How they kill--big and slow vs. small and fast

[getitdone1]

I'm a shooter and seldom hunt but was wondering what some of you have discovered when you shot game with big and slow bullet vs. a small and fast bullet.

I know from reading the small and fast generally put the game down fast while the big and and slow sometimes (often?) requires following a blood trail.

I'm assuming here the proper bullet construction for the game hunted. I expect the slow hard and heavy bullets often lead to a slow kill and tracking.

I can think of one possible exception to the above and that's when you load the 45-70 with 300 grain HP at 1800 fps or better. From my experiment with water jugs it appears this one would put medium to small game down fast and would be wicked for self-defense.

Another exception might be when you shoot a long, hard and heavy bullet through both shoulders of an animal. Would seem like this should bring them down fast.

Brain and spine shots don't count.

Don

[O.S.O.K.]

Yes, the long and the short of it is that the light and fast create a "shock" bubble with less penetration and the heavy/slow create a caliber sized hole completely through. Of course, there are points between both...

The heavy/slow kills primarily by bleeding out the animal and causing unconciousness -that's what brings them down and then they die. This is the levergun/35 Whelen/45-70 400 grain bullet type response.

The light/fast imparts an internal "shock" that puts the animal down and then the bleed-out brings on unconciousness. This is why you see them drop and then 10 or 15 seconds later, they hop up and run a bit before they drop again. This is the very fast, usually magnum cartridges.

This is not the hard fast rule though and in my experience with 270/30-06 and the like, a heart/lung shot produces an imediate reacton from the game - jumping and then running a short distance and expiring. The loads I use are the "in between" almost always exiting.

Shot placement is the thing that seems to hold the most "control" over how the animal reacts though.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I remember a thread on this very topic about 5 years ago or so. It might have even been on the old board. Prepare yourself for the onslaught.

I'm going to claim the middle ground before things heat up. I'll go big and moderate in speed with a controlled expansion bullet ... A-frame if you will. Something that will expand at lower velocities yet stop expanding at a certain point and retain its momentum. In other words, not shed its energy as quickly as a massively expanding bullet and therefore provide more penetration. Even in a smaller bore (if .277" is small) I like that high end bullet with those controlled expansion features.

I'm too chicken to take sides. I'm also too chicken to take something other than an optimal shot.

Down here it's mostly decent sized hogs and then deer that are smaller than most Great Danes. So I can take that middle ground without too much to worry about. It's always interesting to hear from hunters who are shooting large deer, elk, even dangerous game ... which I don't have to worry about. I think there's a lot of merit to using the big and slow if one has to take a shot where the bullet has to traverse a lot of the animal before getting to the goods.

[marlinman93]

I've hunted game for over 30 years, and done so with everything from a .22 CF to .50 caliber slow bullet. I can tell you there's a lot to be said pro for both.
I've never had an animal get away in those I've shot (Thank God!) and I've had more hit with big and slow take a 2nd shot, than I have with my .22-250 caliber. Most of my hunting has been mule deer and blacktail deer, with some elk. I'd never consider anything smaller than a .30 cal. for elk, but deer are easily taken with small fast bullets.
I've had only a few deer shot with a .30-06 or a .38-55 that took a 2nd shot, and only one with my .22-250 that took a 2nd. Any animal might take a 2nd shot, regardless of how it's placed. Some just seem to be tougher, and don't just go right down, while others take a questionable hit and drop in their tracks.
This subject is alwways controversial, as some people are just big fans of one or the other, so I'm sure we'll get a lot of good discussion on this topic.

[AJMD429]

I agree about the 'shot placement' part.

Another interesting thing is that when we've put down goats or other large animals (including a couple large dogs) with a .22 LR to the head, the animals just go limp with maybe one or two quick twitches.

On the other hand, when we've dealt with live-trapped (caught in the chicken pen) raccoons or feral cats, a .22 LR to the head results in 30 seconds or more of violent writhing and twitching. I know the brain should be totally devoid of conscious thoughts (i.e. 'suffering') at that point, but it is still disturbing to watch happen.

Even as a bit of a biologist occupationally, I'm not sure I can explain the difference. My wife says it's because cats are so stupid that destroying their brains still leaves them 90% functional...

[COSteve]

Big and slow or light and fast, it doesn't matter unless you hit where you're aiming. If you do, both will usually finish the job. So, for hunting I say shoot what you can shoot well.

[getitdone1]

Maybe some of you can give some details about how the 30-30 (30 WCF) was received by shooters when it first came on the market. Here you had a cartridge that increased the speed from the common black powder 12-1500 fps to 21-2200 fps. Pretty significant jump and I believe the 30-30 was soon found to be a real quick killer for it's size. As I recall the first commercial 30-30 used a 160 gr bullet. Don't know if it was 'hard,' 'soft,' or medium in construction.

I also recall reading about a high-speed 300 gr load for the 45-90 that was said to put game down fast. Think this was with black powder. Not sure.

Don

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Maybe some of you can give some details about how the 30-30 (30 WCF) was received by shooters when it first came on the market.

It will be interesting to see who on the board claims to have been using it at the time of introduction. I always suspected there were a few here with more than the usual amount of crust.

[JohndeFresno]

I agree about the 'shot placement' part.

Another interesting thing is that when we've put down goats or other large animals (including a couple large dogs) with a .22 LR to the head, the animals just go limp with maybe one or two quick twitches.

On the other hand, when we've dealt with live-trapped (caught in the chicken pen) raccoons or feral cats, a .22 LR to the head results in 30 seconds or more of violent writhing and twitching. I know the brain should be totally devoid of conscious thoughts (i.e. 'suffering') at that point, but it is still disturbing to watch happen.

Even as a bit of a biologist occupationally, I'm not sure I can explain the difference. My wife says it's because cats are so stupid that destroying their brains still leaves them 90% functional...

Oh, boy!

Gettin' out the nachos, jalapenos and cheese to see where this one goes! It seems to me that this "hydrostatic shock" thing, expounded upon to the extremes in the '60's, has been largely debunked with results from police shooting data and other information from the military sector. That is, what DROPS the target right now.

And Doc, I have read that the brain stays alive for a minute or two, even after decapitation - e.g. by guillotine. - ?

[Mescalero]

That's an unpleasent thought.

[KirkD]

Most of my deer have been shot with big, slow bullets. None have run further than about 80 yards and most have dropped within 5 or 10 yards. I saw a deer with its heart blown to rags by a 7 MM Rem Mag run flat out for 80 yards two years ago. I'd be inclined to say that deer shot with big slow bullets run further than those hit with fast small bullets, although that has not been my experience. I had a deer run almost 100 yards after being shot through both lungs with a 30-30 (150 grains at 2,200 fps) although that translated into only about 6 seconds. I had a black bear run 200 yards once and climb a tree after shooting him with a 303 British. I would say it is more important to hit the animal where it counts. One advantage of the slower bullets is less meat damage, maybe an inch around the hole. Regarding brain shots, I've seen lots of rabbits thrash around like crazy after a brain shot. They were dead the whole time. It has something to do with the central processor sending out garbage information down the spinal cord. They are not in pain if shot through the brain; they are dead instantly. It's just nerves. There is a difference between being decapitated (gives you a few seconds of thought to prepare to meet your Maker) and having the brain puréed by a bullet; there's nothing left to think with.

[Mike D.]

I'm an advocate of lighter .45 caliber bullets driven at HV from guns usually dedicated to big slow bullets. Give me a .45-70 or .45-90 using a 250 gr Barnes TSX at over 2000FPS anytime. The practical range is extended and the light bullets kill very fast, often with large exit wounds. Deer seldom make it beyond the point of contact and usually drop instantly. It took me some time to feel comfortable with the copper bullets, but once their excellent terminating ability was determined there was no going back. Four bucks DRN in four years.

[COSteve]

There's another option that I favor for my pistol. That's to shoot a cartridge that is big and fast! My .40 cal, 180grn 10mm load going at about 1,480fps is both large diameter, heavy, and fast.

[getitdone1]

Of course I didn't expect anyone in this group to be an eye witness to the first 30-30s on the market in 1894-95 but what I was hoping for was posts from some of you guys who've read the earlier gun writers comments about the 30-30. The "Pre-Keith, O'Connor days." Townsend Whelen is as far back as I go, for the most part.

The results with the Barnes copper 250 gr 45 cal bullet are interesting. As I said, I seen similar potential with the 45 cal 300 gr Remington HP bullets I was shooting into water jugs and cabbage. Lots of explosiveness! The head of cabbage turned-into mostly mist--perhaps more so than with my 243, 55 gr load. Have videos of both.

The 22 centerfires. I can see where they'd kill fast with heart-lung shot but if you miss that area you are probably in trouble. Of course depends on the bullet construction to a large degree. Been lots of big game killed with the 25s and, of course many, many deer killed with the 243.

I'd be interested to know what the limits are for these smaller calibers with long, strongly built bullets. I did find that the 243 with 90 gr FMJ would not penetrate water jugs nearly as well as I had expected. Even more so with the 55 gr 223. The 375, 300 gr FMJ was a totally, and I mean totally, different story! Expect I've pretty much answered my 'limit of the small bores' right here.

Appears to be an absolute fact that long, heavy bullets are a must for the really big and dangerous game. When in a bind with dangerous game I think you'd need lots of penetration from all angles.

Don

[gundownunder]

Some of the bush I've hunted in was so thick you wouldn't find an animal like a goat if it ran 8 yards let alone 80 yards. For this reason I've always been a fan of the brain shot rather than body shot, and pass up an animal if I can't hit where I want to.
Here in Oz the government mandates a brain shot with a hollowpoint bullet from a high power rifle for kangaroos, to guarantee an instant kill.
I used to harvest rabbits for a living and seen thousands of them do the dance of death with their entire brain pureed.
I once shot a feral cat through the head at 20 yards with a .22 powerpoint. He was sitting in an old crows nest about half way up a gum tree when I shot him between the eyes. He instantly turned and scrambled another 20 feet up the tree and stopped there with his claws well and truly embedded in the tree. It took a second shot up through the body to dislodge him even though the brain was mush and the first shot had been an instant kill.

Sorry for the long ramble, I guess what it boils down to is, for my kind of shooting big and slow or small and fast wouldn't make much difference.

[86er]

Personally, I dont think light fast or heavy slow are each a singular criteria. Light fast could include FMJ, "varmint" bullets, etc. Heavy slow could be 900 fps or 1900 fps and solid, cast or expanding. It could also be controlled (mechanical) expanding or soft expanding. In either catagory I would choose the expanding bullet and depending on the game and circumstance, a controlled expansion bullet most of the time. An example of this would be a 64 grain .224 bullet (223 Remington) that is somewhat heavy for caliber. With a Speer Gold Dot it is adequate to achieve penetration and expansion enough to kill a deer at moderate range. It is not my choice but it will work if applied right. If you go to a 45 grain bullet or even if stay with the 60 something grain bullet but it is of "varmint" construction it will NOT penetrate or expand enough to be reliable for deer under the same circumstance as the 64 grain. Cast bullets nearly always deform upon impact but the extent of deformation and rate changes the effect on the animal. A hard cast bullet on deer will usually punch right through and the deer will often stand there or spin in circles. Sometimes they will run until they bleed out. The same hit with an expanding bullet will create a bigger, irregular wound channel that will often have a quicker effect on the animal. Then there is the operating parameter of the bullet. If you have a bullet that works great within a velocity range but your impact velocity is outside that range the effect will not be what is otherwise typical for that bullet. An example is the 350 grain Kodiak in 45-70. At 1650 fps MV it is just outside velocity parameters past 100 yards and does not expand much. However at 1850 fps or more the bullet expand on game as light as 150 pounds just beyond 100 yards. So gettting back to the question, "How they kill", the answer is the same. They kill by lowering the animals blood pressure so that they cannot get oxygen to the brain, or by disrupting the CNS so they do not breathe or circulate blood. The moderate to heavy for caliber bullet within it's design parameters does it quickly and more dramatically by making the wound more disruptive to the life systems, and then allowing more of an equilibrium effect, the pressure inside is exposed to the pressure outside the the system tries to balance it. In other words, air in - blood out. That's one reason why and exit can kill quicker in spite of the speed in which it knocks the animal off its feet. Use the wrong bullet - one that has a shallow wound channel that seal itself and the death is slower. An arrow is heavy - and slow. But a wide broadhead kills VERY quickly in the vitals while a regular target point of the same weight kills very slowly, if at all.

[6pt-sika]

I used to be totally of the small and fast category (and still am to a certain degree) . But am now also of the big and slow , big and fast and now am delving in the small caliber large bullet slow category .

Bolt actions or single shot rifles rifles with fast jacketed bullets running at their max or close to it always seemed to kill really well when I did my part .

Most times a lever action with a relatively moderate load and jacketed bullet usually did almost as well .

Lever actions with cast bullets pushed medium velocity worked well for me . But large caliber lever guns with ANY accurate cast bullets pushed hard seemed to work better atleast for me .

Never got into the usual bolt action/single shot cartridges with cast bullets so I cannot comment on that .

Now this subsonic large weight bullet for the cartrisge has reared it's head for me to try out . Give me about 6 months and I'm quite sure I'll be ablke to give an opinion on that as well

Incidently all of this is based on use at deer or black bear .

[pokey]

The practical range

know your weapon and ammo's limits.

as 86er points out, the mechanics of death is the same, no
matter what you poke a hole with. it's range, construction of
projectile and velocity that vary. you pick the combo and try
to understand the limitations your pick creates.

fast,slow,big,small, they all work if you use them properly.

[Old Savage]

I believe there certainly is a "hydrostatic" shock factor to the light fast bullet but it depends on what that affects in the animal. In some areas it might be absorbed and in others it may just drop them. Same thing with a heart shot - if it affects the side of the heart that pumps to the lungs and back may be slow in a relative sense if it takes out the pump to the brain and the ascending aorta could be right now particularly if it sends some shock up the line and it if can shock the central nervous system that could be very quick. Depends on what is affected and how but the other descriptions are certain with time if you wreck the vital machinery but with varying effects in the short term.

These factors are also part of why police shooting statistics that just say torso hit can be very variable. Anatomy and physiology in action or inaction.

[marlinman93]

In remembering back the two most impressive kills for me on mule deer were extreme opposites of this discussion. First was a nearly 400 yd. shot with my .22-250 and a 55 gr. spirepoint at 3500 fps. The buck stood broadside (after a heart hit) for about 3 seconds, then dropped in place without taking a step.
The second was my 1889 Marlin in .38-40 with a cast 170 gr. bullet loaded to 1400 fps. Shot in the chest nearly straight on at 80 yds. and the buck reared up on his hind legs and landed on his back stone dead.
I hunted with the .22-250 for probably 15 years and took one or more deer with it every year. The last 10 years have been mostly old levers or singleshot rifles in those slow big calibers, and have been equally effective.

[madman4570]

Depends on the animal being shot.(and considering all with good shot placement)

Thin skinned medium/large sized critters like say a 160lb deer----1000lb elk ------------------medium bullet and fast speed-- (example 7mm Mag, 175gr @ 3000fps)
Bear -----------Big bullet and medium speed--- (45-70 400gr@2000fps)
Varmints-------Small bullet and fast speed---- (.243 75gr @ 3300fps)

If you are not sure what to get and want one gun for all and don't mind getting kicked just get a .300 Winchester Mag (and shoot hot loads)----everything turns red!
Not talking African Big Five for that though----well maybe the lion!
For those I got a .416 Weatherby(kicks too)

[gcs]

Like most things...it depends,

This is my experience with the 30-30 over 40 years and lots of whitetails, with similar shot placement, ie., heart/lung, ranges under 100 yds. ALL pass through's

Rem 170 Corelokts, very accurate, deer generally ran 60-80 yards, some a bit more
Win 150 Power points, very tough bullet, about as accurate, deer down usually within sight, except for one that went over 100 yds. ?? I'd expect Rem 150's as a little "softer" bullet to perform as well or better.
Hornaday 160 LE's, very accurate in my rifle, mostly bang flops.

If you shoot a lot of game you will always see exceptions, and weird stuff, shot placement is never exactly the same, or even optimal, Some deer are tougher then others, that said, I definitely have seen the difference with a lighter faster bullet IN 30-30 ONLY. All bullets did the job, the 170's usually needed a tracking job, which isn't a big deal on snow, but can be a "challenge" in thick stuff, and there is little difference in blood trail with any of the bullets. Sometimes it looks like a blood bath, others it's a drop here and there.

So.... to answer the question, yes.

[M. M. Wright]

As a young man, I lived in Utah for a while and bought a Springfield, 30-06 barreled action which I fitted with a Bishop stock. Had a set of Lyman receiver sights put on and used that rifle for several years to harvest my deer with. Usually the 150 grain bullet at the max speed I could get out of it. I remember shooting a small buck three times with it as he ran by. All three could be covered by my hand and were just behind the fore-leg and very low in the chest, (heart shots). Didn't need the last two. Soon after I bought a Remington 660 in 6mm Rem and it dropped almost everything DRT! 100 grain bullet at 3000+. You don't want to know the load.

Rebarreled the Springfield to 25-06, (a wildcat in those days) and it killed like the 6mm only had a bit more range. Still 100 grain at even more velocity. I restocked too at the time and put a thumbhole on it. Big mistake since you must first flip the safety down then put your thumb through the hole, which maybe takes half a second but, that half second is all the time it takes for a big buck to get a tree between you and him. Might not be a problem in open country but I hunt where there is a lot heavy timber.

Discovered the BLR in .308 and fell in love with that. Still have the first one and have acquired enough to gift them to all my grandsons. Also have a Browning High Wall in 30-06 that I really like. 150 grain bullets at 27-2800. Works fine.

Somewhere along the trail of life, I got to tinkering with the 45-70 and found it to be sorta limited in range but a very dependable killer. I rebarreled a Rolling Block and shot that a while until I found the Marlin 45-70s of which I think I had three. Kept letting them get away. Then several 86s in 45-70, (both Browning and Winchester) until I came down to the 86 (1916 vintage) in 45-90 which I shoot now. 300 grain bullet at about 1600 fps. It always kills if I do my part. Actually have never lost one yet 'cause it shoots real straight.

The worst killer was the 270 in the Ruger No. 1A. Had two of them. Of course it was a perfectly good rifle but I had some spectacular failures of the bullet caused by it exploding near the surface and not penetrating. I think some Nosler partitions would have cured this but I just got rid of them. Gave one to a graduating high school girl who was an avid hunter. I did load her a couple of boxes of Noslers to be sure she would use the correct bullets.

A bunch of deer downed during this lifetime. Something over 200 when I sorta lost count. To be sure, there were other calibers like my 25-35 which is sure nice to carry and shoot now that I've had both rotator cuffs repaired and now a knee scoped. Still recovering from that one.

Do most of my hunting from a permanent blind these days and like the sorta heavy and slow since the trajectory of the 45-90 is almost identical to my bullet barreled muzzle loader, (traditional styling, can't get into in-lines). Yes they run a ways but are always dead at the end of the blood trail.

[adirondakjack]

JDF, hydrostatic shock has been debunked in HANDGUN bullets up to and including the .44 manglem at most often shot speeds. Now when ya talk any riflle bullet at say 2000 fps plus, and appropriately expansive bullets for the velocity and type of game, yes, hydrostatic shock is very real.

BUT lets say .17 HMR into a deer, yer "shocking" the fat just under it's skin at best, and not where it counts... Conversely, a .50 BMG with spire point solids pokes a hole in a deer REALLY FAST but won't open, so no shocking value. The magic happens when ya get a RELIABLE energy dump in the boiler room.

Or ya can just shoot em with a big enough slug in a place that does fatal damage, and ya generally get the job done anyway. I'd opine that a .45-70 400+ grain bullet that simply pokes a hole, even at 800 fps downrange velocity is gonna ruin the day of most anything.

[getitdone1]

Lots of nice responses. Thanks to all.

M.M. Wright. Your over 200 deer kills is very impressive. I would expect there's a few other members in this group with a similar record. Lots of experienced hunters and shooters in this group which is why it's usually so rewarding to ask them questions.

I know there are some here who do not believe in 'hydrostatic shock' but I do and have for years. Your switch to 6mm and getting quick kills is an example.

I think I may have posted a similar topic some time back but sometimes the 2nd round can be as good or better. Just depends on whose responding at any given time.

Most of you recall my shooting at heads of cabbage and water jugs. I've seen, time and again, where the slow bullet had much less explosiveness than the fast bullet. No reason in the world to think the same would not be true when the bullet hits lungs and heart. Suppose you could say, 'the more you destroy and the faster you destroy it--the faster the kill.'

A real problem I can see with fast, explosive bullets is when the animal presents only a shoulder shot to you. This would indicate the need for a 'compromise bullet' and caliber and I can see where the 30 cal 150 gr bullet and 22-2800 fps gets the job done--under all conditions for deer sized animals. 30 cal offers a tremendous choice in bullet construction and weight. To my knowledge, more than any other caliber. For years I shyed-away from 30 cal. I suppose in part just to be different. I've slowly come to appreciate it a lot. Until recently I was the same with the 308 Win. cartridge. Bought a Browning BLR, 308 about a year ago and am now a big fan of both gun and cartridge.

Concerning big bores: In the old days when some families depended greatly on wild animal meat the old, long, heavy bullet that would penetrate and kill from all angles had to be greatly appreciated. If your family is low on meat and all you get is a shot at the animals rear-end--you want lots of penetration. My tests indicate that the old, slow 45-70 400 gr load is a great penetrator.

Don

[rimrock]

Apparently, it boils down to the circumstances on a given day with a given gun. Recently. LEOs hit a BG about 17 times--4-5 .223 and rest 9mm or .40S&W. BG had a headache after arrest. My in-laws have been on an Alaskan river when another fisherman killed a griz with 10 shots of 9mm, with last one placed with the bear about a foot from the shooter. Lots of poaching done with .22LR, lots of wounded game too. A hog hit towards the back of its lungs, no matter the caliber will likely run awhile as the critter has more blood volume than expected. If it's your time to harvest a game animal, you will. Good thing for awhile, maybe a short while, we can still choose our firearms.

rimrock

[FWiedner]

Surely any given bullet can effectively kill any chosen animal given a well placed shot, but when you pull the trigger, what do you want to happen next? What do you expect to find when you recover your game? Are you surpised at what your bullet has done or do you find expected performance?

Different bullets are designed to do different things, to fly farther or faster, to penetrate more deeply or strike a surface and stop, to open slowly or explosively at different controlled velocities, or not at all.

Do you simply want a thing large or small dead, or are you trying to harvest a maximum yield of meat or preserve a valued skin or pelt? Do you want your quarry to pop like a balloon, or to lie down down peacefully and expire?

You can make your own choice, by selecting a cartridge and bullet appropriate to your desired terminal performance.

All bullets of the general categories 'small and fast' or 'big and slow' do not do the same thing as every other bullet of the same general category.

[JohndeFresno]

JDF, hydrostatic shock has been debunked in HANDGUN bullets up to and including the .44 manglem at most often shot speeds. Now when ya talk any riflle bullet at say 2000 fps plus, and appropriately expansive bullets for the velocity and type of game, yes, hydrostatic shock is very real...

A-Jack - Caught your post - studied and noted. Yes, most of my real world info and anecdotes center on the handgun, and specifically as it applies to stopping 2 legged varmints. And many of the military failures these last several years, with the .223, might be attributed to the use of non-HP military rounds. Thank you for your elucidation!

[madman4570]

Surely any given bullet can effectively kill any chosen animal given a well placed shot, but when you pull the trigger, what do you want to happen next? What do you expect to find when you recover your game? Are you surpised at what your bullet has done or do you find expected performance?

Different bullets are designed to do different things, to fly farther or faster, to penetrate more deeply or strike a surface and stop, to open slowly or explosively at different controlled velocities, or not at all.

Do you simply want a thing large or small dead, or are you trying to harvest a maximum yield of meat or preserve a valued skin or pelt? Do you want your quarry to pop like a balloon, or to lie down down peacefully and expire?

You can make your own choice, by selecting a cartride and bullet appropriate to your desired and expected terminal performance.

All bullets of the general categories 'small and fast' or 'big and slow' do not do the same thing as every other bullet of the same general category.

Very true!

A case crammed(compressed load) with 83.0 grs of Reloader 25 into a 300 Win Mag(model 70 26" barrel)tossing a 180 Nosler at 3300fps ruins the whole front half of a deer.
Last one a shot(a big 10pt about 170lbs dressed)big for up here from 60yds there actually was this red haze around deer at impact.
When I walked up to it and looked at what it done(damage)I could not believe it. Brought the true meaning of sayings "smoked em"/ wasted em.
Didn't travel forward 1ft. Huge difference from the 30-06 results I have had with same bullets.

[Canuck Bob]

I used a 243 on deer, a 7mm Mag for big game, and a 303 before settling on a 444 in the 70s shooting 265 gr bullets. I found what worked for me in the large bore Express caliber. I mean Express as a large bore medium weight bullet at a good clip. This is Ken Waters definition not mine. It worked as well as a 7MM Nosler Partition to 200 yards on moose. It killed much better than the popular gun press would have you believe. It also allowed less meat damage, one could "eat right to the hole".

I recently considered real heavy weight 444 hard cast but settled on a 285 gr mold instead. There is quite a following of folks who have good results with large bore large meplat (flat nose) on hard cast bullets. I think it arose out of the success handgun hunters had with these bullets at their velocities.

This topic is a source of disagreement often. Any big game caliber with the right bullet design for the target will do the job well. If long range is the goal then the spitzer designed rockets are almost necessary. I've always hunted with heavy for caliber bullets in the smaler bore because I hunted mixed game country all my life, deer, moose, and bears.

I will ruffle a few feathers here but when I tried the 243 on big prairie grain fed whitetails in Saskatchewan I was dissappinted. It was a scoped BLR with Partition handloads. It was only two deer but bullet placement was ideal and the range was moderate. The 7MM Mag in a peep sighted Rem 700 just seemed a lot of fuss and face slapping for my application. However one moose with Partitions again sure dropped dead but it was close and a lot of meat was ruined.

[Old Ironsights]

...There is quite a following of folks who have good results with large bore large meplat (flat nose) on hard cast bullets. I think it arose out of the success handgun hunters had with these bullets at their velocities.
...

That's got me pegged. My 180gr .357 boolit has a 72% meplat ...

[tman]

The more game I shoot over the years, and the more that I've seen shot, I gotta say in my experience, Shoot placement trumps everything. Caliber choice is more of a personal choice. Some dudes like big and beautiful girls, some like em slim and sweet. Common sense and range limitations go along with it. A .243 will kill an elk as dead as a 300 magnum. The 300 lets reach out a little more.

[Malamute]

...The worst killer was the 270 in the Ruger No. 1A. Had two of them. Of course it was a perfectly good rifle but I had some spectacular failures of the bullet caused by it exploding near the surface and not penetrating. I think some Nosler partitions would have cured this but I just got rid of them. Gave one to a graduating high school girl who was an avid hunter. I did load her a couple of boxes of Noslers to be sure she would use the correct bullets....

I'm curious about the weight and type of the 270 bullets that failed so badly.

A friend uses the 270 on elk and has had good results with it. He uses only 150 gr Nosler Partitions.

[getitdone1]

A kind of 'sub-topic' comes to mind and that is what cartridges are too 'light' for elk?

Way back in the 60s I had an old Winchester model 70 in 257 Roberts and a gunsmith who worked on the trigger of that gun said he knew of a guy who killed an elk every year with that cartridge.

I have no doubt at all that some here have had good success with the 243 on elk while others would be against using it for that purpose. Even against using the 257 or 270. One great advantage of the fast cartridges is they will do better for long shots and if the bullet is built strong enough they'll do for close-in too.

I'm pleased to hear about the old, slower cartridges definitely getting the job done with not all that much tracking needed.

I would expect for the longer shots the fast, flat shooting guns/cartridges are going to give the quickest kills and by quite a bit. Add a scope to the gun for more accuracy and this is even more true.

At first thought one might think that scoped guns have made more humane kills possible but when you think of all the people who use the scope as an excuse to shoot at game too far out--then maybe we've not gained too much in the humane department.

Don

[FWiedner]

A kind of 'sub-topic' comes to mind and that is what cartridges are too 'light' for elk?

Way back in the 60s I had an old Winchester model 70 in 257 Roberts and a gunsmith who worked on the trigger of that gun said he knew of a guy who killed an elk every year with that cartridge.

I have no doubt at all that some here have had good success with the 243 on elk while others would be against using it for that purpose. Even against using the 257 or 270. One great advantage of the fast cartridges is they will do better for long shots and if the bullet is built strong enough they'll do for close-in too.

I'm pleased to hear about the old, slower cartridges definitely getting the job done with not all that much tracking needed.

I would expect for the longer shots the fast, flat shooting guns/cartridges are going to give the quickest kills and by quite a bit. Add a scope to the gun for more accuracy and this is even more true.

At first thought one might think that scoped guns have made more humane kills possible but when you think of all the people who use the scope as an excuse to shoot at game too far out--then maybe we've not gained too much in the humane department.
Don

I would suggest that most bolt gun afficionados use both characteristics of flat-shooting fast cartriges and telescopic sights to make attempts at shots on game that are both poor excuses for hunting and inhumane for the purpose.

Not all, because there are some very fine hunters and some very skilled marksmen wandering the vale. I will, however, stand behind my broad-brush and my estimate of "most."

Let's just say that a guy swinging around one of those pieces of uber-mag drain-pipe has to demonstrate to me that he knows how to use it.

[Canuck Bob]

Best for elk!

I have some experience with elk, mostly moose, and would offer that elk are tough as nails compared to moose. The real experienced guys may have a clearer opinion though.

When I think of these discussions I always think the 30-06 is never a mistake as a yardstick to compare other rounds with. I love my old 32 Special but would always take the 444 for moose or elk to 200 yards. Todays game tends to be fairly gun shy and often longer ranges result.

A large number of locals who have hunted large game a lot like the 300 and 338 Magnums, specially in grizzly country. These calibers require some training to master in my opinion. But can anyone find fault with a reason to shoot a bunch. When I hunted a lot I shot all the time and nothing boosts the confidence like total familiarity with your gun, 30-30 or 338 Mag.

[BigSky56]

One of the things Ive noticed about the mag craze is a once a year hunter/shooter thinks that so long as its between the back line and belly line the mag will knock em down just get them bounching crosshairs on the elk
I hunt with a few guys their artillery runs from a 250 sav, 300 sav, 35 rem and 405 win I use a 30-30 & 300 sav and occasionally a 348, none of us try long shots, rear end shots we pick a spot and slip a bullet in and get out the skinning knives.
The lighter calibers make for better shooting in my opinion. We've all heard the question what caliber should I get for my wife, girlfreind or kids to shoot a elk and the answer always is oh get a 257, 260, 308,708, 7x57 or a 6.5 swede well if its good enough for the girls and kids its good enough for the boys too. How much better is your shooting with a 22 rimfire or 22 centerfire compared to your 300-340 mags go about half way in between and you will kill more game with less shots too. danny

[Canuck Bob]

One of the things Ive noticed about the mag craze is a once a year hunter/shooter thinks that so long as its between the back line and belly line the mag will knock em down just get them bounching crosshairs on the elk ....

This is certainly my take. The ranges are full of guys who go on and on about MOA from a bench. How about minute of moose with muskeg to your knees and freezing fingers! Or a big bull elk hightailing into some black timber in a snow storm. In Canada until the magnum craze the 303 was considered ideal for moose to 200 yards with 215 gr bullets. I don't usually recommend it but the 30-30 and 32 Special team dropped trainloads of moose and elk.