How many is enough?

[Old Savage]

Five 38s and he got up and drove off, what if there had been two or three of them. 6 shots was not enough to stop him.

http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/georgi ... mes-28947/

[J Miller]

She fired 6, hit him 5 times in the face and neck and he still had the gumption to get to his car and drive off.

I applaud the lady. Now, her husband needs to buy her a bigger gun, or at least some better ammo.
That guy should have been DRT.

Joe

[jnyork]

The .38 did exactly what it needed to do: stop the threat.

[JerryB]

I think she did a fine job of taking care of her family!!!

[Griff]

The .38 did exactly what it needed to do: stop the threat.

+1. It is one of those calibers that's location sensitive.

[92&94]

I was wondering about that too... got to think that they are including a nicked ear and one through the cheek as head shots. I don't know everything, but I would think a single .38 to the cranium at close range would pretty well finish the job.

However, she did manage to neutralize the threat and saved her kids, 6 to the chest would have just been icing on the cake, saving judicial $$$ as well. She did well, icing or no.

[Nath]

Of course the up shot (no pun,,,,,) is he did not leave a bloody mess to clean up, I mean it is nice when they cart themselves off, no?

N.

[Nath]

It is interesting that her shots may of gone where she was looking, his face! I should think it is hard to focus on the torso when face to face with a perp like that!

N.

[Old Savage]

Information from a news cast said he is being treated for wounds to liver, lungs and another organ. Can't agree on the 38 being adequate here to do what you want done. Who knows what this guy was on. There have been reported cases of multiple shots from a 10 Auto not "stopping" things. You would have to say that she with this tool achieved a cessation of hostilities.

[madman4570]

Five 38s and he got up and drove off, what if there had been two or three of them. 6 shots was not enough to stop him.

http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/georgi ... mes-28947/

Thats why won't own a .38
Have to expect(at least be ready for)all bad encounters the perp being on some new fad (superman)dope drug.
Many are even wearing now bulletproof vests.
.45 ACPs just bounch off those(when using any decent defense ammo)and a .357 or .40S&W (almost gets through)
Do yourself a favor----use a Glock 20(with a 6" Lone Wolf SS match barrel)and use Underwood ammo)all the guys I know that have tested them against (vests) the 10mm---------- they seem to get through???????

Only weighs 27ozs and the 10mm almost always stops the threat.Impact at about 2" below the Adam's Apple from everything I hear turns body to to be about as useful as jelly!

Only handgun from now on for me!

[92&94]

So how does one get wounds to the liver, lungs, and another organ with five shots to the face/neck? He'd have to be coming up some very steep stairs I guess, shots going through the lower face and into the neck and torso from there. If that were the case her grouping is very good, amazing nothing hit his spine.

[madman4570]

See video at the 5 min,50 sec mark!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixnTDXg9eLs

[Old Savage]

She was hiding in a closet, he opened the door. I would suspect the initial reporting may not have included all the facts on the hits.

[92&94]

She was hiding in a closet, he opened the door. I would suspect the initial reporting may not have included all the facts on the hits.

Yeah, reporting hasn't been consistent, I've heard crawlspace, attic, and now closet, and still no idea where the guy was actually hit. Face or torso? Can't expect to much of mere reporters I guess, many of them don't seem to know much about gramar, why would I expect them to know much about anything else

[cshold]

Removed

[gamekeeper]

My January copy of American Rifleman has a story in "the armed citizen" of a jeweler that shot a robber several times with a .38 and got severely beaten when the robbers tried to take his gun. One suspect was taken into custody after seeking treatment for several bullet wounds.

[TedH]

Location, location, location.

But that being said, she got done what needed to be done. Protected herself and her children.

[KirkD]

Many are even wearing now bulletproof vests.
.45 ACPs just bounch off those(when using any decent defense ammo)and a .357 or .40S&W (almost gets through)
Do yourself a favor----use a Glock 20(with a 6" Lone Wolf SS match barrel)and use Underwood ammo)all the guys I know that have tested them against (vests) the 10mm---------- they seem to get through???????

I watched the video that another fellow suggested and noticed that the vest completely stopped the 357, the .40 S&W and the 45 ACP. That being the case, it doesn't matter whether the bullet bounced off or almost made it through. What does matter is that momentum is always conserved, which means that the entire momentum of the bullet would be transferred to the perp's body for all three calibers. In other words, all the perp would feel is a blow to the body if he were wearing a similar vest. So the question becomes how hard a blow would the perp feel?

I got out my Winchester ammo catalogue and did some calculations to compare factory ammo:

357: 158 grains at 1,235 fps delivers 27.9 foot-pounds of momentum on impact

40 S&W: 180 grains at 990 fps delivers 25.4 foot-pounds of momentum on impact

45 ACP: 230 grains at 835 fps delivers 27.4 foot-pounds of momentum on impact

45 Colt: 255 grains at 860 fps delivers 31.3 foot-pounds of momentum on impact

10 mm: 175 grains at 1,290 fps delivers 32.2 foot-pounds of momentum on impact

38 special: 158 grains at 755 fps delivers 17.0 foot-pounds of momentum on impact (pathetic)

Note: This comparison is only meaningful for calculating the size of the blow a perp would experience if he was wearing a bullet proof vest and none of the bullets penetrated. All comparisons go out the window if he isn't wearing a vest, because other factors come into play such as expansion, bullet diameter, etc. Also, certain types of bullets are designed to penetrate vests, and others do it because of their sheer momentum, so the 10 mm and the 45 Colt and 308 might/will do it due to momentum, although the 45 Colt is wider so it's force is more spread out on the Kevlar so it might not do it.

I should add that just because a bullet bounces off means nothing; it is the momentum delivered to the body that counts if it does not penetrate. For example, I've been told that a 12 Gauge slug might bounce off too, but not before pushing that vest most of the way through the perp's torso. A 1 oz slug fired from a 2 & 3/4" 12 Ga cartridge at 1,600 fps delivers 100 foot-pounds of rib-cracking, sternum-crushing momentum on impact. So even if it it bounces off your vest, it's the Pearly Gates if you get nailed by one of those (unless you got plates to spread out the impact).

Regardless, a 38 special is not looking very good no matter what.

[Old Savage]

If this woman had been the teacher at Sandy Hook the children might well have lived, even with the 38.

[madman4570]

Many are even wearing now bulletproof vests.
.45 ACPs just bounch off those(when using any decent defense ammo)and a .357 or .40S&W (almost gets through)
Do yourself a favor----use a Glock 20(with a 6" Lone Wolf SS match barrel)and use Underwood ammo)all the guys I know that have tested them against (vests) the 10mm---------- they seem to get through???????

I watched the video that another fellow suggested and noticed that the vest completely stopped the 357, the .40 S&W and the 45 ACP. That being the case, it doesn't matter whether the bullet bounced off or almost made it through. What does matter is that momentum is always conserved, which means that the entire momentum of the bullet would be transferred to the perp's body for all three calibers. In other words, all the perp would feel is a blow to the body if he were wearing a similar vest. So the question becomes how hard a blow would the perp feel?

I got out my Winchester ammo catalogue and did some calculations to compare factory ammo:

357: 158 grains at 1,235 fps delivers 27.9 foot-pounds of momentum on impact

40 S&W: 180 grains at 990 fps delivers 25.4 foot-pounds of momentum on impact

45 ACP: 230 grains at 835 fps delivers 27.4 foot-pounds of momentum on impact

45 Colt: 255 grains at 860 fps delivers 31.3 foot-pounds of momentum on impact

10 mm: 175 grains at 1,290 fps delivers 32.2 foot-pounds of momentum on impact

38 special: 158 grains at 755 fps delivers 17.0 foot-pounds of momentum on impact (pathetic)

Note: This comparison is only meaningful for calculating the size of the blow a perp would experience if he was wearing a bullet proof vest and none of the bullets penetrated. All comparisons go out the window if he isn't wearing a vest, because other factors come into play such as expansion, bullet diameter, etc. Also, certain types of bullets are designed to penetrate vests, and others do it because of their sheer momentum, so the 10 mm and the 45 Colt and 308 might/will do it due to momentum, although the 45 Colt is wider so it's force is more spread out on the Kevlar so it might not do it.

I should add that just because a bullet bounces off means nothing; it is the momentum delivered to the body that counts if it does not penetrate. For example, I've been told that a 12 Gauge slug might bounce off too, but not before pushing that vest most of the way through the perp's torso. A 1 oz slug fired from a 2 & 3/4" 12 Ga cartridge at 1,600 fps delivers 100 foot-pounds of rib-cracking, sternum-crushing momentum on impact. So even if it it bounces off your vest, it's the Pearly Gates if you get nailed by one of those (unless you got plates to spread out the impact).

Regardless, a 38 special is not looking very good no matter what.

I am getting 1738fps with 135gr Underwood Ammo out of the Glock 20 with 6" Lone Wolf barrel.
That is 905 ftlbs
Absolutely crazy power for a semi
Every time we have tested this round on a vest-------------easy pass through.
Yet our hot 125gr loads with a 6" Ruger Vaquero with same type bullet-------not
That 10mm just seems to hit harder at everything we shoot!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdB8yo085Sw

[DBW]

If this woman had been the teacher at Sandy Hook the children might well have lived, even with the 38.

Exactly! And we'd not be facing gunicide...

[Hobie]

I am of the opinion that the news report is wrong and/or incomplete. The most important thing is that he tried and she stopped him. The kids didn't have to crawl out over a dead body. It might not be what WE would have wanted. I think it is as good as a result as it could have been.

[KirkD]

I am getting 1738fps with 135gr Underwood Ammo out of the Glock 20 with 6" Lone Wolf barrel.
That is 905 ftlbs

135 grains at 1,738 fps delivers 33.5 foot pounds of momentum if the bullet is completely stopped in the vest (which it might not be). That 905 figure must be energy? Either way, that sounds like an awesome bullet to be hit with at that speed. About twice the momentum of a 38 Special.

On the other hand, a hot loaded Colt 45 putting a 250 grain bullet out the barrel at 1,150 fps delivers 41 foot pounds of momentum.

[Old Savage]

Think you mean ft/lbs.

[KirkD]

I think it is ft-pounds since momentum=mass x velocity

[BobM]

I am of the opinion that the news report is wrong and/or incomplete. The most important thing is that he tried and she stopped him. The kids didn't have to crawl out over a dead body. It might not be what WE would have wanted. I think it is as good as a result as it could have been.

News reports are almost always wrong or at best incomplete. I think Hobie is right about the end result.
That being said if I was her husband I'd be getting her a higher capacity pistol, or at the very least top of the line 38 Special ammo

[92&94]

ft-lbs is a unit of kinetic energy
slug-ft/sec is a unit of momentum

1 slug = 32.2lbs/32.2ft/s^2

madman4570 is talking about the KE of his 10mm set up

Devide KirkD's figures by 32.2 and you will have slug-ft/sec

For a proper comparison, its easy enough to comare the same units of either KE or momentum using the figures given

Bullet mass in slugs = #gr/7000/32.2
KE=0.5*mass*velocity^2
I come up with 200 ft-lbs using KirkD's figures for 38 special

Momentum for the 10mm using madman4570's figures is:
p = mass*velocity = 1.04 slug-ft/sec
38 special (again using KirkD's figures)
p = 17.0/32.2 = 0.5279 slug-ft/sec

All of this is a bit pedantic, sorry about that
Not trying to put anyone down, just demonstrate that we are talking about two different things here.

If one prefers to ignore the distinction between mass and weight, it doesn't matter much as the relation is linear:
10mm --> 33.52 lb-ft/sec
38 spec --> 17.0 lb-ft/sec

[KirkD]

92&94 is right. My units for momentum should be foot-pounds/sec rather than just foot-pounds. As he points out, foot-pounds are the units for energy, not momentum. I tend to put more weight on momentum than energy, as not all the energy of the bullet is transferred to the target in terms of damage; it can be dissipated in various ways, whereas momentum is always conserved. On the other hand, some fellows prefer energy. My own opinion is that kinetic energy became the standard way to compare cartridges when the higher velocity smokeless round came into effect. They actually had lower momentum than some of the old, heavier, slower bullets, but higher energy, so it was good marketing to use the energy figures rather than the momentum figures. This is why some of the heavier but slower bullets will give deeper penetration for the same type and construction of bullet than some of the lighter but faster ones with higher energy. One cannot ignore energy, however. In real life, both momentum and energy are factors.

[Nath]

I personaly, don't pay much heed to energy figures, it is abused in the gun world for marketing, mis-leading and plain old egoism (is that a word/term ).

No one knows (do they?) what slug was used! So many slug types available in 38 and the lady in question may of just had the worst loading possible!

If a 38 is no use why is it still so popular?

Going off energy figures is folly, an air gun would not take small game based on their tiny performance figures but they do. Interestingly there are air gun pellets I won't use on certain quarry species and vice versa!

If this lady had centered his noggin he would now be awaiting on God irrespective of energy levels.

Ft/lbs are only of use when torquing bolts down IMO.

Rant over

N.

[Sixgun]

Read one of MrMurphy's posts about the raghead that was hit 4 times from a MaDeuce 50 bmg and the guy continued to reach for his rpg.

[92&94]

I agree there is little point to quoting figures without understanding of what they describe or what other variables come into play. Properly placed even a .22 short would likely have done the job, thanks to those other variables rather than it's typical ballistic properties.

Regarding the comparison between rounds, I don't think it matters much whether one looks at KE or p - look at the math and both figures are telling you the same thing. KE looks bigger due to the squared velocity term, but that's all it is, a bigger number. I find KE an easier concept to grasp, but that's just me.

Either figure would be useful for determining if any particular bullet would knock down a rigid target of known mass at known distance. Applied to "stopping power" neither is really much more useful than "heavy bullet moving fast" vs. "heavier bullet moving faster"

[Ysabel Kid]

She fired 6, hit him 5 times in the face and neck and he still had the gumption to get to his car and drive off.

I applaud the lady. Now, her husband needs to buy her a bigger gun, or at least some better ammo.
That guy should have been DRT.

Joe

+1 on all counts

[Nath]

Going off on a tangent, how about a 22mag revolver for this gal' next time?

N

[Ji in Hawaii]

Going off on a tangent, how about a 22mag revolver for this gal' next time?

N

I think an 8 shot 22 mag J-frame clone Taurus model 941 would have taken care of business just as well maybe with better shot placement.

[Mescalero]

I have one of those in blue.

[Blaine]

Inside my home, I have 12ga, 30wcf, .22, .38spc +P, a couple .45acp..All loaded and ready..if I leave the house, an LCP, or AirWeight goes with me. I happen to prefer vest pocket accessibility. If'n you don't have it on you, it won't do you any good under the truck seat