Winchester 1873 extractor-Update "UPDATE"

[pwl44m]

Got this e-mail today. Contrary to what I thought or read. It even answers Shastas question although wrong I think. Anyhow read it and see what U think.
Perry
Dear pwl44m,

Your replacement part was mailed to you on Saturday. Please be careful when attempting to install this part as we cannot replace it again.
1. The extractor is NOT a spring. It remains fixed in position once it has been properly fitted and finally installed. Care must be taken to avoid flexing during fit-up and installation of the cross pin.
2. NEVER chamber a round and then close the bolt on it. It will snap the extractor. Always load rounds to the magazine and the carrier block will lift the round under the extractor where the extractor groove will contact the cartridge rim with very little, or no flexing of the extractor.
3. Finally, if you are unsure about installing this part, then please seek the services of a professional gunsmith.

[perry owens]

Not how it happens with my 1873's, either originals or Ubertis...
The cartridge rim barely touches the extractor at the top of the lift


The extractor nose pushes the shell forward as the bolt closes

The hook snaps over the rim about here...


Perry Owens

[pwl44m]

Thats the way I have always understood it Perry. Not with just the 73 but all Guns. I'm thinking that if I get it installed without breaking it it will break when I chamber a round. The one I tried was just super brittle. I should get it today and We'll see.
Thx for the Pics, is that a 38 or 44 ?
Perry

[perry owens]

Perry, it's a 44-40.
From " Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West " by David Chicoine, page 301:...
"As you continue to draw the finger lever back up and it comes into the fully closed position several things will occur; the carrier is pulled back into the down position, the cartridge is pushed fully home into the chamber and the extractor "snaps" over the cartridge rim......."
I think your supplier is, as we Brits say, "having a laugh"

Perry Owens

[pwl44m]

"Quantity" I figure it costs about 30c to make and if they limit everyone to 2 @ $28.04, well- I don't know if Us Yanks have a word for that.
Perry

[Nath]

Is it me or do all extractors fitted to a bolt of any type need to be sprung????

Even a Mauser extractor will ride over a rim with some tuneing!

Can it be relieved a little maybe???

Nath.

[Griff]

I'd say, "...yes, he's right." But, there has to be some spring to the extractor; as, on the 1873, the tab at the bottom of the bolt keeps the cartridge from being flush against the bolt as the bolt starts to push the cartridge into the chamber. The extractor also, at least on my Uberti 1873 and Henry toggle-links, rides upward a tiny bit as the bolt fully closes, up into the extractor cut on the barrel.

Let me put it this way... if there weren't some allowance for the extractor to ride up over a cartridge rim, the pin holding it in place could have been put MUCH further forward on the extractor... it needn't have been quite so long. And why have the ½ round cut in the bolt and on the extractor? It surely would have been just as easy to mill a square there.

But, hey! I ain't a firearms designer, or an engineer... neither did I stay at a Holiday Inn last nite!

[pwl44m]

@ Nath, that has to happen. It has to have enough spring to ride up over the rim.
@ Griff, I see what You are saying but there has to be enough give/spring to ride up over the rim,more than what He is allowing anyhow.The way He tells it the cartridge has to be at a slant to slip under the extractor. On these Toggle actions they are sitting perfectly level. Any resistance on entering the chamber would cause the extractor to engage.
I have 4 Toggle action rifles, a 66 carbine/38 spl (Uberti)- a Henry /44-40 (Uberti), a 73/45Colt (Uberti) and of course the Winchesyer 73/32-20. On all 4 the extractor rises up over the rim, granted it aint much. As You say the length of the extractor helps a little and I'm sure the rocker helps a little. All combined maybe it is more "give" than "spring".
Now let's suppose You have a swelled case that doesn't want to come out - snap is what I'm thinking. I even chambered some rounds and closed the bolt, the extractor rode right up over the rim. Please understand that I am NOT saying anyone is wrong here. I am just trying to understand this Thing.
At any rate I didn't get the part today, surely tomorrow.
stayed tuned-- Perry

[Griff]

I guess I wasn't clear. Yes, it has to have some spring... but mostly, it's in the "roll" of that "½-round" piece in the bolt. And yes, the round is flat on the carrier, it CAN'T help but force the extractor up to ride up over the rim.

On my Uberti clone, you can see the length of the extractor rise up to allow the cartridge under it. It has very little movement, but, move it does.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

The supplier is trying to PTA because of their poor spring making ability. If you think it's springing over the rim when chambering (which it does) take a look at what happens when the empty is ejected.

The CAS shooters with their short stroke 73's that are poorly timed deal with bent over sprung or broke extractors frequently.

Perry, when you get the replacement heat it to a low cherry and water quench it. Now it's brittle. You will need to draw it back. Drip it in some old used motor oil then with just enough heat to set it afire and burn it off until it makes no more smoke . This should be enough heat to make it springy.

[pwl44m]

Thanks Nate I'll do that. Can U believe 4 days from Oregon to Nor Cal and it aint here yet.
BTW thats what I thought , They just dont know how to make a spring. Well I don't either but I'm not selling them.
Perry

[pwl44m]

Don't know what to say other than Dim-Wit. Spent about 2 1/2 hours stoning and shaping this thing. Oh I got it in the mail today. Had it fitting perfect. Installed it in the Gun just to see where everything landed. Put 5 rounds in the mag and levered one in. Worked ok there but just barely caught the round enough to extract it "partially". Cycled a couple more and it didn't pull them out unless I pushed down on the extractor. Then I discovered that it had broken, probably on the first or second round.ARRGH!!!
This time it broke at the pin hole. I know I know I didn't spring it but they make no mention of it and probably warn against it.
I am going to email them and see what they have to say. They did tell Me they wouldn't give Me another one. Their defense will probably be that I am not a Gunsmith. If that is the case they should stipulate "Must" be installed by a Gunsmith. Oh well Huh. I have a lead on one maybe I can pick up Sat in Chico. We'll see, stay tuned as I'm sure there is more to come.
Perry

[pwl44m]

Got this e-mail this morning.
Dear pwl44m,

After selling an average of three of these extractors per month, this is the first time ever that one, let alone two have ever been broken. Perhaps those others were installed by a professional gunsmith.

Please send the part back for a refund.
Haw,not what the Guy at Silverlake told Me. I will send it back, Probably lose some money on the deal and time. So unless U r an experienced "Gunsmith" I wouldn't reccomend this Co.
Aint no way the cartridge slips under the extractor, the stabalizer prevents it from doing that. It is pushed straight forward by the extractor and only on Bolt closure does it slip over the Cartridge. I may Not be an experienced Gunsmith but I can figure things out and what I have figured out is that this part wont work in its present state of temperment. I guess I wont get the chance to see if drawing the temper out would have worked . Thanks for bearing with Me on this, the Saga continues.
If I can't get the one from the Guy in Palermo I will order one from Buckinghams (they are supposed to be drop in and Go.
Perry

[Ben_Rumson]

Don't blame you for being fed up with those dummies... But... For the sake of getting your rifle up & running before summer is over.... I’ll make a suggestion...If it were me ... I'd heat that sucker up and let it cool off slowly so it winds up soft and give it a try & see if that works... Reason being... there may be enough natural spring back in the metal to allow it to work because the thing really doesn't have that much bending to do when it when it rides up and over the rim... I’ve used this method the Uberti 73 spring which aids lever return that will cause premature wear on the lobe it contacts if it is too strong... I softened it and gave it a try to see if it would bend and take a set... It’s still running fine... Good luck...

[pwl44m]

Thx Ben for the vote of confidence. You did kinda lift My spirits with this ("But... For the sake of getting your rifle up & running before summer is over...." ) I thought You were going to send Me an extractor, .
I did figure out 1 thing though, after pouring over all the comments and reading the Co,s web site and Griffs comment on the 1/2 round, the front of the 1/2 round doesn't even touch the bolt- only the back part. Their instructions say to remove just enough material from the back part of the extractor 1/2 rnd to get it to nest in place and the pin to line up. But like Griff says " if it didn't have to ride over the rim then it didn't need to be so Long or need the half round. To Me if it didn't have to move it could have been a fixed part of the Bolt.
Well the next step would have been to try the heat treatment but I guess I won't get that chance with this Co. Trial and error is a very good Teacher and They "could" learn something from this.
Now if I could get Shasta to chime in to answer a question. You say U got Your extractor from the same Company. Did You do a heat treatment (before) starting to fit Yours?
Thats all folks.
Perry

[Nath]

I would try copying it!

N.

[Shasta]

Perry,

Wow, I thought I had trouble! I got my extractor from the same outfit. I'm certainly no gunsmith either, but I'm not afraid to tackle what should have been a simple job. Here's what I did, step by step:

I stoned the extractor to fit my bolt, which required thinning the width as well as reshaping the nose. I assumed it was already hardened to a spring-like quality, but it did seem a little soft during the initial stoning. Upon installation into the bolt and re-assembling the rifle, I ran a few dummy rounds through the action and the extractor almost immediately took a set, bending upward and failing to work.

I removed and straightened it, then tried to temper it by suspending in molten lead for a half hour, followed by quenching in transmission fluid. Then I polished and re-installed it. It worked for less than half of my first range session before again taking an upward bent set and failing to extract the cartridge.

I again removed and straightened it, then this time heating it to a dull red in a darkened room and immediately quenching in water. This seemed to harden it and I decided to just re-install it that way to see if it would work more like a spring without bending. It did much better and lasted through a hundred or so rounds before again taking an upward bend and failing to extract.

I removed and straightened it again, then heated it to a little brighter red color than before and quenched it in ice water. Then I placed it on an electric hotplate and heated it until it was a straw color. I removed it from the hotplate and let it air cool. I then used my Dremel with a felt wheel charged with polishing compound to polish it shiny, going slow so I did not heat it up any while polishing. I re-installed it and so far it has worked well with several hundred rounds fired. I even shot a silhouette match with no extraction failures.

I think this extractor being sold on ebay is way overpriced at $28, and is in reality a piece of junk that requires extensive work to get it to function at all. I guess I'm just lucky mine did not actually break in two while trying to work it. I am going to keep my eye out for an original extractor I can really trust.

SHASTA

[pwl44m]

After all that They refunded every penny. Now I guess We start chapter 4. Been too busy to play with it for now. Still apart on the bench waiting for that day.
Perry

[Sixgun]

Perry,
Sorry to hear of all of the aggravation, but in the end, at least you got the bucks back.

Buckinghams sold me 2 for an 1873 and one for an 1892. The 1873 extractors were repos and the '92 was an original. All dropped in and have been running for several years. Sold the '73's and the '92 has logged over a thou. since installed.------------------Sixgun

[pwl44m]

Sixgun- I'm thinking that is the way I am going to Go.
Now I need to leave feedback for those Guys, under the circumstances I caint be positive yet I caint be completely negative as they did give all My moeny back. I guess I will just be neutral - that in itself says something.
Perry

[KirkD]

Buckinghams sold me 2 for an 1873 and one for an 1892. The 1873 extractors were repos and the '92 was an original. All dropped in and have been running for several years. Sold the '73's and the '92 has logged over a thou. since installed.------------------Sixgun

I purchased a repro extractor from Buckinghams for an old '73 I was fixing up for a friend. He has had no problems thus far.