Iver Johnson SA

[Old Savage]

Fellows - what do we know about when these were produced? From what I have found so far Iver Johnson imported some between 1973 and 1978 and they were called the Cattleman. I do not know who made them, Italian however.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Joe has one. Maybe he is the one to answer your question.

[jhrosier]

I can't say about the SAs but IJ was also assembling the percussion revolvers for Colt from Italian made parts around the same time.

Jack

[kimwcook]

Joe has one. Maybe he is the one to answer your question.

Yep.

[J Miller]

The Iver Johnson's imported Cattleman and the other verisons as well were made by Uberti. Mine is so marked on the left side of the barrel:
A. UBERTI & C. GARDONE VT. ITALY
On the left side of the cylinder frame, under the cylinder it's marked:
IVER JOHNSON'S
FITCHBURG-MASS-U.S.A.
On the right side of the cylinder frame under the cylinder there is the usual Italian proof marks and the date code. In this case AA in a rectangle indicating 1975.

They are not a true Colt clone, just a good copy. There are dimension variations that can make it a pain in the rear to overhaul them, but it can be done.
They also have the "D" cam hammer that has a tendency to go out of time due to a lack of fitting.

I've had three but only have one now. I wouldn't mine having a couple
more.

Joe

[Old Savage]

This one has AC in the rectangle. Iver Johnson and Fitchburg on the barrel and frame, a number of proof marks and no maker named. It does have the serial # on the frame and on the barrel.

[jhrosier]

This one has AC in the rectangle....

That is the proof code for 1977.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... ad#p563847

Jack

[Old Savage]

Interesting, thanks for that info.

[pwl44m]

OS, is this what You spent Your Christmas money on? If so it looks good. What Cal. ?
Perry

[Old Savage]

45 Cal. - I have only begun to acquire on this single action jihad.

Possibles on the list:

Colt 1851 Navy with silver looking grip frame and CCH.

44 Spl. Stainless Vaquero 4 5/8"

USFA 4 3/4" 45 Colt.

[Buck Elliott]

Many many moons ago, I had an Iver Johnson Cattleman, made by Hämmerli.. It had a very full, rounded out grip profile, and a beefy, angular-profile top strap.. The brass backstrap and trigger guard were very rough castings, where the surfaces didn't show, but were polished up nicely where visible.. The firing pin was bent slightly, to allow it to poke thru the hole in the recoil shield. Fit and finish were abysmal, by colt standards (or modern Uberti).. Chambers were only reamed, not polished, and throats were oversize. Accuracy was "adequate" at gunfight distances..
I got the thing in a trade, and carried it when I went places where it mught get hurt or lost.. It didn't..
After much action work, it wasn't too unpleasant to shoot, and eventually, a friend fell in love with the brass grip fram and blonde, walnut one-piece grip, and offered me much more than I thought it was worth.. I think he still has it..

[Old Savage]

The gun that Paco blew up appears to have the same type angular top strap.

[AJMD429]

The gun that Paco blew up appears to have the same type angular top strap.

What did Paco do to blow one up. . . ?

[J Miller]

The gun that Paco blew up appears to have the same type angular top strap.

What did Paco do to blow one up. . . ?

That's a good question considering what was done to try to destroy mine and it didn't work.

Mine has the angular upper rear on the receiver too.

IJ Brass grip.JPG

The grips were reasonably slim, not overly full like Buck's version.

Joe

[Old Savage]

Paco had some very heavy level 45 Colt loads which he marked with red I believe. He was out shooting with a police friend and while Paco was not looking his friend loaded them into his Colt clone which looked like one of these. The friend was called away suddenly on the radio. Paco picked up the gun and fired it and the top of the cylinder came off and the top strap was blown apart. Some other friends took the remains and actually fixed it by getting a new cylinder and welding a new top strap on it. The story and pictures are in his book.

[Buck Elliott]

The grip configuration on my old Hämmerli was more like the grips on the later Interams Virginian Dragoon. The grips in Joe's photo look like the standard, brass gripped Uberti

[Griff]

The grip configuration on my old Hämmerli was more like the grips on the later Interams Virginian Dragoon. The grips in Joe's photo look like the standard, brass gripped Uberti

Wasn't that also made by Hammerli... or am I thinking of a different Interarms... Nope... for more on the Interarms sixguns: Interarms Virginian Dragoons. I remember a 10-½" barreled version... that I've always wanted to pick up if I found it at a reasonable price.

[adirondakjack]

Hammerli did in fact make the Virginan Dragoon. I had one in .45 Colt. It was a beast of a gun, bigger than a Blackhawk, with buttery smooth lock work. The down side is it had .455 throats and a .451 bore. It would group with 260 grain Speer (old style) JHPs on top of OH MY GOD loads of 2400 that turned the cases blue, but patterned with anything less.

[Buck Elliott]

I have only seen a couple of the Hämmerli-made Cattleman revolvers.. Some were also made by Armi Jaeger, under the same marketing name, but I think that Uberti made most of them, and still does..

I never could get next to the Virginian Dragoon.. Every example I ever saw was a disappointment, considering the reputation of the maker, pretty much like my Cattleman... The Virginian Dragoons always looked as if the various parts had been designed by different people, who never talked to each other.. Granted, they were Stout revolvers, but visually unappealing...

[Griff]

I know that Jager made the "Dakota" for EMF. The Interarms Virginian "Dragoon" was a US made revolver...

MIDLAND, VIRGINIA & THE DRAGOON
In 1976, production was assumed by Interarms Industries of Midland, VA. The decision to break ties with Hammerli was largely based on
dollar depreciation as experienced in the mid-1970s. In other words, as U.S. currency was devalued, it became unprofitable to import the Virginian. Sam Cumming’s solution involved a 25,000 square foot plant that was built on the edge of a 350 acre farm. Ten of the 350 acres was for the production site, while the remaining 340 was farmed. At its peak, the staff totaled around 70, with most of the workers being long-time residents of Fauquier County...
At this time, the adjustable sight “Virginian Dragoon” was introduced in .44 Magnum, with the only finish being blued & color-case. While.357 Mags and .45 Colts were catalogued, they weren’t actually made until the late 70s or early 80s. It’s also rumored that the Midland plant produced a few fixed-sight Dragoons from 1976 to late 1977. Though they were listed on the Interarms price sheet, I’ve never actually seen the fixed sight variation.
Unlike the old Hammerli guns, Interarms had the Hitchner Corporation cast a heavier frame to accommodate the .44 Magnum round. Once
poured using either 4140 steel or 416 stainless, they were then shipped to Midland for final spec machining. In terms of strength and overall dimensions, these were very close to that of a Blackhawk, except the top-strap was more curved. A second noticeable difference was a slot that was cast about a quarter of an inch below the top of the frame. This characteristic became a trademark of sorts for the Interarms Dragoon and it does make the gun easily identifiable.

[adirondakjack]

Griff, That is somewhat true. When I went searching for a spring for the one I had, the fellow at Interarms told me that in the mid 70s they started doing some work and ASSEMBLING them here, but he claimed the bits were mostly shipped as leftover stock from Hamerli when they were forced to quit for the reasons stated.

So, like the Hyundai Elantra "built" In Alabama, using entire sub-assemblies from Korea and welded up into a car here, I really can't make myself call the Dragoon "American" made.

[Old Savage]

Little more information here. Iver Johnson apparently brought some guns over from Italy and they are marked Italy. Others were made in Middlesex, NJ by IJ from parts brought over from Italy made by Uberti and finished and assembled in the Middlesex facility.

[J Miller]

From what I have read; The Italian law requires all completed guns made for export to have Italian proof marks on them. Unfinished guns sold as parts or kits or to final assemblers do not have proof marks.
So check your gun and see if it has the Italian proofs on it.

Joe

[Old Savage]

Mine has the Italian proofs but does not say Italy.

[Hagler]

Gentlemen,

Since Hammerli came up, I checked GunBroker for them. I found this one, with a "missing" firing pin. Can anyone tell me why this gun is modified this way?:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =269444386











Shawn

[J Miller]

Shawn,

That little half round roller on the hammer top is a safety. Roll it one way and it prevents the firing pin from reaching the primer. Roll it the the other way and the hammer can fall all the way down.
It's another way to get past the GCA 68 and other idiotic BATFE rulings.

The one in the pic has not been modified, it's just missing the firing pin and related attaching parts.

Joe

[J Miller]

Mine has the Italian proofs but does not say Italy.

Mine is marked ITALY on the left side of the barrel along with the Uberti name.
It has Italian proof marks on the right side of the frame, barrel and the cylinder.

Joe

[Hagler]

Thanks, Joe.

Shawn

[Old Savage]

Joe - this one has the proof marks but not Italy.

[Old Savage]

On the strength issue, the cylinder of the IJ is slightly larger than that of my .45 Colt Pietta clone by approx. .015" and my Colt 44 Spl by approx. .020".

By comparison the Ruger is .078" larger. Freedom Arms 454 is approx. .010" over and of course a 5 shot.

An N frame 44 Spl is .055" larger than the Colt 44 Spl.