in your rifle, there is very little mercury in the primers and it's there for shelf life. The only people who have corrosive primer issues is someone who shoots a couple hundred rounds then leaves the uncleaned rifle sitting for months before cleaning. If corrosive primers were so bad, the AK/SKS/Dragunov gas piston and tubes and the gas port/blocks would corrode and fall apart.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:42 pm

madman4570 wrote:
OH---and did I say it takes the plentiful cheap FN-FAL mags too!

That's not exactly a plus. That design was originally a Bushmaster design IIRC, and had issues because the FAL magazine doesn't have feeding lips, the feed lips are part of the action.

If anything, for practical purposes, the DPMS uses the same magazine as a SR25 (original Armalite design before Stoner scaled it down and it became the AR15, and not to be confused with the current AR10 made by Armalite that uses a modified M14/M1A magazine design). The SR25 magazine is what the KAC M110 uses. It has a military cage code and is also currently the only .308 that Magpul makes a magazine for. The Remington .308 AR pattern also uses them, mostly because it's actually a DPMS.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:44 pm

Tycer wrote:
damienph wrote:Tycer,

I believe that the original post was about selecting a semi-auto rifle to use for hunting.
I missed the hunting part. When he mentioned vehicles I saw it as shooting into them. Funny how folks read things differently.

Actually Tycer, you didn't miss a thing. It was MrMurphy who mentioned "DPMS or other similar brand in .308, ...the occasional hunting trip....they'll probably do fine..." I am the one who somehow blended all that together into Kirk wanting a "black rifle" for hunting.
Have I told you I am going to be 60 on my next birthday? Sheesh.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:22 pm

WOW! A LOT of info. I need to go back and take notes! I was looking at a friends' new Rem .308 he just picked up and thinkin' how nice it felt. Didn't get to shoot it, his didn't come with sight and the scope was back-ordered. Here I was thinkin' a "new" M-1 might get put on the back burner. Maybe not so much now!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:53 pm

I guess after all this I'd be inclined to go with what I know is gonna work:

slower for sure, but well aimed

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:04 pm

Grizz wrote:I guess after all this I'd be inclined to go with what I know is gonna work:

slower for sure, but well aimed

Nice looking/feeling guns for sure.

Just wish the Mags weren't so expensive...

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:01 pm

The proprietary mags, and the stuff reasoning Ruger gives that they didn't want people to complain about the rifles reliability due to poor quality mags makes me completely ignore that rifle. Savage making a .223 that uses AR mags is a big winner.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:56 pm

Old Savage wrote:Kirk????? Say it ain't so!!!!! :shock:

I prefer the Model 88 Bushmaster. :)

i'm with you O.S.---I was shocked at first, but I see Kirk's point...I like the .308 platform as well...never owned a EBR, not really interested, but can appreciate those that due...the of course theirs Hobbie telling all of us that we should own one...all of this has me thinking... :)

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:04 pm

Always did like the Remington Pump that used AR mags...

sore shoulder wrote:The proprietary mags, and the stuff reasoning Ruger gives that they didn't want people to complain about the rifles reliability due to poor quality mags makes me completely ignore that rifle. Savage making a .223 that uses AR mags is a big winner.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:53 pm

The Remington 7615 tends to have feed issues. Even a cherrypicked one being fired by a Remington rep demoing to a department.....

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:03 pm

Did some thinking today out in the woods Kirk!

You want something reliable/fast action/plenty of power/can penetrate/accurate way out there etc.

Why heck Kirk--------------you already have it------your Winchester's

The way you shoot em/knowledge of them/reloading knowledge and supplies.

You might just be a tad disappointed bro-------but I did talk to a couple friends that have .308 Bushmasters from our club--response was (absolutely reliable/accurate/and certainly NOT junk.

I say if it feels good/floats your fancy/got the coin-----------sure grab a black toy.(try handling some more/be nice to actually try some others at a range or your place etc.if you could )

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:24 pm

MrMurphy wrote:The Remington 7615 tends to have feed issues. Even a cherrypicked one being fired by a Remington rep demoing to a department.....

Ouch. Good information.

Hopefully the Mossberg MVP doesn't suffer from the same issue. Wish they made a .308 version that uses SR25 mags.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:58 pm

I'm rethinking everything from square one, thanks to all the input I've received from this board. This decision may take months. On a semi-related note .... I had my old 38-55 at the range today, shooting at 200 yards. I'll post a range report in a few days, but I think I'm good for a head shot at 200 yards now with that 116 year-old rifle.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:18 am

sore shoulder wrote:
madman4570 wrote:
OH---and did I say it takes the plentiful cheap FN-FAL mags too!
That's not exactly a plus. That design was originally a Bushmaster design IIRC, and had issues because the FAL magazine doesn't have feeding lips, the feed lips are part of the action.

If anything, for practical purposes, the DPMS uses the same magazine as a SR25 (original Armalite design before Stoner scaled it down and it became the AR15, and not to be confused with the current AR10 made by Armalite that uses a modified M14/M1A magazine design). The SR25 magazine is what the KAC M110 uses. It has a military cage code and is also currently the only .308 that Magpul makes a magazine for. The Remington .308 AR pattern also uses them, mostly because it's actually a DPMS.

The new Colt uses the DPMS/SR25 mags also. A huge plus IMO because of the Magpul option. Fulton Armory, POF, JP Rifles and Les Baer also unless I'm mistaken. As does my Bushmaster LR-308. I still wish there was more standardization in the large frame AR scene (uppers and lowers between brands often - perhaps usually - do not mate), but it's good to see the magazine issue starting to settle a bit.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:46 am

Things are getting out of hand here - get a 94 AE and scope it. Does no one hold to tradition anymore.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:08 am

KirkD wrote:I'm rethinking everything from square one, thanks to all the input I've received from this board. This decision may take months. On a semi-related note .... I had my old 38-55 at the range today, shooting at 200 yards. I'll post a range report in a few days, but I think I'm good for a head shot at 200 yards now with that 116 year-old rifle.

Dude-------------that says it all!

I say------------------------your are where you need to be right now!
Head shots at 200yds with the good ol 38-55---------------now that ability with fine old iron (wow)!

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:17 am

sore shoulder wrote:
MrMurphy wrote:The Remington 7615 tends to have feed issues. Even a cherrypicked one being fired by a Remington rep demoing to a department.....

Ouch. Good information.

Hopefully the Mossberg MVP doesn't suffer from the same issue. Wish they made a .308 version that uses SR25 mags.

I was told at my gunshop that they wouldn't accept Magpul mags reliably. 1/2 my mag stash is Magpul. I have been able to resist temptation so far as it doesn't seem to do anything a sub-Moa AR wouldn't do already

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:26 am

Streetstar wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
MrMurphy wrote:The Remington 7615 tends to have feed issues. Even a cherrypicked one being fired by a Remington rep demoing to a department.....

Ouch. Good information.

Hopefully the Mossberg MVP doesn't suffer from the same issue. Wish they made a .308 version that uses SR25 mags.
I was told at my gunshop that they wouldn't accept Magpul mags reliably. 1/2 my mag stash is Magpul. I have been able to resist temptation so far as it doesn't seem to do anything a sub-Moa AR wouldn't do already

Most notably, it's only available in 1/9 twist. Make it available in 1/8 and 1/10 and it will cover all the bases. I really can't stand 1/9.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:36 am

1/9 isn't my favorite but it'll stabilize up to 70 grain pretty well.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:53 am

MrMurphy wrote:1/9 isn't my favorite but it'll stabilize up to 70 grain pretty well.

True. My 1/9 does not shoot 75gr well, and like a lot of others I've been migrating to that bullet weight for several years.

Remington40x · Post by **Remington40x** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:18 pm

Having recently gone through the same process of evaluation, I settled on an M1A rather than the AR platform. I liked that it was designed for the 7.62x51 cartridge from the beginning and that it was still being used in combat in both Afghanistan and Iraq, neither of which are places kind to firearms. Plus, my dealer had a used one on the shelf in near-new condition for a very good price.

I don't regret the choice.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:28 pm

The AR platform was designed for 7.62 Nato..... the AR-10. Even saw combat use in Africa. We'd already chosen the M14 and most of hte world had the FAL/G-3 so Stoner downsized it for the Army's new requirement for a smaller caliber.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:36 pm

Didn't some of those end up in South America also?

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:35 pm

Yeah, AR-10s ended up in some weird places.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:36 pm

MrMurphy wrote:Yeah, AR-10s ended up in some weird places.

French Foreign Legion apparently thought highly of them. The units manufactured in the 50's were all outsourced to a Dutch company and there are 3 categories, Sudanese, Transitional, and Portuguese. The Portuguese units apparently had the most refinements and modifications and those models were considered highly reliable by the countries that ended up with them. Fidel bought a couple hundred and Che Guivarra had his hands on a few. From what I can tell they gave the FAL and G3 a run for their money, they just never had the production numbers.

The current AR10's are not the same pattern, they are scaled up AR15 pattern, which is why they had a lot of repeat issues that were worked out in the originals, like bolt lugs shearing off, and the addition of a forward assist, go figure.

Originals can be found and go for $2000-$3000.

The current Armalite made a clone, it's just a new model AR10 with a few changes and furniture to make it look like the original.

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:35 pm

Been following this thread and enjoy the discussion. However, wouldn't availability of boolits to feed the machine be an important factor, especially in light of the current shortage?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:46 pm

With regard to the availability of ammo, I was in the local shooting store last week. They had cases of ammo all over the place, except for 223, but this is in Canada. There is certainly no shortage of 7.62 x 39 up here, nor of 7.62 x 51 or 308. I would like to reload my own, so I'll be needing brass. For boolits, I'll use my RCBS 30-30 mould 150 grains, water dropped, GC'd. I am heavily leaning to going the cheap but reliable route ..... a VZ 58 in 7.62 x 39. I've talked to several fellows in the past few days that say that theirs just keep working no matter what. It is cheap and ugly but it works.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:45 pm

The vz58 has a good record for keeping running, the Czech army has used it from 1958-now, though it's slowly being replaced by the new CZ805 in 5.56mm.

Just remember they're the only army that ever used it in large numbers, though smaller numbers ended up all over the world. Spare parts may eventually be an issue, unlike AR's or AK's.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:05 am

KirkD wrote:With regard to the availability of ammo, I was in the local shooting store last week. They had cases of ammo all over the place, except for 223, but this is in Canada. There is certainly no shortage of 7.62 x 39 up here, nor of 7.62 x 51 or 308. I would like to reload my own, so I'll be needing brass. For boolits, I'll use my RCBS 30-30 mould 150 grains, water dropped, GC'd. I am heavily leaning to going the cheap but reliable route ..... a VZ 58 in 7.62 x 39. I've talked to several fellows in the past few days that say that theirs just keep working no matter what. It is cheap and ugly but it works.

Well now you're talking a completely different animal with regards to accuracy and effective range. I'm not sure that led bullets and gas autos get along either, but I'll let someone else chime in on that since I don't know for sure. I'd really like to see you get something highly accurate like one of the FN products or one of the better large frame ARs, but if that longer range precision shooting gig is not what you had in mind, then the VZ or a nice SKS would be fantastic and a lot of fun.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:04 am

olyinaz wrote:
KirkD wrote:.... I'm not sure that led bullets and gas autos get along either, but I'll let someone else chime in on that since I don't know for sure. ...

AAAAND we're back to the "Roller Lock vs Gas Gun" debate...

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:16 am

Old Ironsights wrote:
olyinaz wrote:
KirkD wrote:.... I'm not sure that led bullets and gas autos get along either, but I'll let someone else chime in on that since I don't know for sure. ...
AAAAND we're back to the "Roller Lock vs Gas Gun" debate...

I'd feel pretty comfortable with a G3 variant as well, OI , just dont like what they do to the brass

Even a nice DSA FAL -- nobody has mentioned a FAL variant yet either - certainly not a precision firearm, but darn reliable

Out of the modern alternatives though, i would seriously be thinking FN SCAR

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:06 am

Streetstar wrote:Out of the modern alternatives though, i would seriously be thinking FN SCAR

That would be my first choice, but that is one option that is not available here in Canada.

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:23 am

I've come close to buying an AR-10 twice. One was chambered in 260rem, the other was a 24" 308. I came to the conclusion if I was gonna spend that much to carry something that heavy, I wanted a 26" octagon M94 in 38/55 or octagon M86 in 45/70 or whatever "different" caliber I found. YMMV

3leg

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:19 am

Is it possible to stock the M1A with the collapsible stock the AR15 has?

Since putting that on a shotgun I find it perfect. I need the pistol grip because of my hand issues. I need the shorter and variable LOP configuration. I like the big box magazine. I like semi-auto. I like 7.62 for a decent centerfire long range rifle round. I like piston actuation philosophically.

Is there anything that checks all those boxes, and costs less than three arms and the firstborn?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:44 am

3leggedturtle wrote:I've come close to buying an AR-10 twice. One was chambered in 260rem, the other was a 24" 308. I came to the conclusion if I was gonna spend that much to carry something that heavy, I wanted a 26" octagon M94 in 38/55 or octagon M86 in 45/70 or whatever "different" caliber I found. YMMV 3leg

Well now, that is part of my problem as well. I sold a few Winchesters this past winter in anticipation of purchasing a beaut of an original Model 1873. Several have come available. I've got the cash to purchase a very nice AR-10, but that pile of cash could also purchase a very nice Model 1873, with full octagon barrel, chambered in 44-40 and about 75% blue with a gorgeous bore. That is why I'm thinking of a cheap VZ 58 7.62 x 39 so I can still got my hands on one of those nice '73s. So many guns, so few dollars.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:06 pm

Grizz wrote:Is it possible to stock the M1A with the collapsible stock the AR15 has?

Since putting that on a shotgun I find it perfect. I need the pistol grip because of my hand issues. I need the shorter and variable LOP configuration. I like the big box magazine. I like semi-auto. I like 7.62 for a decent centerfire long range rifle round. I like piston actuation philosophically.

Is there anything that checks all those boxes, and costs less than three arms and the firstborn?

Yes. Choate makes both a folder and an AR collapsible that i believe also folds for the M1A. I know the original style folder is 275 bucks and think the collapsible is under 300. They are both mated to a Springfield Armory copy of the GI synthetic for the front half. They are nice units with a lifetime warranty. Sorry for the crappy pic. This was a SA M1A Scout. It is now in a choate folder with an ultimak rail and aimpoint T1. The irons co-witness through the aimpoint. It all works extremely well. Would not trade it for anything!

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:50 pm

There's about 3 different M14 chassis systems which add a collapsing stock, rails etc but they make an already heavy rifle 2-4lb heavier before any accessories. I'd get an 18 inch FAL, fixed stock and add DSA's rail fore-end before i did that. Better rifle in general, and lighter, handier to use.