W/W lead ???

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Nath
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W/W lead ???

Post by Nath »

Yes I know an old question and I should and probably do know the answers but I had some tyres fitted today and asked casually how long it takes them to fill a bucket with wheel weights, about two weeks which was a :shock: to me. Any ways I,m going back in two weeks to see whats available and so I would be making my first step to casting my own bullets, well at least procuring some material.
So how does W/W lead do on game? This is quite important should some geek argue that I,m not useing expanding ammo on game etc.
Bearing in mind I shoot a 30/30 trapper what speed will W/W go to?
I would love to avoid gas checks and would experiment with paper card wads or paper filler depending on powder capacity and/or the bullet being to deep in the neck. I have read of the gurus on here using plastic gas checks glued in place and would consider this method if card did not cut it.
Is it a simple matter of seperating the hot gases from the bullets heel or is it a friction thing?
When you cast W/W how does it shrink or what I mean is- what allowance do you have to make or are molds made wellover size so you have to size down?
Is there any easy home makerble lubes as in my olive oil/bees wax lubes for M/L use?
I,m in no rush but can see a need one day as the imported stuff from your way is just getting to darn much .
Many thanks Nath.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Others will answer the WW in the 30-30 question, but I will say that you should be very careful across the pond in sorting ZINC wheel weights from Lead Alloy weights. From what I understand, Europe is using much more Zinc than the US for their WWs.

The easiest way to do this is to have a lead thermometer and keep your melt temperatures around 650deg F.

Zinc melts at somthing like 780, so it will float on top of a 650deg melt and you can skim the "bad" WWs off.

If you don't, and you get the melt up to 800 and the Zinc melts, it will alloy with the lead and make it useless for bullet casting.

I like to keep my melts small (about 2qts) to keep from messing up the alloy.

I use a simple one burner propane cooker and a 2 qt saucepan for WWs and pour the clean alloy into a 4x1lb Lyman Ingot mould.

Clean ingots store ever so much easier than buckets of WWs, and you can do small melts on the patio without annoying the neighbors too much.
Last edited by Old Ironsights on Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tycer »

Kind regards,
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Post by Nath »

Thanks Old Irons, did not think of that one :roll:
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Post by Nath »

Wow Tycer, thats alot of scary imfo, at first glance it looks mighty scary. I will have to study that. Thanks for the link.
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Post by WCF3030 »

Nath,

I've been trying to make this casting stuff as easy as possible. I'm casting for my 30-30 as well with WW.

From what I've gathered and already done is this.
Smelt your WW in a seperate furnace or pot to make ignots.
I just came in from smealting.
What I did was went to goodwill and found a beat up cast skillet for $2 and some muffin tins for $.80 each.
I then welded a steel rod to the skillet got a fire going and melted my WW.
I had asked on another forum how to tell the difference between lead and zinc ww.
I was told to scrape the ww on some concrete. If it writes on paper it is lead. Zinc will not.
I do use gas checks. I've heard several times if your going to go past 1600fps useing ww then you need a GC.
The mold I've settled on is the Lyman 311041. It a 173gr bullet with a big metplate. I've gotton some good groups with it and will be shooting more here soon.
I use the Lee alox lube. There is a homemade lube version over at cast boolits.com.
Good luck.

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Post by AmBraCol »

Another good source of cast bullet information is the CB-L list on yahoogroups.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CB-L/


There's a wealth of information in the archives. And a lot of guys willing to answer all kinds of questions. It helps if you address specific issues and do your homework first. For bullet lube, search their database for "bullet lube" and you'll come up with a wealth of information. There's also some guys from your side of the pond on the list, perhaps near to you. Obtain a copy of Lyman's castbullet book as that's a great starting point in the casting game.
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Chuck 100 yd
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Post by Chuck 100 yd »

Yes, watch out for zink!! Bill Ferguson (the antimony man) said in the latest Fouling Shot that Zink will alloy with lead at 604 deg.F and that lead with 3% antimony will start to melt at 490F and all antiomny will be in solution by 515F. It is best to smelt your wheel weights at as low a temp as possible.
WW bullets make fine hunting bullets and may be even better if 50% pure lead is added to the ww along with some tin (1% or so, I use closer to 2% tin) You dont need more than 1600 fps velocity to make a good hunting load. IMHO :)
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Chuck 100 yd wrote:Yes, watch out for zink!! Bill Ferguson (the antimony man) said in the latest Fouling Shot that Zink will alloy with lead at 604 deg.F and that lead with 3% antimony will start to melt at 490F and all antiomny will be in solution by 515F. It is best to smelt your wheel weights at as low a temp as possible.
WW bullets make fine hunting bullets and may be even better if 50% pure lead is added to the ww along with some tin (1% or so, I use closer to 2% tin) You dont need more than 1600 fps velocity to make a good hunting load. IMHO :)
Really?

I have a handful of Zinc WWs that most certainly did NOT melt at 600-650 deg, much less alloy.

I agree that keeping your smelt as cold as possible at the "cleaning" stage is best, but I've NEVER run across anyone who claims Zinc-or a mostly-zinc ww alloy will melt/alloy at less than 700deg...

Things might be different with an already alloyed Zn/Pb/Sb/Sn/As matrix, but I don't know of any WWs that have been recycled that way.

Mixing the Zinc with the lead messes up things too much even for commercial recyclers.
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Post by Tycer »

Old Ironsights wrote:
Chuck 100 yd wrote:Yes, watch out for zink!! Bill Ferguson (the antimony man) said in the latest Fouling Shot that Zink will alloy with lead at 604 deg.F and that lead with 3% antimony will start to melt at 490F and all antiomny will be in solution by 515F. It is best to smelt your wheel weights at as low a temp as possible.
WW bullets make fine hunting bullets and may be even better if 50% pure lead is added to the ww along with some tin (1% or so, I use closer to 2% tin) You dont need more than 1600 fps velocity to make a good hunting load. IMHO :)
Really?

I have a handful of Zinc WWs that most certainly did NOT melt at 600-650 deg, much less alloy.
I float mine too. 650º
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Chuck 100 yd
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Post by Chuck 100 yd »

OI and Tycer, I was just repeating what I read last night in the Fouling Shot and Bill is the CERTIFIED metals man. He did not say that Zink wheel weights would melt at 604F but that Zink will alloy with WW lead at that temp.
Could it be that the Zink WW`s are not pure Zink? At any rate if I find a WW (and I have) that looks funny I pitch it!!! :x
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Not saying he doesn't know what he's talking about, but it's the first I've heard of it.

Could it be that he's saying that, once melted (at 780) pure zinc will alloy with Pb all the way down to 604 - i.e. the practical initial melting temp of Pb/WW?

That seems logical, because FWIU the alloying can't really take place until solidification begins - which would be at the lower limit of the metal in which it is mixed. Until then, the higher melting temp metal is held in molecular suspension along with the lower temp metal as a matter of volume.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Nath, here's a good link for you.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpos ... ostcount=9

Poster is from Finland. From what he says, EU mandated "non-lead" for new WW about 2 years ago.

The Queen's Country may be different. Y'all do still use the Pound after all... :wink:
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Post by Chuck 100 yd »

OI , That could be. He also said that as the melt warms that zink and other unwanted metals ( including your tin I assume) can be skimed off until it reaches alloy temp.
He said that pure lead ( what some used metals dealers call pure) can have as many as 20 other metals in them.
I have purchased Doe Run pure from Bill for ML amd BP cartridge base metal. It is 99.97% pure from the Doe Run mine and smelter.
Interesting sideline : lead from the Doe Run mine was used in the revolutionary war. :D
Last edited by Chuck 100 yd on Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ysabel Kid »

[quote="Old Ironsights"]
Poster is from Finland. From what he says, EU mandated "non-lead" for new WW about 2 years ago. quote]

Uhh... do folks in the EU chew on wheel-weights quite a bit? Do they let their kids gnaw on car tires while in a parking lot? Only reason I can see for banning lead in W-W's!!! :?
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Post by 20cows »

BTW, I'm not familiar with plastic gas checks.


All I've used were copper and were installed while running the bullets through a sizing die. My water-dropped W-W gas-checked 30-30 bullets have not had a problem at 1950+ fps.

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Post by Nath »

Many many thanks for all the replys guys, you know I have got a funny feeling that they are zinc based now as the guy at the shop mentioned that to :? Oh yeah kids love nothing better than to suck on W/weights! When they find out they been messed with they will scream and scream :roll: I,m so glad big bro takes so much care of us, I can,t wait for him to realise that driving a car or riding a motorcycle is dangerous or standing on a chair to change a light bulb!!!!!
Perhaps I should join a M/L club, get me a trad rifle with a twist that can throw a conical as well, obtain some soft lead and just use it on game and say nothing, what do you think?
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Actually, you shouldn't have to join a Trad club to get access to pure/raw lead.

Looky this:

Image

Image

Image

This was my (hopefully last) "Big Dirty Smelt" wherein I melted down 650lbs of old Church Roof Lead, Lead Water Pipe, keel weights, and asorted other nasty grunge into nice shiny pure lead ingots.

Image

I would venture that you might be able to find a few old buildings around your neck of the woods :wink: that still have lead flashing or even lead roof sheathing & plumbing (consider the origin of the periodic for lead - pb - plumbus/plumbum... gotta love them Romans, they even built you a nice wall...)

Once you have Pure, you can buy Tin and/or the other metals to make the verious alloys. Remember, most of the alloys are 90%+ pure lead.

Swing by http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php for lots more info on how/where to scrounge Tin (babbit from scrapyards is a good place) and other additives.
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Post by Ysabel Kid »

OI -

I am so incredibly jealous... :D
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Post by Nath »

Old Irons thats pretty impressive Sir. I did not mean to join a club to access lead but to access a grant from big brother to obtain a Muzzle loader for target shooting and then use it on game secretly :cry:
I don,t live in a country that is free just says it is see.
Respect to you Sir :)
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Post by AmBraCol »

Nath wrote: I don,t live in a country that is free just says it is see.
You're not the only one, Nath. When one looks at the freedom that was from "sea to shining sea" just forty years ago compared to the pitiful shadow thereof that is left to us, it's enough to make one cry. But then I get called a pot stirrer for suggesting that perhaps it's time to start demanding they return or freedoms to us.

What's with the type of bullets needed for hunting over there? They HAVE to be expanding, or NON expanding?
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Nath wrote:Old Irons thats pretty impressive Sir. I did not mean to join a club to access lead but to access a grant from big brother to obtain a Muzzle loader for target shooting and then use it on game secretly :cry:
I don,t live in a country that is free just says it is see.
Respect to you Sir :)
Yah. At least the Crown really makes no pretense if you pay attention.

As long as you are called "Subjects" you are, well, "subjects". :evil:

Unfortunately the US tells us "freemen" that we aren't "subjects", but that we must still BE subject.

I'd almost rather they stopped lying to us and called us the Subjects they think we are. :cry:

If you don't need the "permission" to smelt lead, then skip the Muzzleloader thing (unless you want to play with Bess) and just find as much old lead scrap as you can and make your own alloy.

FWIW, here is my "low temp" "mini-smelt" setup. I did 35 lbs of finished ingots (12qt of WWs, 4qt clean melt) in 2 hrs (from setup to "wife clean")

The nice thing about the cheap cooker is that it will NEVER heat 2qt of molten lead to over 700 F.

ImageImage
(like cooking string beans...)
ImageImage
Proper Temp makes nice ingots. (the volume of ingots is roughly 1/2 the volume of WWs... That stock-pot was full of WWs when I started.)
Image
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LEAD

Post by HEAD0001 »

IMO it is really a simple process. Just add your WW in to a pot and constantly skim the garbage off the top. When your pot get's close to full, flux it twice, then pour 1/2 to 3/4 of the pot into ingot's. It only takes a few seconds for lead to melt in a hot pot. Skim everything else off and do not worry about the Zinc-it will skim off with all the other junk. Repeat.

As far as velocity is concened I believe there are a few things you should concern yourself with.
1. Make sure you clean all the copper(all) out of your bore.

2. Give your bore a good polishing, I use JB bore polish.

3. Size your bullets to .001 to .002 over bore, use a good lube. I like Carnuba Red.

4. Cast a heavy for caliber bullet-in 30-30 I would cast a 180, and would not be afraid of a 200 grain pill.

5. Allow your bullet's to sit for at least 30 day's before loading.

6. IMO if you follow these above steps then you should be able to push your bullet's up to 1800 fps, without major leading problem's, and with no GC.

7. Do not pay any atterntion to what anybody say's, when they say WW will not kill deer. Just shoot your deer with it, and go pick it up. It amazes me when people say WW is no good for deer, then they go out and shoot a deer with a pure lead round ball(but WW will not hold together)?? Tom.
Last edited by HEAD0001 on Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Especially if you water-quench...
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Innovative tricks for cast bullet shooting

Post by LeverBob »

Nath, old boy!....Paco (that brilliant genius) gave us all a trick we would well do to remember, no matter where we are in this world. Here it is:
Instead of using an expensive copper gas check, use a wad punched out of stryofoam meat trays from the supermarket. You can sharpen an old case to make a wad cutter with a champhering tool. Drill the primer end out to accomodate a punch to push them out. Rub some chassis grease into the wad before you seat the bullet or just add a small dab ( tenth of a grain befoe you seat the bullet.
I have driven my cast wad cutter loads to std. velocities with no leading.
By the way, this is the Holy Grail of shooters forums. All of the advice you get from here is the best.
(From an old guy cast shooter for over 50 yrs.) :wink:

I'm at the point where I refuse to pay the extreme prices asked for Hornady checks. $25.US for 1m. That is obscene.

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Re: Innovative tricks for cast bullet shooting

Post by WCF3030 »

LeverBob wrote:Nath, old boy!....Paco (that brilliant genius) gave us all a trick we would well do to remember, no matter where we are in this world. Here it is:
Instead of using an expensive copper gas check, use a wad punched out of stryofoam meat trays from the supermarket. You can sharpen an old case to make a wad cutter with a champhering tool. Drill the primer end out to accomodate a punch to push them out. Rub some chassis grease into the wad before you seat the bullet or just add a small dab ( tenth of a grain befoe you seat the bullet.
I have driven my cast wad cutter loads to std. velocities with no leading.
By the way, this is the Holy Grail of shooters forums. All of the advice you get from here is the best.
(From an old guy cast shooter for over 50 yrs.) :wink:

I'm at the point where I refuse to pay the extreme prices asked for Hornady checks. $25.US for 1m. That is obscene.

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LeverBob
I'm going to try that this week! That and casting my own will cut my expensies at least 2/3.
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Post by Nath »

Thanks for all your replies, it makes for interesting reading.
W30/30 please let me know how it goes and all the details when you try the "Paco cookie" thing.
AmBraCol, They have to be expanding ammo over here but for some reason they (big brother ) who controlls the gun licences over here don,t think that lead makes bullets expanderble :roll: I have argued with them many times pointing out that the common material used in an expanding bullet is lead but they still would not let me have a Patch ball M/L. In a nut shell they are just stupid over here- more interested in being a subject than some one with a brain :roll:
Many thanks guys ,Nath.
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Post by AmBraCol »

Nath wrote:They have to be expanding ammo over here but for some reason they (big brother ) who controlls the gun licences over here don,t think that lead makes bullets expanderble :roll: I have argued with them many times pointing out that the common material used in an expanding bullet is lead but they still would not let me have a Patch ball M/L. In a nut shell they are just stupid over here- more interested in being a subject than some one with a brain :roll:

Hmmm.... there's no arguing with bureaucrats. Do they accept cast hollow points as expandable bullets for hunting purposes?
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Post by Old Ironsights »

You could always put a hollowpoint pin in your mould... :twisted:

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCastHollowPoints30-30.htm

Here ya go Nath: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.e ... t=11082005

I'll probably catch hell for this, but I'm thinking of getting one and making one cavity a plain-base HP and leaving the other one alone.
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Post by CanadianCowboy »

darn I thought my stack of muffins and ingots was impressive, OldIronsights sure humbles (though ti is good for man to be humbled [:)])
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Post by Old Ironsights »

CanadianCowboy wrote:darn I thought my stack of muffins and ingots was impressive, OldIronsights sure humbles (though ti is good for man to be humbled [:)])
I am but an unworthy Grasshopper to the Masters at Castboolits. They would flog me mercilessly for how much I paid for that scrap...

Plus, I only smelt 50-100lbs of WWs at a time (the "big, dirty pb melt" was an exception.)

99% of the time, if I cant ingotize it in 2hrs, (about 33lbs) I don't do it. :oops:
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Post by Ysabel Kid »

Old Ironsights wrote: Keeping "She who must be Obeyed" happy means the entire Smelting setup fits in a Tote...
Is "She who must be Obeyed" every happy? :shock: If so, what is your secret? :wink:
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Post by Nath »

Would I be right in thinking that I could use a soft Pb bullet in 45/70 if I used BP and appro lube?
Is that what Big nose Kate likes?
Scott, can you give me the trajectory of Kate to 150yds please Sir?
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Ysabel Kid wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: Keeping "She who must be Obeyed" happy means the entire Smelting setup fits in a Tote...
Is "She who must be Obeyed" every happy? :shock: If so, what is your secret? :wink:
I've not met too many wimmin types who are happy with smelting at ALL, but being able to make it all "dissappear" into a tote on a shelf keeps it from ending up in the recycle bin... :wink:
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CanadianCowboy
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Post by CanadianCowboy »

Old Ironsights wrote:
Ysabel Kid wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: Keeping "She who must be Obeyed" happy means the entire Smelting setup fits in a Tote...
Is "She who must be Obeyed" every happy? :shock: If so, what is your secret? :wink:
I've not met too many wimmin types who are happy with smelting at ALL, but being able to make it all "dissappear" into a tote on a shelf keeps it from ending up in the recycle bin... :wink:

my wife does not dislike it, heck I have a tiger torch going in the back yard right now as we speak, smelting around 100 pounds of WW a night until it gets dark


I am sure she will complain one day though so I figure I will get it all out of the way asap [:D]
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