Barnes TSX for the 375 Win (updated)

[handirifle]

Cool!

Tycer, my cheerleader!

Thanks, I made some more progress today, but no pics yet. Got another hurdle to jump. If I don't trip and fall on my face with it, I will post pics of it when it's done.

[handirifle]

Some new developments in this project. I have never stopped looking for a "ready made" bullet for the 375 Win that is usable in the lever rifle. In that search, I came across Cutting Edge Bullets and they do have a 235gr bullt suitable for a levergun BUT it is made of brass, and I just learned that brass contains more than 1% lead, so is not suitable in CA. I wrote them an email, and it was through them that I learned that fact.

I will paste in the email that I sent them, and their response. It is encouraging a little anyway. So here it is. Oh, by the way, they are pricey.

My letter

Good morning,
I was looking over your web site last night and tried to send an email, but I got the news this morning that it failed to send, so I will try again. I am interested in your 375 cal bullets, but it would be for my Winchester lever action rifle in 375 Win caliber. I believe the 270gr bullet you offer would not work, in my case. It would be too long and take up too much powder space in the cartridge, as the case is only 2.02" long with a overall length around 2.53" max in order to function in the rifle. However, if the bullet could be shortened to about a 220gr with a flat base, I believe it would work. I would not need the plastic tips, but I do like the wide hollow point you offer.

I am also a little concerned about the minimum velocity required for the hollow point to work as designed. For example, if the ballistic coefficient of your bullet is, say .220, and it was pushed to about 2200-2250fps, for a 220gr bullet, then at 200yds the retained velocity would be a little over 1600fps. Would it still function properly at that velocity?

Also, since I live and hunt in the California Condor zone, where lead free bullets are required, I can see that you have submitted other caliber bullets for certification. If you could make this bullet to my requested design, would you submit this caliber also?

Would there be an additional charge for the design I have mentioned, and if so, how much? They are already a little pricey, so it is important.

Thank you

Scott Lewis

Their response

Scott,

None of the Brass bullets are yet approved for use in the Condor zone. We are submitting to see if they will make an exception since the lead they contain as part of the brass mixture would not be easily digestible. If CA does not approve the bullets made out of the C360 brass we are going to make a line of bullet out of copper of a very similar design that will function like the DGBR and Raptor bullets do. We will most likely make them to the Raptor design and we may make a couple of different weight .375 bullets. One will be a 230 grain like the current brass version and one would be lighter. The BC on this type of bullet is not very high like you mentioned but they are very effective until they drop below 1600fps. When we make the copper version we will need to do extensive testing all over again to see how far the velocity can drop and still function properly. With the copper version we will need to change the hollow point configuration so it is going to take some development. We are also contemplating making a much smaller rounded tip to help magazine feeding that will boost the BC somewhat and still be suitable for lever guns. That would probably be the bullet for you since the effective range will definitely increase. Please hang in there a little while and check back in a month or so. We may have an answer on the brass by then. We would then offer a high BC tip and a lower BC tip.

Thanks





Daniel J. Smitchko
President
djsmitchko@cuttingedgebullets.com
http://www.cuttingedgebullets.com
Phone: (814)345-6690 ext. 203
Fax: (814)345-6506


I will notify him that I posted this here, and that I encouraged anyone looking for a 375 levergun bullet for CA to contact him about it. All of their bullets are CNC machined, so it may be possible for just about any caliber or dia, worth a letter to find out.




One another note, I made some more progress with the Barnes bullets. Using a combination of my old technique of cutting and drilling, AND using the new nose forming die I made. I now have a 190gr bullet that fully functions in the rifle and has a sleeker nose profile than before. Gonna see if I can repeat it every time before I post pics, but I am hopeful.

Back on the TSX Trail

Well, as mentioned in the last post, I have been able to effectively use the nose forming die I made, to streamline the nose a bit. I have no idea what the BC would be on this bullet, but it has to be better than 1/4" hole it had in the front, before. This opening is about half of that.

I took some pics, but forgot to take one of the bullet only. You can imagine what the shank of the bullet looks like, since that is all that is buried in the case. I have tried in the past to achieve this type of profile in the nose by using the lathe, but since I am not a machinist, and I have no CNC machine in the shop, it was never repeatable, not for me anyway. The next step was boring a bigger hole in the nose, but I didn't like the big open sail in the front of the bullet. It's not like the 375 Win pushes these things out at 3000fps or anything, so they need all the help they can get.

These started life as a 235gr TSX, with the tip cut off to 1.00" and then the tip is squared up in the lathe, then the existing hollow point is opened up to 11/64, just shy of 1/4", and drilled 5/16" deep. This nets me a 190gr bullet with a decent nose profile.

I have these loaded with 35gr of H4198. This is well below the max charge for a 200gr bullet, which is, I believe, 38.5gr compressed. I couldn't even get 36gr in the case without making it bulge from compression, so I ended up backing it back down to 35gr.

Sadly, I only had 14 of these bullets left, from all the screwing up I did. Oh well, 2/3 of a box isn't too bad when it comes to experimenting like this. I will try to get to the range in the next few days, and test them for accuracy and velocity. I also loaded up 5 of the Hornady conversions I made, that are filled with the bizmuth/solder combo. These weigh in at around 230gr and are loaded with 32gr of H4198.

I need to load up some more of the Hornady bullets, to set my sights. All testing will be done with factory iron sights, at 50yds. If results are favorable, and I have enough ammo, I might shoot a group at 100yds. As a side note, currently is still a bit touchy to get the weights to match as closely as I like, but I will keep plugging away with that part. I will test them in my scientific expansion media (dirt) but since I only have these few, and their loaded will full charges, I'd like to do some accuracy testing. If the 94BB rifle hates the Barnes bullets, there isn't much sense in doing more developing of THESE bullets, for me anyway. If that is the case, I will pursue my own bullet. For any interested, I am still working on developing my partitioned bullet with the bizmuth core.Since the bizmuth is a bit brittle, I have mixed it with lead free solder, but if it's in the partition, it will be protected and can stay pure. Weighs more that way! I am not sure if that will be left hollow point, or be filled with a biz/sol mix. More on that one when my partition cores arrive.

Here's the pictures I took.







This project is finally falling into the "fun" category since I am beginning to see some real progress, in my knowledge, skill, and the outcomes. More to come!

[Old Savage]

Sent them a letter as you suggested. I suppose anyone else's input may also be helpful.

I have been following the discussion on Leverguns.com regarding leadless bullets for the 375 to use in a Marlin in the Ca. Condor zone. Last year I used a 45/70 and a 243 with Barnes bullets. We have found that these bullets can be light for caliber and work better than the standard bullets likely due to velocity and weight retention and their toughness. The 85 gr 243 bullet worked great at 50 yds and 275 yds. We have seen that the Barnes 45-70 bullets work better at higher velocity. My 300 gr loads at 1750 fps impact did not perform as well on deer as another fellow’s 250s at over 2000 fps. Air is dry here and higher velocity and thinner air lean toward a hollow point that favors opening vs BC.

Just providing input and expressing interest here for something we have already done and would like to be able to use the 375 for. I would think the a 180 to 200 gr bullet would be best for deer. Thanks for your efforts.

[handirifle]

Savage
input and feedback is always appreciated and encouraged. Depending on how these perform, accuracy wise, i want to help other here in the land of the lead free, be able to use their leverguns ax well. There are a couple production issues i need to iron out, so it doesn't take forever and a day to modify them. Once i get that figured i will be happy to assist other folks.

I shot my deer this year with a 308 bolt gun using the lead free Nosler, and of course didnt recover the bullet even from a 180yd shot, so i have no doubt about the "lighter than lead" performance. Impact velocity is critical on these monolithic bullets. That has been a major design issue for me as well. I am optimistic about how these will perform. Time will tell.

[handirifle]

OK, just got a new box of 235's, thanks to Carl, and using a new method to cut the tips off, I got 16 of them cut to approximate length, in about 10 minutes. Thats the fastest that has ever gone, some things are getting better. The slowsown was to chuck them in the lathe toget them to matched length. There has to be a quicker way, I will figure it out soon.

I did install a drill stop on my hollow point drill bit ( I call it that cause that's how I make it a hollow point ) so I am getting consistant depth every time. When I get them cut to length, they come out at 217gr +- .5gr, and then drilled out they will come down to 190gr +- .5gr. Below are picks of the steps the bullets go through.

From left to right, the oiginal bullet, 235gr Barnes TSX, then cut to 1.00", then drilled out 5/16" deep with a 15/64" drill, then rounded over in the nose forming die, and finally loaded into the mighty 375 Winchester case.... .


Here is a closeup of the three last steps of the bullet itself. It give you an idea how large the hollow point actually is. Today I will load up some low velocity test loads for expansion testing. I wwill shoot (pun intended) for about 1400-1500fps. Shooting into the ground, like I do for testing, I have noticed the Barnes bullets, true to their nature, seem to go deeper than anything else I have tested so far. Some of the steps I have mede consistently repeatable, but still is pretty time consuming. Right now, it's a labor of love, but if one were to try this as a business, the bullets would be about $5 each. Obviously they would never sell, so the answer would be to find labor saving steps. The length cutting could be done in one dast step with a shear, but I do not have the resources to buy one, unless I can find something already made for something else, and modify it. That is kinda up my alley, in case ya hadn't figured that out about me yet. The other would be a drill for the hollow point, that has a solid stop built into it. The one I use is one of those doughnut rings you set on it and hold it in place with a set screw. It holds fine and keeps the depth consistent, BUT the cutout areas of the drill bit get clogged up with copper shavings, where they go under the drill stop, forcing me to stop about 4-5 times each hole.



Maybe I can fill this one with something to "make do", hmmmm. Anyway, more to come. I would LOVE to test these things on a deer this fall or a piggie. We will see.




Well, another little setback, sort of. They expanded, but only around 2000fps and up, NOT what I was hoping for. At those speeds, though, they expanded perfectly. I was honestly hoping to get some expansion around 1400-1500. I did get deformation, but not what I was hoping for. I know what I need to fix it, but not sure just yet how to do it so that. I need to score the outside in about 4-5 places, before drilling, to cause easy expansion on impact.

I am thinking that this might be best accomplished during the "solid" stage right after the tip is cut off.

Plus, I figured out an issue my lathe was having and corrected that, so now it works WAY better. Anyway if anyone has ideas on how to score the bullet deep enough to cause it to expand on impact, and score it the sane place, and same depth every time, I am open to them. It seems to me, some sort of die that has "blades" in it that I could press the bullet into, before drilling, that it might work.

Before anyone mentions it, I tried to see if a case trimmer would work, but the angles are wrong, they barely touch the sides, only a few thousandths of the tip. This needs to be scored about 1/4" I am thinking.

[handirifle]

OK maybe not a setback, time will tell. This is an idea I have had rattling around in my head for some time an I finally let it escape. I cut the shank of an allen wrench off, one that ALMOST fits inside the 1/4" hole that I now drill the bullets out to instead of 15/64. I put the allen wrench shank (the shank from now on) into the lathe, and squared off the end, then cut the hex portion of the shank back about 1/16". This section is now rounded and allows it to act as a guide into the opening in the bullet.

I inserted the shank into my drill press, set into one of the aluminum blocks I made early on in this project. These were used as a length guide to cut the bullets, but I used it tonight to hold the bullet square to the drill press. I "pressed" the shank into the bullet opening and it worked very nicely. Here is a pic, sorry, it's a little blurry, but taking pics with my cell phone these days. You can see some of the skiving. Looking a little closer than you might be able to see in the pic, I can see the leading edge of the hollow point and the skiving appears to cut through about 50% of the copper wall.



I have very high hopes for this design. By the way, I have no plans, for the first expansion test, to use the nose forming die. I will test first for expansion, and if iw works like I hope, I will round over the nose and try again.