Pistol Caliber Lever Action Carbine?

PMWIZARD · Post by **PMWIZARD** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:15 am

Does anyone know if a manufacturer makes a lever action carbine in a pistol caliber(9 mm, 40 S&W, 45 acp). I know they make them in revolver calibers(357/38 spl, 44 mag).

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:56 am

None that I am aware of.. The straight, rimless cartridges would compound feedig, firing and extraction difficulties in almost any lever-action rofle known to mankind....the tubular magazine would almost certainly have to be done away with, susbstituting some other method of magazine carry....
Picture a cross between a '94 Marlin, and that maker's camp carbine..

PMWIZARD · Post by **PMWIZARD** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:15 am

That's what I thought, but in searching online I didn't find any either. Oh well, thanks for the reply.

gak · Post by **gak** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:20 am

Some older (early-mid 20th Century) South American or Spanish Win 92 clones (El Tigres or their ilk) were chambered to .45 ACP or converted way back when, presumably for their home markets/LEOs. Don't know how successfully.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:37 am

'92s in mexican version converted to use up FREE military spec .45 ACP ammo we gave them sucked.

However, I know a Marlin or '73 type action CAN be conveted to run short rounds (I have em here, for Cowboy .45 Special, which is an ACP with a colt rim), and all that would remain is to recut the chamber to ACP, re-thread the barrel, and rework the extractor and bolt face cartridge guide "ears" for the rimless design. it is perfectly feasible and has been done. For the '66/73 action key is use of My own cowboy carrier designed to handle the short rounds.

The reason it is NOT done is unlike the longer revolver rounds that are very inefficient when shot through a short barrel, and gain a significant amount through a rifle, a short pistol case is already very efficient in pistol use, and gains almost nothing in the longer pipe. Folks expecting to turn their ACP into a Long Colt +P by using a longer rifle barrel end up sadly disappointed. Hence the lackluster sales of the camp Carbine, etc.

My HOTTEST "ruger only level" short case loads are a 230 XTP ACP bullet in Cowboy .45 Special brass at 1400 fps using Power Pistol at about 28K estimated pressures. In "long colt" that's easily exceeded. BUT, I can run 17+1 of em out of the 24" marlin, and 11+1 in the 16" rifle.

PMWIZARD · Post by **PMWIZARD** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:11 am

How is the accuracy of the rifle compared to other rifles that you own?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:55 am

PMWIZARD wrote:How is the accuracy of the rifle compared to other rifles that you own?

I think it varies quite a bit. Some leverguns were made as if the broad side of the barn was the goal, but others are fitted better and shoot 1 MOA without a problem. Few of my 'stock' bolt-actions would shoot that well.

You CAN take most leverguns and 'accurize' them (search this website for articles on that), or just buy several, shoot them, and keep the accurate one, or at least scope that one, and use the rest for less accuracy-demanding tasks.

Most guns can outshoot their owners, except when the owner 'cheats' with a bench and rest...

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:30 pm

Lack of a rim causes issues in most actions more than length. In a Marlin pistol caliber the dia difference between the rim & case body is what keeps it from double feeding, in any properly functioning Marlin empty cases should feed onto the carrier fine, its tricky getting empty straight walled cases into the chamber but once theres a bullet there length just should not matter. Not sure about the Win designs but figure its similar.
That aside I dont know why Ruger never did it with their lever action box mag gun. Also headspacing on the case mouth might cause more problems if chambers arent perfect or cases arent just the right length.
I think theres a reason God put rims on revolver & lever action cartridges.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:44 pm

Why does it not have a problem with the 35 Rem.?

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:55 pm

Leverdude wrote:I think theres a reason God put rims on revolver & lever action cartridges.

As us 35 Remington fans know, there's no God-mandated requirement for a rim on a lever cartridge. And the rim on the straight-walled cartridges is more for the nice headspacing than for a feeding requirement.

Now the two model 94's I own look like they need a rim to keep from double-feeding a cartridge, but with the tighter fit that would be enabled by doing away with the rim my '92's would be able to handle a rimless cartridge. In fact, the only reason this kid hasn't already converted my Rossi in 454 Casull to 6mm Remington Bench-Rest is that there just isn't enough room to seat the bullet out enough to be practical. The action feeds it just fine.

So I'm thinking the lack of levers shooting 45 ACP is more a headspace thing than a prevent the double-feeding thing. Soon as you make loads stout enough to take advantage of the lever rifle's abilities you begin needing a good crimp to keep the bullet in place. Which would mess up the headspace-on-casemouth deal with the pistol cartridges...

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:27 pm

As I was starting work on my Marlin 1894 project, a good friend was just finishing up work on the same model to shoot 45ACP. He sez it runs like a champ! The key is timing. I haven't gotten yogether with 'im to see for myownself... but he's not known to exaggerate any more than anyone on this forum!

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:51 pm

The .35 Rem headspaces on the shoulder, and is long enough to feed reliably..

I do remember the .45 ACP El Tigre carbines that were in circulation, decades ago.. Functioning ranged from mediocre to abysmal, for the most part, and power and accuracy left much to be desired..

Since most pistol cartridges have limited powder capacity, they are loaded with fast-burning powders, which works fine in the normal pistol platform, but the pressure curve is so steep and short, that gas pressure has been pretty much used up in the first 6 to 8 inches of the barrel, and bullets have to depend on momentum, almost, just to get to the end of the tube...

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:04 pm

Well, before we get toooo out on a limb of how a pistol bullet needs momentum to get to the end of the barrle, some facts might be in order.

I own a Kel-Tec carbine, 16 inch barrel in 9mm. Here's some actual data:

Win 127 gr +p+, Glock 19 does 1280 fps. KT, 1420. Not really much difference. But the powder does make a difference.

PowerMax 115 gr +P+ Glock does 1340 fps. KT, 1760. Over 400 feet is quite a bit. If the round is loaded for a pistol barrel with fast burning pistol powder the longer tube helps, but not alot. Load it with a much slower powder and you get a different result. Look at what adirondakjack has posted. 45 ACP, 230 gr at 1400? I think that's moving for such a short little piece o' brass.

Your opinion may vary.

Cat

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:32 pm

Old Savage wrote:Why does it not have a problem with the 35 Rem.?

Because its bottlenecked & tapered. The lifter needs to be able to come up enough to block the next round in the tube while letting the body of the current one slip in. Rifle calibers have more of a fudge factor, thats why we usually hear about the "Marlin jam" in regards to the 1894 in 357 or 44. Almost never happens with the older bottleneck shorties like the 44/40, it can be done but OAL will be critcal, like Griff said, the key is timing. You'll need to get the lifter to come up just as the bullet is coming out of the tube to stop the next one, whereas in a normal situation the lifter is up well before the bullet clears the tube.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:43 pm

earlmck wrote:
Leverdude wrote:I think theres a reason God put rims on revolver & lever action cartridges.
As us 35 Remington fans know, there's no God-mandated requirement for a rim on a lever cartridge. And the rim on the straight-walled cartridges is more for the nice headspacing than for a feeding requirement.

Now the two model 94's I own look like they need a rim to keep from double-feeding a cartridge, but with the tighter fit that would be enabled by doing away with the rim my '92's would be able to handle a rimless cartridge. In fact, the only reason this kid hasn't already converted my Rossi in 454 Casull to 6mm Remington Bench-Rest is that there just isn't enough room to seat the bullet out enough to be practical. The action feeds it just fine.

So I'm thinking the lack of levers shooting 45 ACP is more a headspace thing than a prevent the double-feeding thing. Soon as you make loads stout enough to take advantage of the lever rifle's abilities you begin needing a good crimp to keep the bullet in place. Which would mess up the headspace-on-casemouth deal with the pistol cartridges...

I have 3 35 Remington Marlin lever actions & like the caliber. But its NOT a levergun cartridge. Every single cartridge ever designed for a tube fed lever action has a rim, just like every cartridge designed for a revolver has a rim. In both cases you can fiddle with things & use a rimless case, but that dont make them lever action or revolver cartridges, No biggie, just the way it is.

765x53 · Post by **765x53** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:27 pm

This sounds like another area where Ruger missed the boat with the "96".

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:37 pm

765x53 wrote:This sounds like another area where Ruger missed the boat with the "96".

I'd like to have seen them make the 96 in .45 Colt (easy since they make a .44 Mag), and if possible, .480 Ruger (would have made a nice pair with a .480 Ruger Pistol), and of course all the other cool 'pistol' cartridges - .357 Mag, .32-20, etc.

Probably they could have tweaked it and done rimless ones as well.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:48 pm

For several years, ruger is death on holding inventory, holding parts for oddballs, (inventory costs em in taxes), and death on resetting machines for short runs of anything unless paid for up front by a distributor wanting a special run. They are after all a PUBLIC company, and as such, are ONLY in the business of making MONEY! The guns, golf club heads, whatever it takes, exist only to make the dough re mi needed to satisfy wall street.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:13 am

Leverdude wrote:I have 3 35 Remington Marlin lever actions & like the caliber. But its NOT a levergun cartridge. Every single cartridge ever designed for a tube fed lever action has a rim, just like every cartridge designed for a revolver has a rim. In both cases you can fiddle with things & use a rimless case, but that dont make them lever action or revolver cartridges, No biggie, just the way it is.

Ya' got me there, Leverdude. We're both writing in the same language but I think we're operating with different dictionaries.

So now you know, PMWIZARD. Even if you can find a rifle that shoots 'em just fine, those little pistol cartridges aren't levergun cartridges. Of course, maybe you don't really care what we call your cartridge as long as we don't call you late for dinner.

PMWIZARD · Post by **PMWIZARD** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:27 am

Being a person not into tinkering with my weapons, it was a question I had to ask. I know you can buy AR uppers in pistol calibers, so it just peaked my interest if it was possible. Considering I enjoy shooting leverguns more than the black rifles.

Thanks for all the input from everyone, I have definitely learned some great information. And yes by the way, I WON'T BE LATE FOR DINNER.

Remington40x · Post by **Remington40x** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:35 pm

Marlin made its Model 62 in .30 Carbine. You could buy a Ruger Blackhawk and have a rifle/pistol combo.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:08 pm

As far as a Marlin FEEDING them out of the mag tube, if properly timed, it'd feed chunks of dowel cut to length. Neither the bullet or the rim is of much consequence IF PROPERLY TIMED. Feeding into the chamber is again a matter of timing of the carrier relative to the bore, but yes, they'd feed chunks of dowel if timed right. If a little 'off" which most are, a rnfp or tc bullet profile helps add fudge factor.

I have two Marlins set up to run Cowboy ,45 Special (acp with a colt rim) and HAVE cycled acp rounds as a test. The cartridge guides on the bolt face are an issue, as is the extractor, but they will feed from the mag to the chamber fine. They just don't extract or eject properly.

So here's everything ya need to do to a Marlin.

You need a carrier timed to cycle short rounds, which for the home gunsmith would be best achieved following the "Widdermatic" mods found on Marauder's pages.
This mod is mostly carrier work, but also a lesson in refining timing.

Then ya need to close up the cartridge guides on the bolt face (TIG weld and cut) to accept the smaller case head.

The barrel needs to be cut, re-chambered in ACP, and re-threaded, along with the adjustments to the mag tube to match.
Next a modified extractor needs to be made up, and the relief cut in the chamber cut to match it's engagement.

These last three steps can be skipped if you simply use Cowboy .45 Special cases in lieu of ACP.

But when you get all done and find out that your acp loads you run out of your Ruger Blackhawk convertible achieve about the same velocity out of the rifle barrel, maybe the rifle gives a little more but not a lot, you might be disappointed.

I've got several years doing this stuff. I'm not guessing.

IF I was gonna make up a .45 ACP rifle, I'd re-chamber a '73, cut the brrel to a minimum legal "brush popper", adjust the bolt face accordingly, and install a "Cowboy Carrier"
http://www.cowboy45special.com/Cowboy_t ... riers.html

It's be much easier and feeding woes would be a whole lot easier to tame.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:32 am

been thinking about this since this post first appeared--I would like to see a levergun in 10mm (.40 S&W)... :)

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:50 am

I have 3 35 Remington Marlin lever actions & like the caliber. But its NOT a levergun cartridge. Every single cartridge ever designed for a tube fed lever action has a rim, just like every cartridge designed for a revolver has a rim. In both cases you can fiddle

I read somewhere that 35 Rem and 30 Rem were developed for a specific Remington autoloader, and the use in a levergun came later.

Palmtreee · Post by **Palmtreee** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:27 am

David Clay of DRC can make you a 45 ACP lever, mine loves 200 grain SWC just like my 1911's.

PMWIZARD · Post by **PMWIZARD** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:22 am

My original idea was a modern pistol cartridge in a lever action carbine, much like the 357/38 spcl or 45 long colt. I understand now that what sounds good on paper, is a lot more difficult in real life to make.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:39 am

My pick/wish is for a 10mm lever gun. M94 Marlin or 92Win clone. The perfect companion for my Glock 20.

The 10mm in a levergun would launch a 180 grain bullet at about 1560 fps and give 970 ft.lb.s of kinetic energy. A 200 grain bullet would fly at 1440 fps.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:10 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:My pick/wish is for a 10mm lever gun. M94 Marlin or 92Win clone. The perfect companion for my Glock 20.

The 10mm in a levergun would launch a 180 grain bullet at about 1560 fps and give 970 ft.lb.s of kinetic energy. A 200 grain bullet would fly at 1440 fps.

Checking Ballistics By The Inch for the 10mm, your velocity calculations for the 10mm are a bit optimistic. I own a custom G20L I developed in 2004 and while I can push 165grn bullets up to 1,587fps (923ft/lbs ME) and 180grn bullets up to 1,479fps (874ft/lbs ME) out of a 6" barrel, the 10mm isn't your best choice for a longer barrel because the case just doesn't have the capacity to hold enough slow burning powder to go much faster. For instance, Hodgdon's H110 is considered the 'go to' hot 357 Mag powder and the one I use in my loads but it produces mediocre velocities in the 10mm because the case can't hold enough of it (I've tried). Power Pistol and 800X produce much better performance in the 10mm because they are faster burning powders.

Consider BBTI's testing of Buffalo Bore's 180grn 10mm. In a 6" barrel it shows 1,428fps and in an 18" barrel it only increases to 1,573fps, a 10% increase. Now consider the 357 mag; BBTI's testing of Federal Hydra-Shok's 158grn; in a 6" barrel shows 1,485fps and in an 18" barrel it increases to 1,721fps, a 16% increase. My own 357 Mag loads in my 7.5" Uberti produce 1,421fps, out of my 20" Rossi they produce 1,789fps, and out of my 24" Rossi they produce 1,822fps. That's a 26% and 28% increase respectively and my pistol barrel is 7.5" long vs 6" long baseline above. Further, consider Buffalo Bore's Heavy 357 Mag 158grn loads that produce a whopping 2,153fps in an 18" Marlin barrel! That's touching low end 30-30 performance.

The facts are that 357 Mag's case is much larger than the 10mm's so it can hold much more slower burning powder. So, as much as I love the 10mm (and I developed a custom 6" Glock G20/21L to shoot it) I have to acknowledge that the 357 Mag simply out performs the 10mm in barrels longer than 6", i.e., a levergun. Now, if you're talking 6" barrels, my hot 165grn 10mm loads in my G20L slightly out perform the smaller, lighter Buffalo Bore's hot 357 Mag 158grn ammo in a S&W 686 and my Glock holds 3 times the on-board ammo (17+1 vs 6 rds).

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:20 pm

To make up a .40-cal levergun, you would start with a .38-40, and set the barrel back to allow for creation of a proper chamber. The magazine tube could be lined with an aluminum or carbon fiber tube, to promote proper feeding. You would also need a smaller diameter follower and spring.. Pretty labor intensive, for whatever advantage it might give you...

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:29 pm

Palmtreee wrote:David Clay of DRC can make you a 45 ACP lever, mine loves 200 grain SWC just like my 1911's.

Wow Palmtree! That is one cute little devil you have there. Some of the fellows chiming in on this thread might want to give David Clay some business! He could maybe do them a 40 cal. or whatever...

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:20 pm

Palmtreee wrote:David Clay of DRC can make you a 45 ACP lever, mine loves 200 grain SWC just like my 1911's.

Very cool...how long ago did he make that for you?

Also, the butt cuff...what is in the pocket?

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:52 pm

El Mac wrote:
Palmtreee wrote:David Clay of DRC can make you a 45 ACP lever, mine loves 200 grain SWC just like my 1911's.

Very cool...how long ago did he make that for you?

Also, the butt cuff...what is in the pocket?

Guessing, a 1911 magazine to use as a speed loader?

Palmtreee · Post by **Palmtreee** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:40 am

Dave made the conversion about 2 years ago. I leather work as a hobby so I wanted a butt cuff that carries a 1911 mag for my 1911 or ammo for the 1894.

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:25 am

Palmtreee wrote:Dave made the conversion about 2 years ago. I leather work as a hobby so I wanted a butt cuff that carries a 1911 mag for my 1911 or ammo for the 1894.

Very well done!

What was the cost of the conversion itself?

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:14 am

COSteve wrote:
O.S.O.K. wrote:My pick/wish is for a 10mm lever gun. M94 Marlin or 92Win clone. The perfect companion for my Glock 20.

The 10mm in a levergun would launch a 180 grain bullet at about 1560 fps and give 970 ft.lb.s of kinetic energy. A 200 grain bullet would fly at 1440 fps.
Checking Ballistics By The Inch for the 10mm, your velocity calculations for the 10mm are a bit optimistic. I own a custom G20L I developed in 2004 and while I can push 165grn bullets up to 1,587fps (923ft/lbs ME) and 180grn bullets up to 1,479fps (874ft/lbs ME) out of a 6" barrel, the 10mm isn't your best choice for a longer barrel because the case just doesn't have the capacity to hold enough slow burning powder to go much faster. For instance, Hodgdon's H110 is considered the 'go to' hot 357 Mag powder and the one I use in my loads but it produces mediocre velocities in the 10mm because the case can't hold enough of it (I've tried). Power Pistol and 800X produce much better performance in the 10mm because they are faster burning powders.

Consider BBTI's testing of Buffalo Bore's 180grn 10mm. In a 6" barrel it shows 1,428fps and in an 18" barrel it only increases to 1,573fps, a 10% increase. Now consider the 357 mag; BBTI's testing of Federal Hydra-Shok's 158grn; in a 6" barrel shows 1,485fps and in an 18" barrel it increases to 1,721fps, a 16% increase. My own 357 Mag loads in my 7.5" Uberti produce 1,421fps, out of my 20" Rossi they produce 1,789fps, and out of my 24" Rossi they produce 1,822fps. That's a 26% and 28% increase respectively and my pistol barrel is 7.5" long vs 6" long baseline above. Further, consider Buffalo Bore's Heavy 357 Mag 158grn loads that produce a whopping 2,153fps in an 18" Marlin barrel! That's touching low end 30-30 performance.

The facts are that 357 Mag's case is much larger than the 10mm's so it can hold much more slower burning powder. So, as much as I love the 10mm (and I developed a custom 6" Glock G20/21L to shoot it) I have to acknowledge that the 357 Mag simply out performs the 10mm in barrels longer than 6", i.e., a levergun. Now, if you're talking 6" barrels, my hot 165grn 10mm loads in my G20L slightly out perform the smaller, lighter Buffalo Bore's hot 357 Mag 158grn ammo in a S&W 686 and my Glock holds 3 times the on-board ammo (17+1 vs 6 rds).

Steve! You call my figure optomistic and then go on to state that testing proved it out!

The testing was actually faster than my figure.

I never said or implied that the 10mm would be an optimum chambering - just that I'd like it

I don't care if it's optimum - 1570 fps with 180 grain, 40 cal bullet is plenty fast enough for government work. Ditto for 200 grainer at 1400.

Nobody seems concerned that the 45ACP takedown shown is chambered for a sub-optimum round

I think it's cool and would be very handy for home defense or woods bumbing and certainly adequate for taking whitetail at around 50 yards.

And it sounds like the best way to get a 10mm would be for a manufacture to design and make one inteneded for that chambering - Buck's description of a conversion involves too much "if" IMHO, so I wouldn't go that route.

As to the .357 Mag making a great and useful levergun chambering - I totally agree - I own a nice little Marlin 94cs.

PMWIZARD · Post by **PMWIZARD** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:09 pm

What is the opnion of everyone on the Henry Big Boy in 357 mag?

Palmtreee · Post by **Palmtreee** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:15 pm

El Mac wrote:
Palmtreee wrote:Dave made the conversion about 2 years ago. I leather work as a hobby so I wanted a butt cuff that carries a 1911 mag for my 1911 or ammo for the 1894.
Very well done!

What was the cost of the conversion itself?

I am not sure what he charges anymore, Dave has started his new company here in North Texas. He builds some very nice stuff. You can find them on the net.

http://drcfirearmsoutdoors.businesscata ... m/drc-team

Most people think a 45 ACP levergun is a waste of time, but for me it is my two favorite things in one. Shooting a 1911 and a Levergun with a 200 gr H&G #68!

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:53 pm

Our favorite, tradtional leverguns were designed around rimmed cartridges, and still work best that way.. Lots of non-traditional alterations can be made to them, to allow them to accept rimless rounds, for example, but there isn't enough interest in the process to make it commercially viable..

Traditionally again, short-action leverguns have been paired with revolvers of the same chambering.. Both types of firearms seem to work best with the rimmed ammo.. Semi-auto pistols chambered for rimless rounds have a number of semi-auto carbines to pair up with as compaions..

I know that tradition means little or nothing to a lot of shooters, who have their own little niche in this world.. Just my 2¢...

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:29 pm

Palmtreee wrote:Most people think a 45 ACP levergun is a waste of time, but for me it is my two favorite things in one. Shooting a 1911 and a Levergun with a 200 gr H&G #68!

I think there is already a hell of a market for a factory made .45 acp levergun...and it would grow once folks saw it out there - the light bulb would go on for a lot of 1911 shooters. As it is, there are very few carbine choices in .45 acp. And that is a tragedy.

Seagoing · Post by **Seagoing** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:44 pm

I think El Mac is right on the money there.
I would certainly want to at least try one out.

As much as I like the traditional levergun style,
I wouldn't even mind a levergun that used a 1911 magazine, if that ensured reliable feeding.
It would look kinda funny, but if it made for a good, reliable, hard-hitting companion to a 1911,
I'd have one in a minute.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:03 am

Compared to a relatively simple semi auto, a levergun is expensive to make. Much as I like em, I realize the limits of the market for a well made lever.

The problem with ACP is folks have been schooled by long cartridge rifles in .44 and .357, and expect the kinds of velocity increases compared to a handgun you will not get with ACP. That is a marketing issue. That said, a 16" carbine with good ergos in .45 would be a GREAT HD gun for those who cannot hit reliably with a 1911.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:23 am

Buck Elliott wrote:Traditionally again, short-action leverguns have been paired with revolvers of the same chambering.. Both types of firearms seem to work best with the rimmed ammo.. Semi-auto pistols chambered for rimless rounds have a number of semi-auto carbines to pair up with as compaions.

It does seem more 'natural' for a Marlin 1894 and a Colt Single Action Revolver to pair up, and a Marlin Camp Rifle and Colt 1911 to pair up, vs. some 'intermarriage' between them.

Of course pretty much any gun-toy will have someone who takes a liking to it...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:54 am

Seagoing wrote:I think El Mac is right on the money there.
I would certainly want to at least try one out.

As much as I like the traditional levergun style,
I wouldn't even mind a levergun that used a 1911 magazine, if that ensured reliable feeding.
It would look kinda funny, but if it made for a good, reliable, hard-hitting companion to a 1911,
I'd have one in a minute.

Such a levergun could be built, somewhat along the lines of the old Winchester Mod. 88, where the mechanism would have to straddle the magazine.. It could be made for the short auto pistol rounds, with or without a hammer, and would be an uncomfortable and odd-looking duck, for sure.. But is is possible. i think the combined aesthetics (or lack thereof) would kill it in the marketplace..

For anyone who wishes to design such a contraption, and see it to market, you have my admiration and condolences. Just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean it should be... i can think of no easier ways to blow through a fortune... I doubt you could sell enough of them to pay for the tooling. There are some traditions you just can't mess with, successfully.. Marketing it would be akin to adverizing the Chevy Volt as the new Wyoming Ranch Truck...

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:24 am

I agree with you there Buck.

But I think a traditional tubular magazine fed levergun in .45 acp is still a winner. I've seen C.E. Harris' charts for loads and there are some good loads to be had in a longer barrel (other than a 5" 1911). True, they may not be 'magnum' in nature, but a 255 gr. .45 moving at 1100 -1200 fps is plenty good.

As for the 1911 and levergun not being 'compatible' aesthetically - thats an opinion that I don't share. Its also denying that the 1911 was availabe in the early part of the last century when there was a levergun on every gun rack around. Now, a Glock and a levergun - yeah, I would agree. But even still, who cares? As it is, there are pleny of 1911 afficianados as well as other pistols in .45 cal that don't have a 'walking around pardner' in a handy carbine. And thats a ridiculous state of affairs.

If I can work out the details with a good 'smith, I'm going to build one. Just because.

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:26 am

Palmtreee wrote:David Clay of DRC can make you a 45 ACP lever, mine loves 200 grain SWC just like my 1911's.

Hey, Palmtree, very cool looking rifle there!

Is the steel really green like it looks in the picture?

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:54 am

I can easily push 250 grain hard-cast .45 Colt bullets out of my 7 1/2" Beretta Stampede (or a Colt SAA) at 1200 fps.. All it takes is a load of H-4198 powder.. The same load gives me just over 1500 fps in a Uberti '73 rifle, so I guess you could say I just ain't too impressed..

In my old .45 Colt Ruger Vaquero, 1450 fps was easy , using a 300, 315, or 325 grain cast bullet, and a stiff charge of H-110. Those loads run about 1750 - 1800 fps in a '92 Winchester, Browning or Rossi...

A .454 Casull will give 1700 fps with those heavier bullets, from a 7 1/2" Freedom Arms revolver, and 2100 fps from a 24" rifle barrel..

You just don't have enough cubic inches in the .45 ACP case to allow you to do anywhere near what even the .45 Colt will do, without blowing something up, or bending it pretty bad...

I wish you luck in finding someone to build your new, stick-mag levergun.. Be prepared to spend upwards of $200,000 for the finished product...

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:11 am

A stick mag levergun? I can't imagine.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:17 am

Psst, want an EASY way to build a stick mag levergun? Start with a '73. That's right, a '73. You could delete the mag tube, carrier and carrier lifter arm, build an adapter to fit in the carrier mortise, and there ya go. Snap yer mag in the "well" where the carrier once was and crank away. Might need to rework the bolt to a 1911 style, but that's easier than building a whole gun from the ground up. Of course ya'd still have to cut, re-chamber and re-thread the barrel, but that's easy.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:24 am

kimwcook wrote:A stick mag levergun? I can't imagine.
adirondakjack wrote:Psst, want an EASY way to build a stick mag levergun? Start with a '73. That's right, a '73. You could delete the mag tube, carrier and carrier lifter arm, build an adapter to fit in the carrier mortise, and there ya go. Snap yer mag in the "well" where the carrier once was and crank away. Might need to rework the bolt to a 1911 style, but that's easier than building a whole gun from the ground up. Of course ya'd still have to cut, re-chamber and re-thread the barrel, but that's easy.

I'd sorta imagined the mag growing out the side! But Jack, actually your idea has merit... if you think that sorta thing makes sense...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:29 am

I have had thoughts and discussions about starting with a '73, in days gone by.. Believe me, this is Not the first time the subject has come up..! It just never seemed worth pursuing, but I won't be too surprised if someone tackles the idea for real...

Hey... Browning's first machine gun was built up from a '73 Winchester...