45-70 Loads ?

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:42 pm

I want to work up a load for 45-70 using a 405 grain FN cast bullet and IMR 4198 powder.

My 46th adition Lyman manual only lists loads for the 420 grain cast bullet at 41.5 grains of IMR 4198 at 1737 fps.

My thought is that a starting load of 40 grains should be plenty safe with the 405 gr. bullet.
Anyone have some loads using that powder and that bullet?

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:48 pm

Pitchy

I don't have that data, but see if there's a load for a jacketed bullet of the same weight, drop 5 or 10% and work up.

This is generally considered a safe way to develop a load for that cartridge.

The check is to monitor the velocity. Often a cast bullet will be faster with the same charge for a copper bullet,
so, in general, and usually, if you load a cast bullet to a copper bullet velocity you will get there with lower pressure.

That's the theory, does that help?

Grizz

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:33 pm

Thanks Grizz.
Ok Lyman manual shows a load of 38 gr. of 4198 and a 405 JHP. at 1575 fps

The 32nd adition shows a load of 34 gr. of 4198 and a 395 gr bullet at 1540

That being said i think 35 gr. may be a better starting load.
My cast bullets cast out at around 400 grains.

Thoughts?

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:41 pm

You should be fine. No reason to get beat up, with a hotter load.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:44 pm

I'm using 43.5 grains of H4198. That was 1700-1750 in the 1895 Cowboy, a hundred less in the 1895GS, and about 1400 in the BFR.....

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:47 pm

Thanks, i`m using IMR 4198 so i think i`ll start at 35 gr. and work up from there.
Look out new Lee hand loader and range here i come.

JFE · Post by **JFE** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:05 pm

Hello Pitchy - what rifle are you going to use it in ?

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:09 pm

I've used the 34 gr of IMR 4198 and been satisfied with accuracy and power for that load. It is hotter than the black powder ballistics has you allready know. Good luck.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:28 pm

Thanks guys.
JFE, i`m shooting them in a Marlin 1895 CB, Browning 86 or a Pedersoli Sharps.

Edinct, i`ll try that load first, thanks.

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:20 pm

JMO - 40 will be fine - 1600 something I would suppose - what velocity do you want?

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:22 pm

That sounds like a responsible starting point to me. Plus, you might find it to be plenty great enough.
That's what happened with my load. I dialed it down and decided it was fab right there.

Someone on this board might have the ballistic calculator software that can work out those 405gr details...

Someone?

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:56 pm

A popular target load is 28 grs. of 4198. Can shoot it all day and never feel it. It's a Lyman starting load in the Trapdoor for the 405 jacketed bullet. Can go up to 33 grs. in the old Springfields according to Lyman.
Glenn

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:06 am

Glenn wrote:A popular target load is 28 grs. of 4198. Can shoot it all day and never feel it. It's a Lyman starting load in the Trapdoor for the 405 jacketed bullet. Can go up to 33 grs. in the old Springfields according to Lyman.
Glenn

I started out with 34 of H4198 w/405 jacketed or hard cast..about 1300fps, IIRC...what a nice load. Nice plinking load with an 1895 GS

flatnose · Post by **flatnose** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:59 am

34.5 grains IMR 4198. 405grn bear creek bullet. Winchester brass and primer. 1500+fps. 1'' groups and less at 100yds.
32.1 grains IMR 4198. 405 Western Nevada bullet with coat of alox applied by me. Winchester case and primer. 1'' group 100yds.
The above 34.5 imr load is the most accurate for the 405 remington jacketed bullet.
Year 2000 1886 winchester takedown 22'' twist. Stock sights.
Pitchy, for plain based bullets start your loads at 32grains and go up in 1 grain increments to 38 grains. Load up 4 cartridges of each. Start with the lowest loads and then check the bore after each batch. When you reach the load that leads the bore, back off a grain or two, and with a bit of fine tuning that will most likely be your most accurate load for that bullet. 45-70 is an easy cartridge to sort out.
1900fps is not pleasant, and 1750 not that much better either. At higher velocities you may need to change your name to twitchy.

Who's bullets are you using?

JACKP · Post by **JACKP** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:34 am

Pitchy, the Hogdon manual has some fantastic load for 45/70.

Jack

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:20 am

But why even bother with velocities beyond say 1500 - which isn't unpleasant at all or use a lighter bullet.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:29 am

Thanks guys, i cast my own bullets, the flat nose 405 is from a Lee mold.
Sounds like the 34 grain at 1540 is a good load and place to start. I`m looking for a good hunting load not for plinking.
I have five loaded at that and will shoot them as soon as the neighborhood wakes up.
I only shoot early in the morning after the fourth of July after everyone has kept me awake all night.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:04 am

Pitchy, I've done quit a bit of loading with a 405 cast and 4198. The all around load that I eventually settled on using Lee dippers was 3.10cc/39.2gr IMR 4198. I've loaded as high as 48gr, and ended up pulling the bullets after shooting a few, for reasons I'm sure you've guessed.

A nice little plinker load is 2.5cc/33.3gr.

Thought you might like the dipper loads as for me the dippers are a great companion to the hand press, and very, very consistent. I'm really envying that breech lock improvement on the hand press. I remember when Lee came out with that, I immediately thought how great it would be on the hand press. Was just looking at mine and lamenting the lack thereof. Looks like I'll be ordering a new breech lock handpress.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:37 am

33 gr turned out to be the most accurate cast load for my 1895SS with a 300 gr Lazer Cast 1380 fps approx. IIRC

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:49 am

Thanks guys, OS i want to stick with the 405`s as i have two molds for it.
I want the stoutest load i can get without leading.
Getting ready to fire of the first batch, shop is almost warm. fun.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:27 am

Pitchy wrote:Thanks guys, OS i want to stick with the 405`s as i have two molds for it.
I want the stoutest load i can get without leading.
Getting ready to fire of the first batch, shop is almost warm. fun.

You can push properly sized hard cast to the 2000 fps range without leading. My 45/70 bullets are sized .460 and the 425 grainers that I drove to 1963 fps don't lead. Softer bullets and smaller bullets will lead before that.

BTW, I shoot 405s in my redhawk......... it's a good all-round bullet weight.

Grizz

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:55 am

Well fellers after 25 rounds of every thing from 33 gr too 40 grains i ended up at 33.5 grains.
Any higher than than and they start leading.
So for now until i cast them harder or get a gas checked bullet that`l do.
I cast using straight wheel weights by the way.
The other issue is my eye sight, just can`t see the sights good enough, a scope or a young whipper snapper at the trigger might put them all in one hole.
Last group upper right.
Thanks for the help.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:01 pm

Very nice for off hand at 100yrds.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:03 pm

sore shoulder wrote:Very nice for off hand at 100yrds.

Ya posted before i posted bro, i corrected to say 50 yards, and from a rest.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:08 pm

That load looks good Pitchy, I'm going to try it in my Marlin1895

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:33 pm

Pitchy wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:Very nice for off hand at 100yrds.
Ya posted before i posted bro, i corrected to say 50 yards, and from a rest.

Oops.

I put a low power adjustable on my 1895GS, you might want to consider one, I really like mine. I've had some issues with my shooting eye ever since getting diesel in it while filling a tractor as a teenager. The lower 1.5x setting clears things up just right and is easy both eyes open for closer distances and I use that often when stalking for elk in timber.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:40 pm

Figured as long as i was shooting better get the 45-60 76 out, have loaded cast ammo of 405 and 300 gr.
The holes that are all over the target are the 300 grainer's, been having problems for a while with those. They are leading up the barrel terrible so must be undersized.
Tried the 405`s and they all shot in one hole basically so will switch to those which is alright as i have a mold for those.

Scrubbed the heck out of some bores also.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:22 pm

I forgot to mention that i took a old hacksaw blade and cut the notch in the rear sight deeper.
That made a big difference on that gun and can see the sights pretty clear, more light on each side of the post.
When ya can see the sights ya can put em in one ragged hole if all else is right.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:33 am

JACKP wrote:Pitchy, the Hogdon manual has some fantastic load for 45/70.

Jack

Say Jack welcome too the board, i looked on their web site but all i found was loads for jacketed bullets.
Maybe i missed something?
Thanks.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:00 pm

Cast a couple hundred 405 FN today.
The sizer luber is an old timer, i`ve had it 28 years.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:28 pm

Pitchy,

QuickLoad tells me that your load looks like this:
.459 sized 405 gr. Lee 459-405-HB (right?)
Info below assumes a bullet length of 1.010"
24" barrel .45-70, Groove Caliber .456"
COAL 2.550" (SAAMI .45-70 28k psi; but 43k allowed for newer guns)
IMR 4198, 40.0 gr., Fills 86.9% of case, burns 97.47% powder
Max pressure: 29,127psi MV: 1753fps
So - pressure probably too much for an older gun, but fine in newer ones, per QL (and given that the other information matches your situation)

The 459-405-F (.457 caliber) bullet has very similar results; I don't know which Lee bullet you are using:
29511psi, 1757fps

Warning: The "shot start pressure" as predetermined by QL for this bullet is 1160psi. Sometimes the hardness of the bullet changes the pressure required to start up the projectile, so the figures are different. But I suspect that the above info is pretty close to what you will find from a chronograph, given a fair variance for the individual rifle, temperature, and other stuff that you are ken to.

Also, for those who want to research this thread later, I would like to remind them that another excellent related thread (that you have seen and commented upon, Pitchy) is:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... 09#p579509

Thanks for your report, Pitchy.

John

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:53 pm

Thanks John, the only thing different is the bullet, it is from a Lee mold but 457-405-F

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:42 pm

Pitchy,looks like you have a winner. The original 405 carbine load was praised by Custer has being able to pass through a horse and kill the Indian behind it,so you should have all you need for the lower 48. More velocity is only needed if you scope the rifle and shoot past 100 yards. Eyes has old has ours the load will shoot plenty flat at ranges we are dangerous at.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:55 pm

Pitchy wrote:Thanks John, the only thing different is the bullet, it is from a Lee mold but 457-405-F

Pretty close; PM sent with corrections!

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:03 pm

Great info thanks

Yep my load is right close too 1500 fps, just right, kill mighty good.

JFE · Post by **JFE** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:52 pm

I assume you will want to use the loads in all your 45/70 rifles, however I am not sure how strong the Sharps action is. The other two are quite strong and can take any sensible load for a levergun. Just be aware that the barrel dimensions for your 3 45/70 rifles will likely be quite different. I've slugged a couple of the Japanese 45/70 barrels and they were quite tight (both were around 0.457) and Marlin barrel dimensions vary quite a bit (mine is 0.4585).

If you are interested in a good GC mould then pretty hard to go past RCBS's 45-405 FNGC mould.

Here's a link to some 45/70 cast load data, which includes accuracy data. There is no IMR-4198 data there but it is close to Reloader 7 in burning rate, though you still need to work up your loads.

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570cast.htm

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:59 pm

Thanks for that info Sir.

FatJackDurham · Post by **FatJackDurham** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:31 pm

Pitchy, I too loaded up and fired some 45-70 this weekend. I had results similar to yours, so my eyes must be proper fooked as well.

I found with 300 grain and 350 grain I had failures to fire, extreme speed variations, tumbling and worse.

I fired up to 1600 and 1700 and had very little leading, none at all in the Marlin. But I rarely had better accuracy at higher speeds.

I shot my 405 grain loads at 34 and 35, but I am interested to see that you thought 33.5 was the best for that load. I'll try that. I am using H4198, not IMR. At 34 grains, in the Springfield I got a 1 inch group at 50 yards.

Are you using dacron filler?

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:23 pm

The 33.5 grain load came together, weird how such a little amount of change in the charge make such a difference.
I don`t us any filler in my 45-70 or 45-60 and haven`t had any problems yet with the 405 bullets.
I did have some fail to fire with the 300 grain bullets in the 45-60 a while back when loading to light but after bumping up the charge have not had a problem.
Bore leading was a big issue with the 300 grain bullets in my rifle which of coarse ruins accuracy in a hurry.
I`m pretty happy now with the 405`s and now am using IMR4198 in, 35 Rem, 30-30, 45-70 and 45-60

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:10 am

I did have some fail to fire with the 300 grain bullets in the 45-60 a while back when loading to light but after bumping up the charge have not had a problem.

After further thought the fail to fire issues were from using Reloader7 powder.
Apparently it is case more sensitive.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:36 am

Failure to fire with reduced smokeless powder loads are possibly due to lack of filler. Some of my older manuals with BP level loads using modern powder specify use of filler. 4198, 3031 and RL7 in particular.

For instance these 45-70 loads using Lyman data for 322gr cast require use of a fiber wad

4198- 33.5gr

3031- 47gr

RL7- 50gr

So if you were using RL7 powder charges anywhere in the 30gr range in a 45-60 with a 300 gr bullet you can see the issue.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:40 am

I haven`t had any issues using IMR 4198 to date.
Also i added some Linotype to the mix to harden up the bullets some.

I see the 322 grain bullet is a shorter bullet than the 405 which would leave more air space in the case.
The 405 bullet leaves far less space.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:08 am

I have not had any problem using roughly the same load as you Pitchy.

My prior post was mainly in reference to the fellow using reduced RL7 loads. From everything I recall RL7 likes to be loaded hot.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:14 am

Point well taken bro and as i said i had problems with the 300 grain bullet and a light load in the 45-60.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:33 am

Pitchy I wish Malamute was around, he has reduced loads in 45-70 pretty well perfected and could probably give some good insight here. I have a bunch of 350 gr cast someone gave me that I need to load up for my son as light plinkers. Thinking about digging around in wife's craft stuff for some filler.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:41 am

As i mentioned earlier i`m not really looking for to light of load.
I might end up bumping the load up a little yet maybe in that 36 IMR 4198 grain range which would put it in the 1600 fps area.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:59 am

Pitch in reviewing loads we have tested in Cowboy an 1895SS rifles 400 gr bullets yielded a much more consistent velocity than lighter bullets. 35 gr was a sweet spot with the 430 gr bullet in the Cowboy - 1545 fps with a spread of only about 20 fps. YMMV of course.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:29 pm

Old Savage wrote:Pitch in reviewing loads we have tested in Cowboy an 1895SS rifles 400 gr bullets yielded a much more consistent velocity than lighter bullets. 35 gr was a sweet spot with the 430 gr bullet in the Cowboy - 1545 fps with a spread of only about 20 fps. YMMV of course.

Yepper OS ole pal, agree and think i`m in good shape with the 33.5 load with the 405.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:37 pm

Pitch - I agree on the 33.5 load - great results there.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:57 pm

Well fellers i took a target out to 100 yards and shot three shots with the Marlin CB . I only rested the rifle on a old wood stool with a piece of foam on it.
The first two shots felt good but i new i jerked the third.
I`m real happy with the 33.5 grain load of IMR 4198 and 405 grain FP bullet.