Reloading warning for Hornet/K-Hornet shooters and Lil'Gun

[earlmck]

JohndeFresno just did another warning for us QuickLoad users on some inaccurate data, and I've had this thought I should do the same on another situation with Hodgdon's Lil'Gun powder in the hornets.

The Hodgdon website and their published manual show Lil' Gun to be an absolute miracle worker in the hornet and the k-hornet, giving 200 or more fps over any other powder. For example, Hodgdon's manual shows the 45 grain Hornady bullet and 13 grains of Lil' Gun giving 2787 fps at a mere 31,600 cup in the regular hornet. That is wow! stuff for a hornet. And the website shows 13.2 grains with the 45 grain Speer bullet giving 2893 fps in the K-Hornet at a mere 36K psi.

Now QuickLoad shows that K-hornet load at similar velocity but at 46K psi (so right there at max for most hornets).

This fellow, without even checking QuickLoad, loaded up a series starting with 12.0 grains and going to 13.5 grains to see how it'd look at the bench and over the chronograph. Holy cripes! 12.0 grains (and a slightly longer C.O.A.L. than Hodgon's) blew the primer plumb outa' the case. So QuickLoad underestimates the pressure considerably for this load in my rifle, and Hodgdon understates it humongously. I have since tried this bullet at much lower loads and I get more velocity than I ever got with any other powder using 10.2 grains of the Lil' Gun. So it may be a miracle powder in the hornets, but for at least some of us it takes a whole lot less than most people would seem to think.

Anybody else tried the Lil' Gun in their hornet or k-hornet?

[Hobie]

I now use Lil'Gun in both the Hornet and Bee and I use the max published charges, 13 and 14 gr. respectively. I use the same bullet as well, the 40 gr. VMAX. I have used small rifles and small pistol primers and even mag primers. My gun is a Contender factory for the Hornet and a Fox River "custom" for the Bee. I have no problems at 0° or at 100° Fahrenheit. I haven't chronographed the loads but suspect they are as advertised or close to it based on apparent trajectories. These are the most accurate loads I've yet found shooting under 1MOA in a dead calm (no breeze) environment.

I should note that every gun is different in myriad ways and one must work up to loads as published and follow the book recommendations. In some guns one will find pressure problems with reportedly safe loads for any particular cartridge and so one can't assume anything.

[wolfdog]

I have gone up to 13 grains of Lil'gun behind Speer 45 grain bullet in my 342 with no pressure signs, but it groups a bit tighter at 12.5
13 grains behind a 34 grain dogtown hollow point also no pressure signs but hte best groups I have ever shot with anything I have ever shot(so long as there was no wind)

[earlmck]

Thanks for that info, Hobie and wolfdog. So it is just my particular rifle doing this. Verrrrry interesting: this rifle has not shown any such signs with 2400 or 4227 or WW680 that have been the other powders I've fed it over the 40 years I've had it. At 10.2 grains of powder it looks like the little rifle will get me a lot of mileage out of a pound of Lil' Gun!

[Rimfire McNutjob]

The best powder for the Hornet is Norma R123. The only problem is they quit importing it about 6 years ago. I'm hoping that Alliant's new 300MP will be a close contender for the crown. If you shoot Hornet and run into R123 at a gun show ... Grab it. Even if you don't shoot Hornet, grab it and I'll give you $100 for the pound and drive to your state to pick it up.

[earlmck]

If you shoot Hornet and run into R123 at a gun show ... Grab it. Even if you don't shoot Hornet, grab it and I'll give you $100 for the pound and drive to your state to pick it up.

Wow! For a fellow living in Florida to say that to a fellow living in Oregon.... you must really like that R123, Rimfire. So hey, I'll keep an eye out for it.

I looked at it in "QuickLoad", which shows it as having similar burn characteristics to 2400, which is an excellent hornet powder. But before driving across the country to get some of that elixir, make sure you try a little of the Lil' Gun (or H110 or ww296) and see if it doesn't satisfy.

[Hobie]

Thanks for that info, Hobie and wolfdog. So it is just my particular rifle doing this. Verrrrry interesting: this rifle has not shown any such signs with 2400 or 4227 or WW680 that have been the other powders I've fed it over the 40 years I've had it. At 10.2 grains of powder it looks like the little rifle will get me a lot of mileage out of a pound of Lil' Gun!

I guess it will! This is a fun cartridge.

[44/40]

I haven't shot my K Hornet (Ruger #3, 22" bbl.) in about a year, but reading your post made me look at my record book which has the targets and all pertinant data - case, primer, powder, OAL, etc.
Below are my three best Lil Gun loads. Good case life, no pressure signs, loose primer pockets, etc. Lil Gun is the best thing that's ever happened to MY K Hornet. Three 3 shot 100 yd.groups fired over a Chrony F-1 Master:
((I am NOT recommending these loads. Data is from my gun only! YMMV)):
35 gr. Hornady V-Max / 13.0 gr. / 3,250 fps = .498" @ 100 yds
40 gr. Nosler BalTip / 13.0 gr. / 3,345 fps = .442" @ 100 yds.
40 gr. Sierra HP / 12.0 gr. / 3,180 fps = .302" @ 100 yds.
These were all shot off a heavy bench with a heavy adjustable front rest and rear bag. I realize I lucked into a very accurate and well chambered K Hornet and I have no pressure testing equipment. That said, accuracy, velocity, and case life are all I could ask for, and the 35 gr. V-Max load killed about a pickup full of prairie dogs in W. Texas two years ago (in 100 degree heat) out to 275 yds. saving the 223 & 22-250 for the longer shots.
I've probably raised more questions than answers, but just wanted to add this info to the discussion.

[earlmck]

I've probably raised more questions than answers, but just wanted to add this info to the discussion.

You've got that right, 44/40 -- those are amazing results from a K-Hornet, both accuracy and velocity. "QuickLoad" thinks you'd be past 60K psi to be getting those velocities, so yours adds more info to the "every gun is different scenario".

Seems my rifle is on one end of the spectrum and yours is on the other. Plus my little beast (old low-wall Winchester) gets a 1.5" group on a good day. Wanna' trade?

[Rimfire McNutjob]

If you shoot Hornet and run into R123 at a gun show ... Grab it. Even if you don't shoot Hornet, grab it and I'll give you $100 for the pound and drive to your state to pick it up.

Wow! For a fellow living in Florida to say that to a fellow living in Oregon.... you must really like that R123, Rimfire. So hey, I'll keep an eye out for it.

I looked at it in "QuickLoad", which shows it as having similar burn characteristics to 2400, which is an excellent hornet powder. But before driving across the country to get some of that elixir, make sure you try a little of the Lil' Gun (or H110 or ww296) and see if it doesn't satisfy.

It could be that I also wouldn't mind burning some vacation and seeing a few more states. I'm betting 300MP will out do Lil'gun but I don't think there's any data out there for it. Further, there's no QuickLoad profile for 300MP either. European Hornet shooters can probably verify that R123 is tops in the Hornet as they can probably still get it. I think it's really a Bofors product. As I recall, it's got about a 200fps advantage over Lil'gun with a 40 grain bullet.

[44/40]

Wanna' trade?
Sorry earl, this is one of those that will never get traded or sold. It just does too many things well. I call it the No.3 Bill should have built. I reworked the stock by getting rid of the barrel band and carbine butt plate. Floated the barrel tweaked the trigger, and hung a Sightron 3-12 on it and it's been a happy little killing machine ever since. A keeper for sure !

[Booger Bill]

I have to get with the program. I bought this model 70 in the early 1970s from a ad on the board at work. It was advertised as .22 hornet. I took it out and found it was rechambered to K-hornet. Its serial # 8,039. I wrote winchester on it and they said it was made the 1st year, 1937. Yet I think it was date stamped under the barrel 1935. I think they must have been useing up barrels from the model 54. I did buy some k-hornet dies and work with it years ago just a little. I realize it has to have the smaller diamiter bullets. I havent played with it in many years. I am going to get with the program soon. Darn it, it`s also been d&t, but it was a fine job. I think I paid $140s for it back then. What do you think?

[wolfdog]

Pretty!

[Udy]

Just for comparisons sake, some lilgun velocities in my stock ruger 77/22hornet.

CCI500-12.5gr.lilgun-40gr.nosler Ballistic tip=2902ft/sec.
CCI500-12.5gr.lilgun-40gr.v-max=2862

Haven't shot it for some time, was just looking at notes, but I don't recall ever seeing any pressure signs with these. I also have never took it up to max, just because of everything I have ever read said the case life drops considerably with the fragile little things. Don't think I am helping here, just adding more confusion for the discussion.

[earlmck]

Wanna' trade?
Sorry earl, this is one of those that will never get traded or sold. It just does too many things well. I call it the No.3 Bill should have built. I reworked the stock by getting rid of the barrel band and carbine butt plate. Floated the barrel tweaked the trigger, and hung a Sightron 3-12 on it and it's been a happy little killing machine ever since. A keeper for sure !

Very nice! You'll get a kick out of how close my "K" is in build to yours -- probably made about 60 years apart:

KHornet.jpg

I have to get with the program.

Man I guess! That's a really nice rifle. And look at the velocities people are getting from the little "K" with the Lil' Gun. Time to unlimber that old Winchester, even if it does have that funny little side-lever .

Don't think I am helping here, just adding more confusion for the discussion.

No, you're baby looks pretty much in line with Hodgdon's data. So most people are right in line with Hodgdon, I've got one very extra techy with the Lil' Gun, and 44/40 has one that is an absolute barn-burner with the stuff. This has been real interesting from the reloading perspective. Just when you think you know 'most everything, you find out you don't .