Accident at the Reno Air races

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:33 am

An old man, he would have been 75 in a few weeks, ridiculously modified an airplane that has been racing since 1946 apparently intending to set another record by the hype and ended up killing 9 and injuring 50 some or whatever the # is. I pray that in addition to help for the families and victims the lawyers come armed with the wrath of God and take everything in the Leeward empire and whatever they can from the Reno Air Races. But then, one Sunday a few years ago I stopped by my office to pick up the paper and saw on the front page that Jacob Hefter, a young college student whom I had been taking care of since a small child, and many others were killed when one metro link head hit another head on because the operator had been texting and missed some signals. The bodies were unrecognizable as such in many cases. Jared had been standing in the stairwell to get off at the next stop to come home to see his girlfriend was still alive when the emergency rescue people got there. Fate??? Spent an hour with his mother last week.

These are the first spectator fatalities at Reno AR. 19 other pilots have died - 3 in 2007. Jared was certainly led to believe he was safe as were the spectators here. But, they weren't.

Let everyone in the chain that put this old man and that plane there PAY, and they will! Some paid with their lives, others with, I am sure, lifelong maladies now.

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:11 am

If you notice in the last pic, you cannot see the pilot. Incapacitated somehow?

Alan Wood · Post by **Alan Wood** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:41 pm

LeverBob wrote:I too mourn the loss, humans are imperfect & produce imperfect things. Having made a few mistakes myself I can emphathize.

In Hobie's photo I noticed two holes at the left wing rear wing root with the vapor trailing. As I have come to understand, they redesigned the cooling system including relocation of the radiator, thus losing the radiator bottom cowling. This eliminated the "belly" of the original mustang. Were those holes originally there as part of the design? Or, did something blowup in the rear & cut hydraulic or control wires? Flyers...help me sleep tonight.

My apologies if I'm digging into this too much....it's a problem & something as horrendous as this will not let my mind rest until I figure it out. The loss of a superb pilot, young people with a future, old people with yet many years to enjoy....what a tragedy. Sometimes things like this drive me batty.

LB

In a you tube video discussing the mods the pilot described the new cooling system as a boil off system. Implying that the just keep pumping water in the the engine and let it boil and vent out those two holes.
Alan Wood

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:52 pm

Gary wrote:What is also odd is that the tail wheel deployed...

A chilling pic....and where is the pilot? Shouldn't one be able to see him in the cockpit? I don't understand a rabid necessity to afix blame. Pilots know the risks, and a spectator should know that stuff happens. Just like at Monster Truck events, nay, any event where machinery goes fast and might lose control. People consider the up close, and personal seating The Berries for viewing and accept the risk, IMO.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:03 pm

I belive in adults takeing action on their own respondsabilitys. However when they drag kids along with them that go`s to a different level.

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:57 pm

A last thought.

If a pilot is having problems, IIRC, at Reno at least, they pull up to clear themselves off the course and go get out of the way. With the trim tab gone, maybe he realized he was having problems and pulled up to clear the course, but it pitched up too fast and he blacked out due to the G forces, then crashed.

May never know exactly what caused it.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:08 pm

Check out this paragraph out of the following lead. Interesting!
The Galloping Ghost (airplane) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On September 17, 2011, it was reported that the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) was examining whether the loss of a component of the tail played a role in the crash of the Galloping Ghost aircraft.[6] News reports included a photograph taken right before the crash while the airplane was inverted show a missing left elevator trim tab.[7][8] In 1998, the left trim tab was lost during the Reno Air Races by a modified P-51 Mustang named the Voodoo Chile. The 1998 incident did not lead to a crash but pilot "Hurricane" Bob Hannah reported that when the elevator trim tab came off during the race, the airplane pitched up and subjected him to over 10 G's deceleration and a loss of consciousness. When the pilot regained consciousness, the plane had climbed to over 9,000 feet of altitude. In the 1998 incident, the pilot was able to bring the damaged plane in for a safe landing. [9] [10]
EDITED: Here is another article I just googled on the same subject!
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0918/ ... sh-is-seen

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:24 pm

Sadly, the death toll has risen to 9, with many more in critical condition.

OJ · Post by OJ » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:25 am

Speaking as a long time commercial pilot and FAA medical examiner - my evaluations always included some estimate of the applicant's mental health and I don't think I was unique there -

I think the extensive modifications to the plane had more to do with the causes of the accident - planes are required to pass an "annual examination" too - for certification for they are "airworthy". I think there are plenty of questions about that plane passing the annual exam - as well as the judgment of any pilot who would fly a plane that modified -

The P 51 wasn't the easiest plane to fly as it came from the factory - at full size, you couldn't use full throttle on take-off because there wasn't enough right rudder to prevent rolling to the left. My understanding is he reduced wing span and control surfaces areas - to reduce drag, I suppose - at the expense of control under full power. Trim tabs are only used for reducing the amount of pilot control input needed for whatever flight conditions used and I don't see how that would be a factor here - other than he was exceeding safe limits for the structure of the plane and loss of trim tabs was just another symptom.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:44 pm

OJ wrote:Speaking as a long time commercial pilot and FAA medical examiner - my evaluations always included some estimate of the applicant's mental health and I don't think I was unique there -

I think the extensive modifications to the plane had more to do with the causes of the accident - planes are required to pass an "annual examination" too - for certification for they are "airworthy". I think there are plenty of questions about that plane passing the annual exam - as well as the judgment of any pilot who would fly a plane that modified -

The P 51 wasn't the easiest plane to fly as it came from the factory - at full size, you couldn't use full throttle on take-off because there wasn't enough right rudder to prevent rolling to the left. My understanding is he reduced wing span and control surfaces areas - to reduce drag, I suppose - at the expense of control under full power. Trim tabs are only used for reducing the amount of pilot control input needed for whatever flight conditions used and I don't see how that would be a factor here - other than he was exceeding safe limits for the structure of the plane and loss of trim tabs was just another symptom.

I do believe I'll take this as final, and leave this thread to others.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:34 pm

A new video has emerged today. http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/0 ... how-crash/

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:07 pm

Another of the "critically injured" has passed, bringing the total to 10 deaths.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:52 pm

OJ wrote: Trim tabs are only used for reducing the amount of pilot control input needed for whatever flight conditions used and I don't see how that would be a factor here

No, I'm sorry but that is not correct unless I am misunderstanding what you mean to say.

A trim tab is used to balance the aerodynamic forces acting upon a control surface such that the force needed to move or hold said surface does not exceed a value desired by the pilot, or the ability of a hydraulic control system to hold the flying surface in a given position. For example, I trim the elevator on my Boeing 767 such that I do not have to hold an annoying level of back pressure on the yolk in order to command a climb, or I often trim the back or forward pressure completely away such that the control column is completely neutral - if I do nothing, the airplane will hold whatever rate of climb or descent (or level flight) that I have "trimmed" it to.

The problem one runs into with malfunctioning trim tabs is that the control surface (the elevators for example) can move uncommanded in a direction with more force than a pilot has muscle to counter. If my elevator trim tab runs completely amok and goes to full down, it takes something like 100 lbs of back pressure for me to overcome it and hold the airplane level. This is highly annoying, but every pilot certified to fly my airplane with paying customers in the back has proven that he/she can do it while hand flying an instrument approach to minimums. OK, great, but what if the trim tab doesn't just "run away" full down - what if the daggum thing breaks completely off and aerodynamically unbalances the elevator? What happens then? I DUNNO! I'm not a test pilot and I hope to never find out! But what COULD happen is that the airplane could suddenly snap full pitch up or full pitch down with such force that I could not hope to counter the forces on the stick, and perhaps with such force that it might snap the tail right off the aircraft. Those scenarios would lead to a complete loss of control in what we call a "departure from controlled flight".

Given the pictures we have of the aircraft losing its' elevator trim tab in a high G turn around the pylons, I feel pretty confident that eventually the story will unfold that the loss of an elevator trim tab led to a loss of control and departure from controlled flight. I think that any suggestion that the pilot somehow "guided" the aircraft in the final moments is pure folly, and we will learn that the mechanical failure that led the aircraft to depart from controlled flight meant that the pilot was a hapless passenger in an unguided missile the final seconds of his life.

Or I could be wrong! At this juncture who knows. One thing is certain, I spent the day in a room with 20 professional pilots, each like me with thousands of hours in all manner of heavy equipment and fighters etc., some of these men have dedicated their careers to accident investigation, training, and aviation safety, and every one of us shared exactly the opinion I stated above given what we are seeing in the pictures and video...TODAY. Could change tomorrow! NTSB investigations take months to get to the likely causes of an accident - today all we have is speculation.

Just my 2¢ worth.

Oly

OJ · Post by OJ » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:25 am

olyinaz wrote:
OJ wrote: Trim tabs are only used for reducing the amount of pilot control input needed for whatever flight conditions used and I don't see how that would be a factor here
No, I'm sorry but that is not correct unless I am misunderstanding what you mean to say.

A trim tab is used to balance the aerodynamic forces acting upon a control surface such that the force needed to move or hold said surface does not exceed a value desired by the pilot, or the ability of a hydraulic control system to hold the flying surface in a given position. For example, I trim the elevator on my Boeing 767 such that I do not have to hold an annoying level of back pressure on the yolk in order to command a climb, or I often trim the back or forward pressure completely away such that the control column is completely neutral - if I do nothing, the airplane will hold whatever rate of climb or descent (or level flight) that I have "trimmed" it to.

Snip>

Just my 2¢ worth
Oly

Well, I thought that was exactly what I said but not as extensively as you said it. Whether climbing to cruise altitude, cruising, or descending, we set trim tabs for that job and it reduces the amount of input required from the pilot - that he would have to do otherwise - such as stick back to climb, etc.

I did all my own annuals on my planes - then had them signed off by my ex-brother-in-law - who was crew chief for Clay Lacy - one of the regulars who raced his P51 at Reno for many years. I got the chance to talk at length with "The Capitan" and was left with the impression he did few - if any - modifications to the basic structure of his plane and, during any racing, any trim tab settings were unchanged during the race - usually a pretty neutral setting -

It was my impression the trim tab destruction was just another symptom of vibrations of the plane when it went out of control. If the newspaper stories were accurate (I know - that requires a leap of faith - as noted - pilot's age was reported as 80 in on account and 74 in another) it was reported the wings were shortened some 10 feet - I suspect that was exaggeration but I also think any shortening of the wings could adversely affect control of that plane (as I noted, full throttle could not be used on take-off because there wasn't enough right rudder to prevent the plane rolling over on its back to the left).

My last air Force tour (Korean War) was as a medical officer but was close to the pilots of F-86s - converted from Mustangs - which they loved but admitted required special experience to fly.

I may be mistaken but, I think we're on the same page here.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:51 pm

So far we have four unusual factors published.
1. The trim tab showed flying off the plane.
2. Cant see the pilots head in the cockpit where we should.
3. It`s reported he gave a mayday.
4. The tailwheel is deployed where it should be up.
The theory has been given his seat might have fell backwards. I can belive that. Might the abrut change in pitch be by yanking the stick back and that breaking the tab with sudden pressure change? Also might he grapped whatever means that lowers the tail wheel in his panic? Many years ago I owned a piper tri pacer. I replentished the brake fluid under the pilot seat and didnt properly latch it. I had picked up my aunt and was giveing her a ride. On take off my seat fell back. It was a exciteing few secounds! Fortunatly, I had presence of minf to reach the yoke and push forward to prevent a stall untill I grabbed something and pulled myself upright and get situated. This was at about 75 mph, not 500!

OJ · Post by OJ » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:24 pm

Here's the latest from my subscription to Flying -

http://www.flyingmag.com/news/reno-cras ... news092011

I'll report any updates but it sounds very complicated and strange.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:36 am

OJ wrote:I did all my own annuals on my planes - then had them signed off by my ex-brother-in-law - who was crew chief for Clay Lacy - one of the regulars who raced his P51 at Reno for many years. I got the chance to talk at length with "The Capitan" and was left with the impression he did few - if any - modifications to the basic structure of his plane and, during any racing, any trim tab settings were unchanged during the race - usually a pretty neutral setting -

That might be a clue right there. On an unmodded or lightly modded airframe that makes sense. On one that's had 5' lopped off each wing, it might be more of an issue. It's been 20+ years since I flew but my recollection is full power makes the nose climb (at least in a Cessna 150

). If that's the case, he probably would have had the trim tab cranked down pretty good to keep neutral balance. Lose that and then the nose will pitch up since the elevator is no longer holding that neutral balance.

The pilot of the '98 trim tab incident said he pulled 10Gs and blacked out when his Mustang pitched up. The article OJ posted is saying initial telemetry indicates possibly 11Gs were pulled when this one pitched up. If that's true, it's entirely possible he was able to radio the "Mayday" then blacked out and was just a passenger.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:40 am

I had several friends there - they make an annual pilgrimage in a big RV.
One of them is an MD, and of course he had to respond. (If you ever want to talk yourself out of a motorcycle, talk to an MD)
They moved on to the Mojave to make the best of their trip, but in talking with them, could feel the trauma through the phone.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:39 pm

With one of the critical passing yesterday, the total now is 11 dead from this unfortunate event. The latest conjecture is that Leeward had likely been rendered unconscious by the speed at which he was flying. The aircraft accelerated skyward at 500+ MPH before plunging into earth at nearly that speed. No pilot is visible in the cockpit in the moments before impact.

OJ · Post by OJ » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:54 pm

From my hanger of Quiet Birdmen - full story - even better if you speak Portuguese -

http://sz0096.ev.mail.comcast.net/servi ... 260&part=2

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:29 pm

bulldog1935 wrote: I had several friends there - they make an annual pilgrimage in a big RV. One of them is an MD, and of course he had to respond. (If you ever want to talk yourself out of a motorcycle, talk to an MD) They moved on to the Mojave to make the best of their trip, but in talking with them, could feel the trauma through the phone.

Yep, just talked with another of my buds who was at the scene. So close he got avgas and blood spattered on him from the crash. First responder - gore and body parts everywhere etc. He says he's "fine" but we could all tell he's not. He's done the right thing and removed himself from flying status for a spell in order to regroup.

Tough stuff!

Oly

OJ · Post by OJ » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:37 pm

(If you ever want to talk yourself out of a motorcycle, talk to an MD)

I tried but have to respond to that -

We're all acquainted with anti-gun MDs but know plenty of MD gun lovers - same for motorcycles. It may be from those who only see motorcycle injuries in the ER but - rationally, there are a lot more auto injuries and they aren't anti-auto - ?logical?

I'm a charter life member of the AMA (American Motorcycle Association) and started riding "bikes" in 1940 - plus, most of my close riding buddies were MDs - surgeons, in fact - so we're no all anti-motorcyclists. Who could resist this beauty ??

OTOH, the American Medical Association has been trying to get me to renew my membership since 1969 - we just don't see eye-to-eye.

The sad part is now, at age 85, my parts are wearing out - heart, knees, back - well you know. But, life's been good to me so I can't really complain.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:46 am

MDs are required by law to render aid at road accidents, so on any random day may have to stop and wait for someone to die.
Lot more automobiles with a lot more protection around them.
I'm not acquainted with Any anti-gun MDs - this is s. Texas - but every MD I know has done what I just stated.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:19 am

My doctor rides a harley, his examination room has models, pictures and a old time gas pump standing in the corner. He had to sell his airplane because of heart trouble. He has a dog that has run of the office and greets all patients! I dont ride now as both I and my wife are huge, but I have owned about a dozzen motorcycles, 3 harleys amoung them. I used to fly and have owned several planes. I am hopeing to get current again, I still own a old citaberia that is being rebuilt. I hope to fly it for a year or so and sell it. It isnt big enough to haul us both and take gas along. I also have survived at least 3 MC crashs and two plane mishaps. Once had a person try to run me over and kill me when I was rideing a cycle. Guns, planes, cycles were a huge part of my lifes enjoyment, still is. I crashed in all them, been shot at, and cant imagine liveing life over without those things. I never played tennis, golfed and aint any type spectator sports fan, attend opperas, or much else. I wouldnt have had much of a life without my guns, cycles or planes.
I still love to trail ride on our quad. I remember being at the mohave air races in 1978 while my daughter was being born! Thats another story.

OJ · Post by OJ » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:17 am

OJ wrote:From my hanger of Quiet Birdmen - full story - even better if you speak Portuguese -

http://sz0096.ev.mail.comcast.net/servi ... 260&part=2

I note there has been no comment on the very complete pictoral on the Reno Air Race accident I sent the link to - I'm concerned I may have given the impression there was a need to read Portuguese to understand it - not so - just the most complete pictoral story from before races to the end with dust settling - pics speak for themselves - would be nice if we could get this kind of report in American news -

Here is anothe I got from my QB hanger that answers questions raised about trim tab use yep - written in English - go to this link also for answers.

http://macsblog.com/2011/09/why-the-tri ... s-so-much/

OJ · Post by OJ » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:33 am

bulldog1935 wrote:MDs are required by law to render aid at road accidents, so on any random day may have to stop and wait for someone to die.
Lot more automobiles with a lot more protection around them.
I'm not acquainted with Any anti-gun MDs - this is s. Texas - but every MD I know has done what I just stated.

I know of no state requiring doctors to stop and render aid for any accident - most of us feel we should but, in recent years the ambulances, cops, and firemen have tended to discourage that. Some states have laws encouraging MDs to render aid when they can by restricting the limits of liability one might be faced with but it's only the individual MDs desire to render aid that makes them stop - not any legal requirement.

I'm a little surprised you're not acquainted with any anti-gun MDs since there are so many complaints on all gun forums from pattients who feel (rightly) that some MDs pry into their privacy asking about guns in their homes when they should be just taking care of medical problems - American Academy of Pediatrics and AMA seem to be most frequent abusers of that.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:38 am

OJ wrote: Here is anothe I got from my QB hanger that answers questions raised about trim tab use yep - written in English - go to this link also for answers.

http://macsblog.com/2011/09/why-the-tri ... s-so-much/

Mac definitely knows what he's talking about. Very nicely written piece.

Oly

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:48 pm

Thunder50 wrote:If you notice in the last pic, you cannot see the pilot. Incapacitated somehow?

Yes, he was likely completely passed out from the sudden G-loads . If the plane had climbed rather than dived , he may have had a chance to recover -- but who knows (that happened a few years back with a similar trim tab incident where the plane began a sharp climb -- pilot blacked out for approximately 4 seconds but was able to recover and save it ) --- that may be the incident with Bob Hannah that BoogerBill referenced. However, Hannah at the time would have been in his early 40's and was in peak physical condition

not that it matters much, but i'm an FAA licensed A&P mechanic and conversed about this with some of my old aviation colleagues at length

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:51 pm

OJ wrote:
OJ wrote:http://sz0096.ev.mail.comcast.net/servi ... 260&part=2
I note there has been no comment on the very complete pictoral on the Reno Air Race accident I sent the link to

I've tried to open it 3 or 4 times yesterday and today and keep getting Comcast error messages which is odd since I don't have Comcast...

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:52 pm

awp101 wrote:
OJ wrote:
OJ wrote:http://sz0096.ev.mail.comcast.net/servi ... 260&part=2
I note there has been no comment on the very complete pictoral on the Reno Air Race accident I sent the link to
I've tried to open it 3 or 4 times yesterday and today and keep getting Comcast error messages which is odd since I don't have Comcast...

Me too

OJ · Post by OJ » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:41 pm

I've tried to open it 3 or 4 times yesterday and today and keep getting Comcast error messages which is odd since I don't have Comcast...

I sure am sorry guys - I set it up and tried it on my computer and it worked so I assumed it would for forwarding to the list here - didn't even notice the "comcast" in the title. I've tried everything I can think of to get it forwarded but no luck - too bad since there are some great pictures there - intent was good but delivery failed.

I think I'm more up to speed on aircraft, flying, medicine and such but have a 21st century computer operated by a 20th century mind. I'm just glad the last one did come through.

OJ · Post by OJ » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:14 am

Now - try this one -

http://www.flyingmag.com/news/reno-air- ... news102511

OJ · Post by OJ » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:46 pm

Hearings are still going on - there was concern such events might be prohibited in future but - it looks like the feds are keeping hands off for now anyway. This is the latest on Reno and air races.

http://www.flyingmag.com/news/air-race- ... pPodID=030

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:12 pm

From the LA Times,

"At least nine people were confirmed killed and more than 50 injured Friday afternoon when a plane crashed into the stands at an air race in Reno. Because of the number and severity of injuries, the death toll was expected to rise.

Mike Houghton, president of the National Championship Air Races in Reno, said the National Transportation Safety Board had taken over the investigation and would determine a cause but that the pilot, 74-year-old Jimmy Leeward, was “an experienced, talented and qualified pilot.”

The crash at the Reno air races was the first to take the lives of spectators, but it wasn’t the first to kill a pilot. At least 19 other pilots have died in crashes at the Reno air races since 1972, including three deaths in 2007."

OJ · Post by OJ » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:16 pm

True - pilots have been killed there in past.

Last night I was at my old pilot's club (Quiet Birdmen) monthly dinner meeting ( my wife says I should say "seasoned" instead of old - requires minimum if 500 hours logged as pilot in command time to be eligible for membership - but most of us are fairly old) - anyway, two of the members at my table had been sitting in the seat section the plane crashed into and had only departed that section a few minutes before the crash - talk about living a charmed life - however, most of us who have flown many years can recall at least one incident we survived when we could have "bought the farm".

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:01 pm

The races will continue at Stead, but in some "modified" form for spectators. I suspect that they may move the seats back about a mile 'er two.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:18 pm

Old thread, but I thought this Bill Whittle commentary was a good one - it used the Reno accident as an example, but is about the general wussification of America.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCBbosq9 ... ure=relmfu

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:43 pm

But what if your children were killed?

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:46 pm

Well good for you OJ but what about the relatives of the people who did as you say so cavalierly "bought the farm"? Or the people themselves who "bought the farm". How crass.

This was all about an OLD MAN's ego and skip the cutesy names to make old people feel better about themselves - you are old and not what you used to be and people are humoring you.

OLD MEN should sit in rocking chairs not high powered FOOLISHLY modified racing airplanes - this man had become a DANGEROUS OLD FOOL.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:17 pm

OS - I love ya buddy, but I have to say you're flat wrong here. Please watch the video. I'll bet you come
away from it agreeing with Bill Whittle. It is fact based, and draws logical conclusions from those facts. - DixieBoy

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:19 pm

Didn't watch it purposely - assessing the situation from the FACTS I know but I will watch it so see the what is said.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:25 pm

That's all anybody can ask. I learned a few things - unquestionable facts - that I did not know about this crash. - DixieBoy

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:29 pm

An OLD MAN altered a plane to try to regain a record and he killed people for his FOOLISHNESS, is there anything that over rides that here?

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:19 am

Aw, come on OS. He had a mechanical failure. All of those hot-rod P-51's are maxed out racing machines.
Had the rods securing that tail elevator (hope I've named that part correctly) broken while a younger man
was flying the machine he couldn't have done anything different than Jimmy Leeward did.

I appreciated the greater point that Bill Whittle was making. Are we willing to let the "nannies" among us legislate
everything which might possibly be dangerous out of existence ?

For years I was what we used to call a hardcore diver. Not so much anymore since messing up a knee (getting in
and out of boats hurts bad now). While I was diving I had one friend who grossly exceeded all the dive tables in existence.
He got bent, badly. Almost didn't survive, and now - several years later - he walks with a cane and is slowly regaining mobility.
Know a young woman who got bent and didn't exceed the dive tables at all. She had a tiny hole in one of the chambers of
her heart which allowed for her to get bent (decompression sickness, for the unitiated) without doing anything "wrong."
They were just developing the medical equipment back then which would have detected this tiny hole in her heart.
But she got bent doing something that she loved. She didn't try to have sport diving banned.

I mention these few examples because over the years there have been politicians and lawyers who have suggested that
we further regulate scuba diving. I can't tell you how my blood boiled when I heard the nonsense that some of these types
were slinging. Scuba diving was some of the greatest freedom I've ever known in my life, and my own safety, and that of
other divers is guided almost completely by my own awareness, knowledge, and by God above.

This kind of thing is what Bill Whittle was talking about. Will we let politicians, under the guise of "protecting us from
ourselves" finally turn us into a nation of complete and total wussies ? I KNOW that you don't want that. - DixieBoy

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:48 am

Only thing different is that when the rod broke for the trim tab and the AC pitched up and pulled the G forces, a younger man might not have passed out, kept control of the aircraft and not killed people. My perspective is that his ego factor exceeded his physical factors

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:20 am

If they warned folks (somewhere that it would be read and taken note of) that it was possible - not likely but theoretically possible - that one of the race airplanes might careen out of control and crash into the grandstands (and I don't know if they did that or not) then the discussion is over. You buys your ticket and takes your chances.

People love dangerous things. And I'm not just talking about adrenalin junkies or "extreme sports" people - look at foreign rally car races or that silly "running of the bulls" business. As long as folks know what they're into IT'S ON THEM.

Oly

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:21 am

Thunder50 wrote:Only thing different is that when the rod broke for the trim tab and the AC pitched up and pulled the G forces, a younger man might not have passed out, kept control of the aircraft and not killed people. My perspective is that his ego factor exceeded his physical factors

Maybe,
but it also happened to Bob Hannah at the ripe old age of 42 (maybe a bit past his prime as an athlete, but certainly not "old" ) . Hannah was a professional motocross racer who was well known to be a training maniac, running up to 10 miles a day in addition to motocross specific training, before he turned to aviation.
Big difference was HAnnah's incident happened at altitude and the plane pitched upward instead of straight down -- he woke up and was able to regain control of the aircraft

ole pizen slinger · Post by **ole pizen slinger** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:29 am

Let's put matters a little closer to home. How many of you want to ban guns because there is risk involved.
OPS

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:43 am

When you push anything to the limit, you often find the limit! Personaly, I dont think his age had anything to do with the accident. He was very successfull. Sometimes success breeds contempt. Sometimes we get caught up with. You ever stop to think how many parts are in a plane, automobile or even in a motorcycle? The tinyest critical screw failing at the wrong time can call you home! They all have their place and function else they wouldnt be there.

pdentrem · Post by **pdentrem** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:47 am

Lets get rid of eating, drinking, sleeping and family members. These are the greatest cause of deaths world wide!

Poli poeple are only there to get re elected and their benefit packages - that is all they care about. Most are failed business men and lawyers. Used to be that if you could not make it you became a truck driver, now it is a legalized thief.