"It's a Traaaaap!!!" (Fell into another "Trap"!)
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"It's a Traaaaap!!!" (Fell into another "Trap"!)
<< Updated pix and report added May 2014 >>
No, actually, it's a Range Report ! ! !
The scary thing is, I'll bet there's a half dozen or so forum members who are gung-ho Star Wars fans and will know the name of the "fish-faced Admiral or General" who uttered those famous words in the subject line...
Anyway, in my case, it's a Trapdoor that I'm talking about! I got to spend some quality time at the range with my twin brother yesterday. While he fooled around shooting 1" groups -- offhand -- at 25 yards with a replica 1650s Matchlock that has no rifling or rear sight (pretty impressive, I must admit), I got to put 40 rounds down range using my Uberti Trapdoor Carbine -- having lots of fun and making lots of smoke! I'd only plinked with this carbine before, which was fun, but yesterday I wanted to shoot for groups and start load development.
I'm pretty pleased with the case colors of my Trapdoor, as I think she's got more actual "color" (versus shades of mottled grays and blues) as compared to most Italian case-coloring that I've seen before. The funny thing is, and maybe I shouldn't admit this, but the "saddle ring" in the picture is actually a rubber o-ring of about the right thickness and diameter. It fools many folks who took a look at the carbine, but for me it keeps the ring from banging up the wood or rattling against the bar (just in case I take it out deer hunting some day). That might be an unusual "upgrade" for a Trapdoor Carbine, but hey, it works for me. I used 55 grains (volume) of 3F 777 for powder and didn't swab between shots, which is how I use the 777 in my .45 caplock as well. My first 20 shots were using 300 gr flat base gas-checked bullets from M&P Cast Bullets in Brattleboro VT, sized to 0.457". Those are easier on the shoulder, but the groups weren't too promising. So my next 20 shots were M&P's 350 gr FPBB sized to 0.458"; the extra length and diameter might have helped these stabilize better, as even without cleaning between shots, I started to get some pretty decent groups at 50 yards. Now keep in mind, this isn't a bench gun and the barley corn front sight (like an upside-down triangle) isn't conducive to the ultimate in accuracy, nor is the short barrel and sight radius, but I'm pretty happy with this group -- which was the last group. Not too shabby after firing 37 other smoky rounds, and it is "Minute of Indian", and I think it shows great promise. My next attempts at loads will be with that same bullet, but using 2F instead of 3F 777 for 10 or 20 rounds, and the next lot might add a felt wad or a little bit of corn meal over the powder. just so there's no air space. (I've read that 777 powder does not work well when it's overly compressed, but I do want it packed well.) Next, I thought I'd run through how I handle the dirty brass after firing the 777 loads at the range, just because some of you might be interested. I bring a windshield-washer fluid bottle half full of warm water and some dish detergent with me to the range. After each shot, I plunk the brass into the jug. That's it, there they stay until I get home. I shake it some once all the brass are in there, and the water does start to turn black. Once I get home, I dump the brass out into the kitchen sink (as SWMBO was not home ) and you can see how clean the outside of the cases are, with no scrubbing yet. My next step is to use the Lee .45-70 hand tools to deprime the cases, then back into the jug they go for another few shakes with warm water and detergent. While the cases are pretty clean already, the primer pockets aren't yet... There are many other tools to use, but I find it just as easy to spin this extra screwdriver blade around in the pockets to clean them up some. Then I use a .45 rifle brush on a short handle to brush the inside of each case a few times. It was tough to get a good pix of the brass, but here's the inside of the cases after they've soaked all day and been brushed out. I think the dark spots you see are shadows, as I haven't observed any nasty fouling or corrosion on any of the .45-70 brass. Then I rinse the brass in hot water and wrap them up in one of SWMBO's dish towels and get them pretty dry. I usually have a backlog of other brass to clean anyhow, so I ran those through my regular routine of walnut shells for 1 hour followed by corn cob (with polish) for 45 minutes along with some .32 and .357 Mag brass, and as you'd expect they come out nice and shiny. So now they're all ready to be loaded, and I get to do this all over again! Gee gang, now I'm thinking that I just might load up those 350 gr Trapdoor loads "as is" and take her out in the woods for deer later this week... Whether I see one or not -- and hopefully it won't be 300 yards out if i do -- it just might be a lot of fun to carry this "old" smokepole in the deer woods for a few hours. She is a "thumper" for sure -- on both ends!
Tight groups!
Old No7
No, actually, it's a Range Report ! ! !
The scary thing is, I'll bet there's a half dozen or so forum members who are gung-ho Star Wars fans and will know the name of the "fish-faced Admiral or General" who uttered those famous words in the subject line...
Anyway, in my case, it's a Trapdoor that I'm talking about! I got to spend some quality time at the range with my twin brother yesterday. While he fooled around shooting 1" groups -- offhand -- at 25 yards with a replica 1650s Matchlock that has no rifling or rear sight (pretty impressive, I must admit), I got to put 40 rounds down range using my Uberti Trapdoor Carbine -- having lots of fun and making lots of smoke! I'd only plinked with this carbine before, which was fun, but yesterday I wanted to shoot for groups and start load development.
I'm pretty pleased with the case colors of my Trapdoor, as I think she's got more actual "color" (versus shades of mottled grays and blues) as compared to most Italian case-coloring that I've seen before. The funny thing is, and maybe I shouldn't admit this, but the "saddle ring" in the picture is actually a rubber o-ring of about the right thickness and diameter. It fools many folks who took a look at the carbine, but for me it keeps the ring from banging up the wood or rattling against the bar (just in case I take it out deer hunting some day). That might be an unusual "upgrade" for a Trapdoor Carbine, but hey, it works for me. I used 55 grains (volume) of 3F 777 for powder and didn't swab between shots, which is how I use the 777 in my .45 caplock as well. My first 20 shots were using 300 gr flat base gas-checked bullets from M&P Cast Bullets in Brattleboro VT, sized to 0.457". Those are easier on the shoulder, but the groups weren't too promising. So my next 20 shots were M&P's 350 gr FPBB sized to 0.458"; the extra length and diameter might have helped these stabilize better, as even without cleaning between shots, I started to get some pretty decent groups at 50 yards. Now keep in mind, this isn't a bench gun and the barley corn front sight (like an upside-down triangle) isn't conducive to the ultimate in accuracy, nor is the short barrel and sight radius, but I'm pretty happy with this group -- which was the last group. Not too shabby after firing 37 other smoky rounds, and it is "Minute of Indian", and I think it shows great promise. My next attempts at loads will be with that same bullet, but using 2F instead of 3F 777 for 10 or 20 rounds, and the next lot might add a felt wad or a little bit of corn meal over the powder. just so there's no air space. (I've read that 777 powder does not work well when it's overly compressed, but I do want it packed well.) Next, I thought I'd run through how I handle the dirty brass after firing the 777 loads at the range, just because some of you might be interested. I bring a windshield-washer fluid bottle half full of warm water and some dish detergent with me to the range. After each shot, I plunk the brass into the jug. That's it, there they stay until I get home. I shake it some once all the brass are in there, and the water does start to turn black. Once I get home, I dump the brass out into the kitchen sink (as SWMBO was not home ) and you can see how clean the outside of the cases are, with no scrubbing yet. My next step is to use the Lee .45-70 hand tools to deprime the cases, then back into the jug they go for another few shakes with warm water and detergent. While the cases are pretty clean already, the primer pockets aren't yet... There are many other tools to use, but I find it just as easy to spin this extra screwdriver blade around in the pockets to clean them up some. Then I use a .45 rifle brush on a short handle to brush the inside of each case a few times. It was tough to get a good pix of the brass, but here's the inside of the cases after they've soaked all day and been brushed out. I think the dark spots you see are shadows, as I haven't observed any nasty fouling or corrosion on any of the .45-70 brass. Then I rinse the brass in hot water and wrap them up in one of SWMBO's dish towels and get them pretty dry. I usually have a backlog of other brass to clean anyhow, so I ran those through my regular routine of walnut shells for 1 hour followed by corn cob (with polish) for 45 minutes along with some .32 and .357 Mag brass, and as you'd expect they come out nice and shiny. So now they're all ready to be loaded, and I get to do this all over again! Gee gang, now I'm thinking that I just might load up those 350 gr Trapdoor loads "as is" and take her out in the woods for deer later this week... Whether I see one or not -- and hopefully it won't be 300 yards out if i do -- it just might be a lot of fun to carry this "old" smokepole in the deer woods for a few hours. She is a "thumper" for sure -- on both ends!
Tight groups!
Old No7
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Last edited by Old No7 on Wed May 14, 2014 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Freedom and the Second Amendment... One cannot exist without the other." © 2000 DTH
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Thanks for the info and pictures. I have got to start looking at the Ubertis. I keep bumping up against comments on them in multiple places.
Doesn't the windshield wiper fluid have ammonia in it? Is that an issue with the brass cases?
Doesn't the windshield wiper fluid have ammonia in it? Is that an issue with the brass cases?
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
... the name of the "fish-faced Admiral...
That would be Admiral Ackbar.
How easily we forget those who fight for freedom.
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Awesome rifle. Those trapdoors seem like a lot of fun and they look really strong. They should be stronger than a rolling block if the metal is up to it. Or are they?
Grizz
Grizz
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
The fluid is in my SUV -- I'm just using the jug with water & dish detergent.wecsoger wrote:"Doesn't the windshield wiper fluid have ammonia in it? Is that an issue with the brass cases?"
Good question though, as the ammonia would be a concern on brass.
Old No7
"Freedom and the Second Amendment... One cannot exist without the other." © 2000 DTH
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Brasso has ammonia in it.Old No7 wrote:The fluid is in my SUV -- I'm just using the jug with water & dish detergent.wecsoger wrote:"Doesn't the windshield wiper fluid have ammonia in it? Is that an issue with the brass cases?"
Good question though, as the ammonia would be a concern on brass.
Old No7
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First
Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Most Windex type products have removed the ammonia, it isn't "green" enough...
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
- 2ndovc
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Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Cool!
Love the Trapdoors!!
1873, 1883, SRC along with my Dad's Winchester '86. Can't have enough 45-70s!
jb
Love the Trapdoors!!
1873, 1883, SRC along with my Dad's Winchester '86. Can't have enough 45-70s!
jb
jasonB " Another Dirty Yankee"
" Tomorrow the sun will rise. Who knows what the tide could bring?"
" Tomorrow the sun will rise. Who knows what the tide could bring?"
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
I do not believe trapdoors are considered stronger than rolling blocks. Rolling blocks were commonly built in 7X57 Spanish, and even 8X50R Lebel during WWI. I don't think anyone would do that, even with a modern replica, on a trapdoor action.
Not to say I don't admire the trapdoor. I do. It is still an older system though, meant for lower pressure cartridges.
I always thought it would be fun to make a modern replica carbine in 20 gague shotgun chamberig, with a rifled barrel, for slugs or round ball. To bad I'm not a gun builder.
Not to say I don't admire the trapdoor. I do. It is still an older system though, meant for lower pressure cartridges.
I always thought it would be fun to make a modern replica carbine in 20 gague shotgun chamberig, with a rifled barrel, for slugs or round ball. To bad I'm not a gun builder.
- Panzercat
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Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Door.
...Proud owner of the 11.43×23mm automatic using depleted Thorium rounds.
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Old No. 7 - This is an excellent report. And, as one who likes his brass clean enough to eat off of - - I appreciate it.
I don't want to divert your thread with the old "clean brass, or dirty brass ... which do you prefer" business. It is definitely a personal choice. However, there is one extremely functional aspect to having very clean brass : you're much likely to waste your time on a case which is split when you can see this right away. I've caught a bunch like this, and it's nice to be able to spot the flaw and just chunk the case at the start of the loading session.
Nice rifle ! And great thread !! - DixieBoy
I don't want to divert your thread with the old "clean brass, or dirty brass ... which do you prefer" business. It is definitely a personal choice. However, there is one extremely functional aspect to having very clean brass : you're much likely to waste your time on a case which is split when you can see this right away. I've caught a bunch like this, and it's nice to be able to spot the flaw and just chunk the case at the start of the loading session.
Nice rifle ! And great thread !! - DixieBoy
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Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Very good! I do the same with my BP brass. But, usually only at the end of the day before I leave the range. So... my brass has a bit of time before it sees water. It seldom gets that clean. And I deprime before it goes into the solution. After washing and rinsing, it gets laid out on a paper towel, and put in the oven for about 20 minutes @ 250ºF. Dry, even if stained. I think the difference is I use Goex, not 777.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
-
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Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Old No. 7, your post just made me realize I have not yet shot the Model 1888 ramrod-bayonet rifle I bought from Al Frasca last summer. I have a box of loads made up with a lightly compressed case full of Goex FFg and the Lyman 457125 "gummint" boolit.
Would love to hear more about your brother's matchlock!
By the way, Mike Venturino suggests using Windex with Vinegar for cleaning BPCR cases. I always buy a bottle when I find it.
Would love to hear more about your brother's matchlock!
By the way, Mike Venturino suggests using Windex with Vinegar for cleaning BPCR cases. I always buy a bottle when I find it.
-
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Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Great lore and pix, Old No. 7. Thanks!
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Excellent post sir!
Mike Johnson,
"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot
"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot
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Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
I just add a little (1/4 cup) vinegar to my brass cleaning water. Since black powder fouling is basic the acetic acid neutralizes it.
Nice report, thanks.
Nice report, thanks.
M. M. Wright, Sheriff, Green county Arkansas (1860)
Currently living my eternal life.
NRA Life
SASS
ITSASS
Currently living my eternal life.
NRA Life
SASS
ITSASS
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
Well, I had some fun with that l'il Trapdoor Carbine, but the truth is when I got that one -- what I really wanted was an Officer's Model with the tang sight and checkering.
I finally found one at a really decent price (the guy over at Cabela's must have been in a rush to get out the door, or been focused on black/plastic rifles), so I quickly grabbed it -- and then ended up selling off the Carbine for +30% more than I paid for it!
Anyway, without any further delays, here are some pix of the newest Trapdoor in my stable.
This one is the 100th Anniversary model for H&R, which I am OK with, as I like the old H&R top-break revolvers: I really like the checkering and tang sight that the Officer's Model provides: And the engraving on all metal parts, plus the tiger-striped case-hardening isn't too bad to look at either: Oh, and you know the "pewter nose cap" that you see in the photo? Surprise! It's silver-painted wood, that has even been carved on the bottom to look like engraving was done in the "pewter". My late father always used to say "Step back 3 feet and see how she looks..." whenever we were painting or doing trim work. And he was right, from that far away, it's doesn't look too bad at all. It's really not all that bad when up close either, but dang, it ain't pewter... And just for fun...
Check out the new-to-me fringed leather shooting jacket that I got on fleabay for $60, which goes well with my U.S. kepi whenever I'm making smoke at the range. I love it! And my wife... Well, she thinks it's a mid-life crisis or something and that I've reliving days of my youth watching Daniel Boone. But I told her it was much cheaper than a Corvette and a 20-year old blonde! And she told me I'll live a lot longer with just the jacket too! So far, the breach bolt (trapdoor) of the OM is holding well, and I haven't had to "do the fix" to this H&R like others have reported (if the setscrew slips on the round shaft of the latch). That wasn't an issue with the Uberti Carbine that I sold off, but I just "had to have" this Officer's Model when I saw it. Sure it would have been fun to keep both of the Trapdoors, but I couldn't make that happen... Plus, with the extra $$ from the sale of the carbine, that helped to fund the recent Savage 99 that I got.
Tight groups all!
Old No7
I finally found one at a really decent price (the guy over at Cabela's must have been in a rush to get out the door, or been focused on black/plastic rifles), so I quickly grabbed it -- and then ended up selling off the Carbine for +30% more than I paid for it!
Anyway, without any further delays, here are some pix of the newest Trapdoor in my stable.
This one is the 100th Anniversary model for H&R, which I am OK with, as I like the old H&R top-break revolvers: I really like the checkering and tang sight that the Officer's Model provides: And the engraving on all metal parts, plus the tiger-striped case-hardening isn't too bad to look at either: Oh, and you know the "pewter nose cap" that you see in the photo? Surprise! It's silver-painted wood, that has even been carved on the bottom to look like engraving was done in the "pewter". My late father always used to say "Step back 3 feet and see how she looks..." whenever we were painting or doing trim work. And he was right, from that far away, it's doesn't look too bad at all. It's really not all that bad when up close either, but dang, it ain't pewter... And just for fun...
Check out the new-to-me fringed leather shooting jacket that I got on fleabay for $60, which goes well with my U.S. kepi whenever I'm making smoke at the range. I love it! And my wife... Well, she thinks it's a mid-life crisis or something and that I've reliving days of my youth watching Daniel Boone. But I told her it was much cheaper than a Corvette and a 20-year old blonde! And she told me I'll live a lot longer with just the jacket too! So far, the breach bolt (trapdoor) of the OM is holding well, and I haven't had to "do the fix" to this H&R like others have reported (if the setscrew slips on the round shaft of the latch). That wasn't an issue with the Uberti Carbine that I sold off, but I just "had to have" this Officer's Model when I saw it. Sure it would have been fun to keep both of the Trapdoors, but I couldn't make that happen... Plus, with the extra $$ from the sale of the carbine, that helped to fund the recent Savage 99 that I got.
Tight groups all!
Old No7
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Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!" (Fell into another "Trap"!)
+1!Ysabel Kid wrote:Only problem I see is your kepi is too dark!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!" (Fell into another "Trap"!)
Nice rifle and good report. I've got an H&R trapdoor in my safe I've had for over a year and have yet to find time to shoot it.
Rob
Rob
Proud to be Christian American and not ashamed of being white.
May your rifle always shoot straight, your mag never run dry, you always have one more round than you have adversaries, and your good mate always be there to watch your back.
Because I can!
Never grow a wishbone where a backbone ought to be.
May your rifle always shoot straight, your mag never run dry, you always have one more round than you have adversaries, and your good mate always be there to watch your back.
Because I can!
Never grow a wishbone where a backbone ought to be.
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Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!" (Fell into another "Trap"!)
Try some cast bullets sized to .459" diameter.. You might be pleasantly surprised...
Regards
Buck
Life has a way of making the foreseeable that which never happens, and the unforeseeable, that which your life becomes...
Buck
Life has a way of making the foreseeable that which never happens, and the unforeseeable, that which your life becomes...
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!"
junkbug wrote:
I do not believe trapdoors are considered stronger than rolling blocks. - +1
It is still an older system, meant for lower pressure cartridges. - Why loads are specified "not for trapdoor" or "trapdoors only".
I always thought it would be fun to make a modern replica carbine in 20 gauge shotgun chambering, with a rifled barrel, for slugs or round ball.
IIRC, the issue barrel can be bored out to .56cal - giving you a 28ga Forager.
.
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!" (Fell into another "Trap"!)
Very cool. Just out of curiousity, I wonder how many trap door rifles and carbines made their way West during the settling of the Western states. I know there is not a set answer for it, but there probably were quite a few at first.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
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Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!" (Fell into another "Trap"!)
My current Trapdoor is an early rifle made in 1874. Some idjit sanded the stock, ruining collector value, but she has a sweet bore and is a fine shooter.
Mike Venturino likes Windex with Vinegar for bore and cases. You have to look for it, as most of what's out there is the old ammonia formula.
Mike Venturino likes Windex with Vinegar for bore and cases. You have to look for it, as most of what's out there is the old ammonia formula.
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!" (Fell into another "Trap"!)
Excellent report, with style and wit
I love trap doors too and just know I would have heaps of fun with one.
I second the .459" bullets.
Nath.
I love trap doors too and just know I would have heaps of fun with one.
I second the .459" bullets.
Nath.
Psalm ch8.
Because I wish I could!
Because I wish I could!
Re: "It's a Traaaaap!!!" (Fell into another "Trap"!)
Mine was made in 1875. I get the best results using 500 gn. 30:1 bullets, shooting them "as-cast"...pan lubed over 67 gns. BP.