Bake-on and other ceramic, epoxy, and metal finishes...?

[AJMD429]

My Para Ordnance has an anodized aluminum frame that has some dings and wear marks, and a steel slide that is one of the originals when they looked like they just got dipped in some black paint; it looks worse than the frame as far as wear.

I have been happy so far with the Super Blackhawk (steel) grip frame I did in CeramaCote, and the Marlin 1894 Magazine Tube, as well. However, just wanted to be sure there wasn't something I'm missing that's better.

Looking at these options (websites) for sources, and willing to consider any others:

• DuraCoat - (lots of colors, epoxy I think)
  
  DuraBake - (bake-on version, less colors)
  
  Brownell's Gun-Kote - looks like maybe ceramic-based
  
  CeraKote - looks like ceramic-based option
  
  Cerama-Coat - the ceramic-based one I have used

I mostly want durability - no chips or whatever. Lubricity is nice, and colors even better, and knowing ME, it should be sort of easy/foolproof to apply.

[7.62 Precision]

There is a lot of hype about the different finishes, with each manufacturer claiming theirs is by far the best.

For most users, the durability will be very close between the best finishes. I would go with DuraCoat, Cerakote, or KG GunKote - you will see little difference between durability between them.

Advantages of DuraCoat is that it is very forgiving to apply and does not need to be baked, so it is very flexible. You can do artwork and patterns with DuraCoat that cannot really be done with the others if you are applying them correctly. It probably has a little better resistance to chipping and dinging than Cerakote. IOt is easy to touch up. You can do some cool stuff with clear coats as well.

Cerakote is another tough finish and has better heat resistance than some other finishes, though this is not important for your application. It requires baking. It probably has a little better abrasion resistance than DuraCoat.

KG Gun-Kote also requires baking and is very durable. It tends to have a glossier sheen than the others.

For the average shooter, there will really be no noticeable difference in durability between these three. Despite what the manufacturers claim, you will still get holster wear, just much, much slower than you would with any traditional finish.

Everything is in the prep. If the prep is not done right, the end result will not be right - don't take shortcuts in the prep.

Don't coat the frame or slide rails on that pistol - it might not run if you do. Some pistols you can do this to, but stay away from it on 1911s. The rails should be lubed anyway (especially steel against aluminum) so you should not need to worry about rust there.

I prefer DuraCoat, since I do a lot of artistic-type finishes, and I have more flexibility. Below are some examples:




On pistols, I prefer a solid colours, generally, since a pistol is too small for most patterns to really look good on, though there are exceptions. Of course, black always looks good, and there are several colour combinations that look really good - I can make some recommendations if you like.
Best to coat the pistol yourself, as most of the really good coating work we see is done by individuals, not professionals. It is hard to put the amount of work required into a finish for the price most people charge, so the professionals often do not put the effort in that they should. We have re-coated a few firearms coated by professional coaters, and have had people call us about a lot more that they were unhappy with.
For what you would pay for a good finish job, you can get everything you need to do it yourself and still have money left over, and it is not hard if you have any skill at all. If you don't have the skill, it's not hard to learn.

[piller]

Very cool, and good information. Thanks.

[AJMD429]

I was just gonna do black or some dark grey, until I saw your examples. . .

Now I not only have to decide the product to use, but the COLOR. . .

[williamranks]

Saw this about 10 min ago on a BMW forum I'm a member of.
It's an epoxy kit. Might be too shiny or they may be able to tone it down for you.

http://www.g2usa.com

[7.62 Precision]

For colour ideas, look here: http://762precision.wordpress.com/custo ... two-tones/

I like black and OD or Black and Combat Green, OD and Decert Warrior Dark Earth, Magpul or Vltor Dark Earth and Cav Arms Dark Earth, OD and a Dark Earth - these are all good colour combos.

Here is info about durability: http://762precision.wordpress.com/custo ... urability/

[Mescalero]

Like that black and dark grey stealth.
Like that scheme for my long slide Llama .380 rebarreled to .32 NAA.

[Mescalero]

So masking and coating the frame rails would be acceptable from what you write?
How many mils do the different coats add to parent material, in some cases this may be benificial.
Is there any data regarding coated surfaces riding on one another?

[madman4570]

Some nice looking weapons there(cool paint)
Doc, have found the DuraCoat(extremely good,all mine flat black)

[sore shoulder]

That AR and the 1911/knives are just amazing, incredible.

[2ndovc]

I sooooo want that Zombie Mauser trench gun!!

Pretty neat stuff!

jb

[MrMurphy]

Cerakote does very well.

In the non-do-it-yourself category, Birdsong's Black-T is also an extremely durable finish.

[2571]

I sooooo want that Zombie Mauser trench gun!!

Pretty neat stuff!

jb

Bought a beater Walther PP. I want to do zombie green with red splattter. The more posts like this I read, the more I think I can do it myself.

[2ndovc]

I sent 7.62 an email from his site this morning. I have a Ruger P95 that I'd like to turn into my Zombie pistol.
I'm no artist but would gladly pay someone with that kind of talent.

Looking forward to hearing back from them.

I know some people are tired of the whole zombie thing but I've been a fan of those movies since I was a kid.
With the success of the Walking Dead and some of the recent movies I'm beside myself.


jb

[Mescalero]

7.62,
Is there special preperation required for stainless, nickle finishes?

[7.62 Precision]

So masking and coating the frame rails would be acceptable from what you write?
How many mils do the different coats add to parent material, in some cases this may be benificial.
Is there any data regarding coated surfaces riding on one another?

On all 1911s I mask the rails on both the frame and the slide. I mask them when blasting as well as they are ususally polished and I don't want to make them feel gritty by texturing the surface.

Thickness of the coats will depend on technique and what equipment you use. I use an airbrush, while most people use small HVLP sprayers. I found that while an airbrush takes a lot longer, it gives me much better control of the application, better looking results, and it may have something to do with the reports we have from some customers that our Duracoat finishes are more durable than some others' finishes using Duracoat - I don't know.

I do know that any time we have coated the rails on a 1911, whether inadvertently because the masking moved, or purposely because the frame was rusted and pitted, I was concerned about the pistol running reliably. With DuraCoat on the frame rails I have run the slide hundreds of times by hand - hours of running the slide, only to find that the surface of the finish was polished, but there was no difference in how tight it was.

It has been a long time since I have had to do it, but if the rails on a 1911 get hit, I carefully remove the DuraCoat from that spot with a set of files designed for fitting the rails on 1911 pistols. Now all of this has been with the more expensive 1911s, and I tend the think that most of the more expensive custom or semi-custom 1911s are too tight to begin with. A good basic, bottom end (price-wise) 1911 may run just fine with DuraCoat on the rails. In pistol courses, the most malfunctions we see with 1911s tends to be with the most expensive pistols.

[Mescalero]

Thank you.

[7.62 Precision]

I sooooo want that Zombie Mauser trench gun!!

Pretty neat stuff!

jb

Bought a beater Walther PP. I want to do zombie green with red splattter. The more posts like this I read, the more I think I can do it myself.

You can definitely do it yourself. However, it will be difficult to execute the blood splatter over green.

Green is the compliment of red (directly across from red on the colour wheel). Green can be used to shade red or red to shade green. Mixing the two will create a brown (theoretically it should make black, but in reality, brown). Also, the two colours can clash if values are similar. You have probably seen this when two bright complimentary colours of nearly equal value are used next to each other and almost seem to vibrate. If you just sling red paint on stuff to simulate blood, it will look like a bad 70's movie shooting. It takes a careful combining of several shades of red to look like real blood - this is what everyone is missing. This process will be much harder to get right if you are doing it over a bright green.

I never really understood the green connection with Zombies anyway. I guess when the zombie hordes are clawing at our doors we will all be painting our stuff bright green? This is why I chose to go with the battered look. Even the dents and scratches in that Mauser stock were done with DuraCoat

[7.62 Precision]

7.62,
Is there special preperation required for stainless, nickle finishes?

Duracoat works well over either, and also over chrome. I strip all oils and solvents and then blast with aluminum oxide. On plated finishes, (nickel or chrome) I am careful to prep the surface but not blast through the plating. The aluminum oxide against the chrome gives off a cool green flame in the blast cabinet.

If you don't have access to a blast cabinet, or to the right media (don't use glass bead) You can prep by hand. Lauer recommends using a green scratch pad, which will work, but I would prefer using some sandpaper or course steel wool for these finishes, and for bluing, etc. For parkerizing, it is usually not necessary.

[7.62 Precision]

Oh, from the first post, DuraBake is not necessary, nor is DuraHeat, unless you have a full-auto or are doing mag dumps.

[7.62 Precision]

No I know at least someone will stumble across this thread looking for info on how to DuraCoat an old levergun.

If you have say an original 1873 Winchester or 1893 Marlin or anything from the same time period, and you are thinking about how your friends will envy you once it is resplendent in a new Zombie Slayer or Alien Skin finish, I need to warn you that it is very difficult to finish leverguns from prior to the 1950s. I will give careful instructions for this process:

1. Find a box suitable for shipping the firearm. Carefully pack it in the box.

2. Address the box to me. The truth is that it takes specialized knowledge and equipment to deal with these old leverguns. You will not be able to pull it off yourself. You will need to ship it to me.

3. I will inspect the firearm and make sure that it is appropriate for the purpose.

5. I will coat, free of charge, a modern Marlin or Rossi levergun and send it to you. You see, an historic levergun really cannot be coated with a modern coating. It is impossible. So I will just replace it with a modern one. Do you see how kind and benevolent I am?

[sore shoulder]

[Mescalero]

Thanks for the info, have access to a blast cabinet.

[2ndovc]

Anxiously waiting for that quote for my Ruger!

jb

[AJMD429]

If I do 'DuraCoat', what special spray-equipment is needed...? It looks like I need to buy some sort of air-brush thing.

[7.62 Precision]

If I do 'DuraCoat', what special spray-equipment is needed...? It looks like I need to buy some sort of air-brush thing.

I use an airbrush. I have tried HVLP spray guns and they laid the finish down too heavy for the look I like. If the finish is laid down in light coats, it looks like it is part of the weapon - markings and corners are all sharp and clear. If the finish goes on too thick, it looks like something applied to the surface as an afterthought. Do a quick search online for DuraCoat finishers, look at their photos, and you will see what I mean.

The airbrush takes a lot more time, but the results are worth it.

I use Iwata siphon-style airbrushes, and have used Badger as well. I have to order them, since anyone who sells them locally in Alaska charges around 150% to 200% retail on the things.

I use siphon fed, since I have to work the finish around different angles of the firearm and that could be problematic with a gravity-fed airbrush.

At the low end, you can use a hobby-type external mix airbrush (in the plastic model section at your supermarket, probably) and canned air. The particles will be courser but it will work OK. The canned air is a pain and the cans will ice up, so I recommend putting the can in a bowl of water when using it to keep the temperature more stable. I have not looked at these for many years, but I suspect the airbrush would be around $25 and the cans of air maybe $9 each?

There are mid-range airbrush kits that have decent airbrushes that run in the $40-$60 range from some of the tool companies. These will work OK and need a compressor. If you have a compressor, just plumb it up to whatever standard fitting your compressor uses, and get an inline moisture filter for airbrushes. If you are doing a lot of airbrushing, this type of filter will get expensive in the long run, but for just a few firearms it is more cost effective than a more initially expensive system. If you don't have a compressor, don't buy an airbrush compressor - they are expensive and serve one purpose, and any other than the very expensive ones will wear out quickly. It is better to go to a hardware store and pick up a little compressor that you can use for filling tires and other things.

If you don't want to pick up a compressor, you can even run an airbrush from a spare tire - Lauer sells a little fitting that attaches an airbrush hose to a valve stem - you just fill the tire up a a gas station and then use it to supply air to the airbrush. I tend to think you may need several tires or several trips to refill a tire, though.

The airbrushes I prefer are professional ones that run in the $100 to $150 range ($200 to $250 if I buy them locally). They are much better to use than cheaper airbrushes. I wear parts out quickly, so the ability to replace small parts inexpensively on a $150 airbrush instead of replacing $65 airbrushes which wear out much quicker saves a lot of money.

[7.62 Precision]

Anxiously waiting for that quote for my Ruger!

jb

We are way backed up on both the quotes and the finishes due to the panic - We are dealing with hundreds of emails every day from people looking for magazines and rifles and parts. We will get to your quote, but I will send an IM as well right now.

[fordwannabe]

Hi 7.62, a question. I have a garage type compressor 220v 60 gallon tank ect ect and I use it to paint car parts and some body panels so can it be used for this applcation? I am very interested in getting a savage bolt gun done or maybe doing it myself. How do you rough up a scope for duracoating? How about a synthetic stock? Thanks for the info

[7.62 Precision]

SAcope need to be done by hand - clean off all oils (most scopes have some oils, and you would not believe how many people HEAVILY oil their scopes). Do this by hand and keep solvents away from lenses and also be careful of rubber parts, including gaskets and O-rings.

You can use sand paper to rough up the finish of the optic, and some optics have a very flat, porous anodizing, so those ones are already kind of prepped. Mask anything that should not be hit.

Your compressor is fine. You will just need to plumb it down to the airbrush hose. If you are already painting, I'm sure you are already set up to deal with moisture and have good valves to regulate the pressures. Pressure will will determine the look of the surface - less pressure can give more of a matte look and more will give a smoother look with a higher sheen. This can also be regulated by how close the airbrush is held to the surface and how it is moved.

[AJMD429]

I know this is an old thread, but the number of dinged-up or otherwise dreary and worn firearms needing re-finishing is growing in the household, and there are maybe four handguns and as many long guns I'd like to refinish. A couple I will probably just finish in whatever black or green 'flat' color that will disguise the existing wear marks, and protect them a bit from rust, but I might get brave and do a couple in two-tone or even a pattern of some sort.

From what I gather Duracoat and Durabake are "about identical" but if I do have access to an oven is there any reason NOT to prefer the seemingly-easier-to-apply (no mixing) Duracoat...?? I was thinking of just purchasing a used electric oven from the appliance rehab store down the road from my office, and putting it in the barn.

Also - what brands of airbrushes are you guys using who are doing this stuff...? I guess a siphon-fed one of 'decent' quality is in the $100-200 range...??

[Pete44ru]

.

While I don't want to be a buzzkiller, I've often wondered what effect the various coatings/platings would have on the fit/clearances/tolerances of autoloading pistols, w/o first compensating for the coating in one way or another.



.

[AJMD429]

Generally you don't apply where tolerances are too close, but they do provide protection and some degree of lubricity.

Still waiting for feedback as to airbrushes...

[7.62 Precision]

I know this is an old thread, but the number of dinged-up or otherwise dreary and worn firearms needing re-finishing is growing in the household, and there are maybe four handguns and as many long guns I'd like to refinish. A couple I will probably just finish in whatever black or green 'flat' color that will disguise the existing wear marks, and protect them a bit from rust, but I might get brave and do a couple in two-tone or even a pattern of some sort.

From what I gather Duracoat and Durabake are "about identical" but if I do have access to an oven is there any reason NOT to prefer the seemingly-easier-to-apply (no mixing) Duracoat...?? I was thinking of just purchasing a used electric oven from the appliance rehab store down the road from my office, and putting it in the barn.

Also - what brands of airbrushes are you guys using who are doing this stuff...? I guess a siphon-fed one of 'decent' quality is in the $100-200 range...??

I would recommend Duracoat. I have not used Durabake, but I prefer the looks and durability of Duracoat over any bake-on enamel I have seen. I don't bake DuraCoat, either, and that might have something to do with the better durability we get than some other finishers do, though I think it limey has more to do with prep.

I use Iwata airbrushes now, siphon-fed, but have used Badger in the past and even used a cheap plastic Testors airbrush in Iraq with canned air, with fine results.

If you do a pattern, I can cut a template for you. If you have any questions about the process, I can answer them. You are better off doing the coating yourself as it is easy and DuraCoat is very easy to work with, and it will save a LOT of money over sending them out. Just shipping can add $100 to the cost.

[7.62 Precision]

.

While I don't want to be a buzzkiller, I've often wondered what effect the various coatings/platings would have on the fit/clearances/tolerances of autoloading pistols, w/o first compensating for the coating in one way or another.

You are correct, coatings can change tolerances. We generally mask any close tolerance area, and we assume any such area will be lubed and thus protected from rust anyway.

It also depends on the particular pistol.

We rarely coat pistol barrels, since not only does it change tolerances, but it gets noticeable wear immediately and looks bad. We often don't coat bolt bodies on bolt action rifles for the same reason. We don't coat bolt lugs of faces.

Whether or not we coat frame and slide rails depends on the pistol. On most pistols, this is something we avoid.

I have received calls from many customers who got pistols or rifles back from well-known finishers with a new DuraCoat or Cerakote finish, only to find that the firearm did not function. One finisher in particular has been able to stop Glocks and ARs from functioning with improper application of coatings. I spoke to one customer who sent his rifle back the the finisher 4 times before it came back in functional condition.