Winchester 94 difficult to load and extract some brass

[cpy911]

Hi all,
I am reloading for 30-30 and find that some brass (usually Remington, but not always) that is sized properly and loaded will become very difficult to chamber (when moving the lever to its home position). When extracting the brass (opening the lever) it is almost impossible to open the lever without grabbing it with two hands. This is in a '55 Win 94. I take the same brass and load it in a pre WWII Win 94 that I have and notice a little bit more difficult extraction, but nothing that prevents cycling the lever. I have made a Youtube video of my problem and would like your thoughts.

I have sorted the brass that seems to work well in the '55 and ALL brass works fine in the pre-WWII rifle. How come the '55 can not work with ALL brass equally well and smoothly? I am stumped. Perhaps something is wrong with the rifle? I hate to spend $$$ to have a gunsmith work on it, and it works with the brass I have sorted out. It is just a weird thing. Also, the pre-WWII rifle (was my Grandpa's) has an extremely smooth action and a joy to work with, the '55 is not near as smooth and is hard to work when the bad brass is introduced, but maybe will work smooth over time?

94 Experts, What say ye???

Youtube video is here:
http://youtu.be/CpGtNBbnQKQ

[J Miller]

What is your load? What is OK in one gun maybe too hot in another one.

Chamber tolerance differences,
Dirty chamber ( sometimes you need to disassemble the rifle to clean them good)

Joe

[jhrosier]

I would buy a couple hundred rounds of new brass and keep it segregated for use only in that rifle.
Your chamber might be on the small side, and your sizing die on the large side of tolerance. If you know someone else who has a 30-30 sizer, you might try it for size. Also try chambering a resized case before the bullet is seated. It is possible to distort the case when seating or crimping.

Jack

[cpy911]

I would buy a couple hundred rounds of new brass and keep it segregated for use only in that rifle.
Your chamber might be on the small side, and your sizing die on the large side of tolerance. If you know someone else who has a 30-30 sizer, you might try it for size. Also try chambering a resized case before the bullet is seated. It is possible to distort the case when seating or crimping.

Jack

Hmm. You might be on to something. I may take some of the trouble brass and try tweaking the sizer die and see if I can get them to work smoother.
I also have some factory Remington I should try, but probably wait to play with these at the range.

[adirondakjack]

If these cases have previously been run through, and your sizing die have been set up for the other rifle, it MIGHT BE the other rifle has a slight bit of a head space issue allowing cases to lengthen a tad too much for the "tight" rifle to swallow????

With a '94, use of a set of head space gauges is the only answer to that riddle I know of.

[Marvin S]

Brass trimmed to correct length? Lead bullet with fat/long nose engraving the rifling? Over crimping making a buldge in the neck area? Not full length sizing? Need more info.

[Griff]

A chamber cast will tell you many answers to questions you haven't thought to ask yourself.

Even tho' many mdl 94s have very "similar" chambers, there are some manufacturing tolerances at play. Since I never know which exact rifle my .30-30 ammo will be fired in, I use the minimum dimensions to reload to.

As noted in the above posts, you need the answers to the following: What bullet are you using? What length are you trimming your brass to? And, finally, what OAL are your cartridges?

[AJMD429]

Definitely check your case-length if you haven't already - some cases may be longer, and it is conceivable that one brand could be more so than another. The Lee trimmer/guage is inexpensive and perfect for the task.

[Marvin S]

If you ruled out the common things take one of the tight fitting ones and black it up with a magic marker and then try to chamber a few times to transfer the marks to the case.

[cpy911]

Definitely check your case-length if you haven't already - some cases may be longer, and it is conceivable that one brand could be more so than another. The Lee trimmer/guage is inexpensive and perfect for the task.

I am testing only full length sized cases that are all trimmed using a Lee trimmer case length gauge.

The problem occurs either with a loaded case (150 gr LRNFP) crimped at the crimp groove or unloaded and put into the chamber to test the action fit and function. Since the problem occurs both with loaded or unloaded brass I am not so much concerned about the load, but the brass problem.

[adirondakjack]

Full length sized empties fail to chamber? Have you got a way to look in the chamber? Might be something like a ring of brass from failed neck or other obstruction right at the forward bit of the chamber where the case mouth ends up???

[pokey]

watched your video,
it answers a lot of the questions asked.

do you have a good set of calipers? micrometer?
you need to measure the good and bad and find the difference.
there is one, must be.
pay attention to rim thickness.
why the two guns behave differently, because they are two different guns.
it's a head space thing, maybe not a problem, but a thing.

good luck

[cpy911]

watched your video,
it answers a lot of the questions asked.

do you have a good set of calipers? micrometer?
you need to measure the good and bad and find the difference.
there is one, must be.
pay attention to rim thickness.
why the two guns behave differently, because they are two different guns.
it's a head space thing, maybe not a problem, but a thing.

good luck

OK here is a quick sample. Note this is for an EMPTY brass case only. SAAMI says max case should be 2.0395"

The Good: OAL: 2.0315, 2.0325, 2.032, 2.032, 2.030 ===> average is 2.0316
RIM Thickness: .057, .054, .056, .056 .059 ===> average is .0564

The Bad: 2.041, 2.036, 2.038, 2.034, 2.035 ===> average is 2.037"
RIM Thickness: .056, .056, .055, .057 .056 ===> average is .056

This is telling me that the BAD cases are running a bit longer. I am going to try running the BAD through trimming process and see if that makes a different...stay tuned....

Thanks!

[adirondakjack]

2.040 is nominal OAL for .30-30. I still think ya got "cah cah" in the neck end of the chamber or at the shoulder. If I was a smith and had a .30-30 reamer handy, I'd give it a twist BY HAND in the chamber and probably come out with something.

As mentioned above, black up a longISH case real good with marker and see where the ink gets rubbed off when ya cycle it.

[cpy911]

SOLVED!!!!

Well, I was looking at the sizing die again and noticed when I was pushing the case up into the die, I was not taking it ALL the way in. I have it set now that the case goes to the point that it almost kisses the shell carrier. I took several BAD ones and re-sized and re-trimmed. The result...works like a dream in the '55! My guess is that the pre WWII Winchester has had a lot more wear and tear (was my grandpa's and was used for "work" at the sheep camp A LOT!) and was able to accept these over-sized cases that were not properly sized. Which tells me the pre-WWII may need a looksie to ensure the head space and chamber and stuff is OK. But, I don't shoot it hardly at all anyway...

Anyhow, I am good to go. Thanks a lot for your help! You guys are great!!!!

Now, I am looking for a 2-3 MOA load (possible??) that is inexpensive and fun to shoot (less recoil than full house hunting loads) out to 100 yards. The load with 10gr of Trail boss with cast 150 gr. LRNFP just are too rainbow trajectory to be accurate to 100 yards. Seems to be OK at 50 yards though..maybe just plink at this range...

Also, the buckhorn sites don't play well with me, so I am thinking peep sights might help?

Lastly, what is the proper procedure for switching from cast loads to jacket loads? I want to do a plinking load with the cast bullets and switch to jacketed bullets for the full house hunting cartridge. Do I just clean with Hoppes? Can I just shoot interchangeably? What is the verdict on this?

Thanks again!

[adirondakjack]

Yep, I'd give the "looser" rifle a whirl with head space gages just because.

Now that ya figured out the real issue with yer brass, you ought to be good to go

[J Miller]

Now that you know your FL die was not properly adjusted you should use the die makers instructions to properly set it. I've kept my 30-30 dies properly adjusted using the makers instructions, RCBS, for over 35 years. I've never had a problem with cases not chambering in a variety of 30-30s.

A very good and consistent load is 34.5grs of Win 748 behind a Speer 150 soft point sparked with a Win WLR primer.

Joe

[Marvin S]

You can just go ahead and shoot the jacket bullets after the lead assuming your bore is not terribly leaded. Most folks recommend cleaning the copper fouling out before switching back to lead. I don't shoot many jacket bullets anymore unless its something like a 22-250. A good fitted cast gas check bullet will perform up to the potential of the 30-30 and kill what needs killin. There is tons of loading data for the 30-30 out there but a good 150ish gr cast bullet and and the old 10gr of Unique is still a good load.

Don't cut cast bullets out for the lack of proper knowledge and how to fit them to the bore of YOUR gun. There is just to much good info out there to do it the right way. Here is the place to start and it is free. http://www.lasc.us/articlesfryxell.htm

[Griff]

I adjust all my sizing dies (and most others also), so that the bottom of the die just "kisses" the shellholder. I don't want it to apply any pressure on the shellholder, just barely touch it. When first adjusted, if I had to give a measurement... I'd say the die is about one or maybe 2 thousands of an inch off the shellholder. That's with no case in the holder... the additional friction of the case going into the sizer will usually keep it at .001-.002 off contact with the shellholder. That way all my dies are consistent.