Anyone here shoot paper patched bullets?

[shooter]

I'm real interested in this topic, and want to get a couple of paper patch bullet molds. I already cast for everything I shoot, so I'm familiar with that aspect. What I have questions about are:

1. How do you figure the size of the patch needed for a certain bullet?
2. What do you use for patch lube?
3. How fast can you push a paper patched projectile? I've heard you can push them as fast as a jacketed bullet, but I don't know if that's correct or not.

I have found several videos showing how to roll the patch, and how to cut the patch, but none on how to size the patch to a particular bullet. I know Montana Bullet Works sells lube for paper patching, but I like to make as much as I can on my own. What is generally used for this purpose?

Thanks in advance.

[Griff]

I believe that "getitdone" has done some shooting with PP bullets!

[perry owens]

I'm no expert on the subject but I used to paper patch bullets for my Martini Henry and Werndl. I slugged the bore and figured what size bullet I needed, usually 0.002in over bore size. I then measured the diameter of available bullets and found a patching paper that would bring the bullet diameter up to spec with one wrap. For example. my MK IV Martini needs a 0.468 bullet. With a 0.462 diameter swaged bullet one wrap of 0.003 paper brings it up to 0.468. The paper manufacturer measures its thickness under a pressure of 50 psi so it will probably seem thicker than specification when you measure it with calipers.
Pure cotton paper works best as it is very tough. Buffalo Arms used to sell it. Copier and computer printout paper is not a good idea as it is loaded with clay and is quite abrasive. It's hard to get paper of the right thickness so sometimes you have to use multiple wraps. I was lucky in having a papermaking research lab at my disposal so I used to make my own papers to a specific thickness.
I rolled the patches on wet and let them dry - no lube at all. I have seen other shooters use silicone spray lube, shoe polish and Alox but I don't know if they improve things.
I only ever shot PP bullets with black powder so can't help you with the velocity question.
Perry Owens

[Don McDowell]

It helps to know what you're paper patching for. Generally with blackpowder you want the finished diameter of the patched bullet to be at or just under bore diameter. Some folks do patch to groove with fair success.
Usually you want 2 wraps of the paper. as to the width of the paper it's generally best for accuracy if the edge of the patch stays close to but not over the ogive of the bullet nose.
9# onion skin is a good choice, some folks have been using 8# from Seth Cole with some bullets.
Lube on the paper is a hot topic, it can be done, and sometimes it helps, but usually a grease cookie is a better deal. I like jojoba oil for wiping the patch after the round is loaded.

[Ray Newman]

I have been shooting pare Patch (PP) in my single shot rifles for slightly over 2 years.

If you are loading with Black Powder, probably the best investment you can make is “Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets” from Buffalo Arms:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx? ... 0&CAT=4148

From Buffalo Arms web page:

“Shoot 'em the way they were originally designed to be shot, with black powder and paper patch bullets! That's the subject of "Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets" - A Beginners Guide by Randolph S. Wright. De-mystify the paper patch enigma with a simple step-by-step approach to re-loading using off the shelf components.

“The book is thoroughly illustrated and covers each step, from selecting the proper bullet diameter, through techniques on rolling patches, to range testing.”
8.5" X 5.5", 102 pages. Spiral bound to lay flat. US $25.00

It really shortened my learning curve. It will describe and with the illustrations, show you how to determine patch length and width, how to apply the patch, determine powder height, bullet alloys, etc.

CAVEAT: PP does not work well with lever guns --more often than not, the paper will tear as a result of the feeding action.

As for PP lube: some use it; some don't. Myself, I do not think it is necessary. A grease cookie between two wads works better and keeps the Black Powder fouling softer.

I have “heard” that you can load smokeless powder and PP, but I do not know of anyone who has tried it in recent years.

If you are interested in how the Sharps Rifle Company advised shooters how to reload ammunition, including PP, see: “Sharps Rifle the Gun that Shaped American Destiny”.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx? ... 1&CAT=4150

From Buffalo Arms web page:

“The story of Sharps firearms from the beginning. Not only are the priceless old illustrated Sharps catalogs reproduced but also a wealth of reliable material about Sharps cartridges and Sharps patents“ US $8.50

[shooter]

I'll be shooting smokeless powder. I'm interested in it mainly for my 8mm Mauser, but wanted to give it a go with my 30-30 and 45-70 also. If they don't work well in leverguns I will just stick to the bolt guns. Just want to see what kind of performance I get out of them. i may just order some from Montana Bullet works or someone reputable before I go out and buy the stuff.

[Don McDowell]

My opinion, but that's just a flat waste of time. They never loaded paper patched bullets in those bottlenecked smokeless cartridges for a reason.

[PaperPatch]

Perhaps I can help....

You will want the book linked below by E.H. Harrison of the NRA Technical Staff. He researched and wrote the defining work on cast, .30 caliber paper patched bullets using smokeless powders. For cartridges, Harrison utilized the 308, 30-06 and 300 Win Mag in his research.

http://www.amazon.com/Cast-Bullets-H-Ha ... 380&sr=8-5

To answer one of your questions...Harrison propelled them accurately at velocities of 3000fps.

Following Harrison's examples...I crafted mine for use in a 30-06 Model 1895 Winchester, using a 200 grain paper patched bullet at 2200fps. Accuracy was astonishing...and I am a mediocre shooter!!!

The book linked above, will tell you everything you need to know about the details of patch placement/configuration and a whole lot more.


Good luck and enjoy....

[Ray Newman]

Shooter: since you want to load paper patch (PP) and smokeless, ‘ya gonna’ need the book that Paper Patch provided in the link. I thought that Elmer “Been There-Done That” Keith wrote an article on what you want to do, but Paper Patch’s link made the light bulb come on.

My SWAG -- Scientific Wild Arsed Guess -- is that as smokeless does not obturate the bullet like Black Powder, bullet alloy and diameter and paper thickness are probably more critical with the bore/groove diameter than loading with Black Powder and soft bullets.

You might want to post your query on the Cast Bullet (CBO) and American Single Shot Rifle (ASSRA) Associations’ boards:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl

Now having said that, ‘dunno’ how helpful ASSRA might be as that is a Schuetzen shooting oriented organization. But soemone there may have some information.

As for CBO, there may be some institutional memory about a previous thread or link or article. Not sure, but many years ago, I thought that the late Frank Marshall, a writer for the “Fouling Shot”, the CBO periodical, commented on PP and smokeless. I have not been a member of CBO for more than few years and my memory maybe faulty.

[Ben_Rumson]

A question I've always had about wrapping the bullets... Does it matter what direction the finishing edge of the patch faces in relation to the bullets rotation? With it or against it?... Against it will have the finishing edge more liable to catch air and shed off as soon as it leaves the muzzle... the other direction the edge is held down by air pressure and won't catch air...Or does it matter?...I've read that the patch gets cut by the rifling in the process down the tube... Therefore it seems like rotation and forward movement will make them shed one way or the other ASAP...

[Don McDowell]

Ben it really doesnt seem to matter.

[Ben_Rumson]

Thanks Don...

[Nazgul]

PP works very well with smokeless. I size the bullet/patch to groove diameter.

Use the 550 gr RCBS PP mould for the 4570 and 458 Win Mag. Loads of fun!

Don

[Ray Newman]

Shooter, found 11 pages of threads 'bout Paper Patch and smokeless --

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=62

[cas]

As for lube.. I use Rooster jacket on mine. I would say maybe less as a lube and more of a way to keep the paper on during storage and handling. I don't think the lube hurts any though. Got to be easier on the barrel.


Though I did find in some guns that rolling them in powdered graphite (after the Rooster jacket had dried) shrunk the groups. (in some guns but not in others) I don't even remember how I stumbled upon trying this.

[Don McDowell]

Try some jojoba oil in place of the Rooster.