TV Show "American Guns" made a new Win 1866. Anyone see it?

kaschi · Post by **kaschi** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:01 pm

I'd never heard of this show before but saw it was to air at 10pm Monday evening EST (believe it was on Discovery) so I tuned in. There's a gunsmithing/gunshop out west somewhere that actually built an 1866 Yellowboy from scratch starting with milling a solid block of brass for the receiver all the way through the engraving process. It was for a rancher who wanted an American made one. The price was in the $20,000 range

and it's supposed to be the only or one of the only 1866's made in the US since Winchester production stopped in the late 1800's. Obviously out of most everyone's price range but nonetheless interesting to follow and observe the steps of production. Anyone else watch it?

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:20 pm

yes..I saw portions of that particular show...very nice rifle...
they should think about putting that into production....
but 20 grand is a bit rediculous....

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:33 pm

Yes, not only did I see the show, I've been in the shop a number of times and know some of the people as the shop is about 9 miles from me. Gunsmoke Guns, and the owner are well known in the Denver area, however, Rich Wyatt doesn't have a very good reputation in the Denver area as they have been known to mess with people's firearms when they have them for repair.

There have been allegations that they ruined high end 1911s by engraving their name on the slides without permission, did faulty repairs, etc. In another instance a woman complained to the local news of Rich forcing her to purchase the firearm before the background check form 4473, was completed and approved. It was denied and he refused to cancel the sale and offered to sell the firearm for 20% commission as he couldn't let her take possession. This turns out to be a violation of Federal Firearms Law in that the firearm can't be purchased unless and until the form 4473 has been executed and approved so he got into trouble with the ATF over that.

He's well known as a bit of a hard *** in gun circles and is often times obnoxious to customers he decides are 'wasting his time.' Many potential customers turn and walk out after meeting Rich, however, my only financial dealings with them was a purchase of a used hunting rifle some time ago before I was aware of all these issues and luckily, all went well. I've also heard that since the show came out Rich has really gotten a 'big head' and is now almost impossible to deal with, however, I've not been back to confirm this in person.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:20 pm

kaschi wrote:I'd never heard of this show before but saw it was to air at 10pm Monday evening EST (believe it was on Discovery) so I tuned in. There's a gunsmithing/gunshop out west somewhere that actually built an 1866 Yellowboy from scratch starting with milling a solid block of brass for the receiver all the way through the engraving process. It was for a rancher who wanted an American made one. The price was in the $20,000 range and it's supposed to be the only or one of the only 1866's made in the US since Winchester production stopped in the late 1800's. Obviously out of most everyone's price range but nonetheless interesting to follow and observe the steps of production. Anyone else watch it?

The receiver may have been in house machined but I'm pretty sure the majority of the internal parts are Uberti. The tell was the Firing pin Extension Stop. For years Uberti used a pin across the breech bolt. But, because of some pin failures they went to the current stop that looks much like the original that also retracted the one piece original firing pin when levered. The difference is the Uberti part doesn't have the retracting feature. Neither did the one on the show. That and many of the other parts looked like Uberti not original style parts.
Also, the original was chambered for the 44 rim fire. This gun was in 44-40. Not a big deal because it is my understanding that Win did some proto's in 44-40.

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:39 pm

I've seen a couple episodes of the show but, like other special intrest shows (motorcycle building, auto building, guns, etc.) it has become a "reality" show where the "drama" is more important than the content, in this case guns. It also seems like the same writer scripted the shows as they all use the same phrasing, and always up against the deadline for a build...

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:49 pm

COSteve wrote:Yes, not only did I see the show, I've been in the shop a number of times and know some of the people as the shop is about 9 miles from me. Gunsmoke Guns, and the owner are well known in the Denver area, however, Rich Wyatt doesn't have a very good reputation in the Denver area as they have been known to mess with people's firearms when they have them for repair.

There have been allegations that they ruined high end 1911s by engraving their name on the slides without permission, did faulty repairs, etc. In another instance a woman complained to the local news of Rich forcing her to purchase the firearm before the background check form 4473, was completed and approved. It was denied and he refused to cancel the sale and offered to sell the firearm for 20% commission as he couldn't let her take possession. This turns out to be a violation of Federal Firearms Law in that the firearm can't be purchased unless and until the form 4473 has been executed and approved so he got into trouble with the ATF over that.

He's well known as a bit of a hard *** in gun circles and is often times obnoxious to customers he decides are 'wasting his time.' Many potential customers turn and walk out after meeting Rich, however, my only financial dealings with them was a purchase of a used hunting rifle some time ago before I was aware of all these issues and luckily, all went well. I've also heard that since the show came out Rich has really gotten a 'big head' and is now almost impossible to deal with, however, I've not been back to confirm this in person.

I would say that was my impression of him from the get go. He seems to be quite a piece of work. I'm just going to steer clear of him and not watch the show. UNFORTUNATELY, I did see that stuff last night. I know, it is only TV, but to BUILD a gun when one could buy a repro is just so much darn foolishness. I felt as though he was simply defrauding that customer. That show bothers me so much that I watched ice cream making on the H2.

milespb · Post by **milespb** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:04 pm

Steve,
Not knowing a thing about him other than watching the show, I would not doubt a word of what you say. He comes across as a joke to me.

rock-steady · Post by **rock-steady** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:09 pm

Ive caught a couple of episodes. I watched the one with the pink 1911 with morbid fascination. Come on now, a pink 1911 with white grips! Now my wife wants one!

Oh, and I bet Pitchy could build a much better hand cannon than their little 50 caliber one.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:38 pm

If Discovery Channel’s intention is to present a character you love to hate, then I’d wager they’re succeeding...Now at commercial interruption from my preferred TV show I'll tune into the show a minute or two for a few cynical chuckles.....I’m afraid I got a worse impression than Hobie from their premier episode.... A customer was advised it would be better if they scratch built him a knuckle duster pistol to shoot rather than risk shooting his original specimen in excellent mechanical condition. My thought upon hearing that was, for a comparatively miniscule amount compared to the cost of scratch building a knuckle duster, they could of had black powder rim fire ammo made for it...But of course that would have defeated the owners goals of showing his expertise..... Rich’s “expertise” really reared it’s ugly head when he insisted the little gun’s cylinder be made of stainless steel because of the added strain smokeless 22 rim fire ammo might put on a, say, plain old 4140 cylinder?...Har Har.. Under the “gotta have it yesterday” rush, things were problematic from the get go...The side plate fit up had an extreme case of gap-osis and had to be redone...Gripes about how long it was taking to fit up the hammer-trigger arrangement were heard... Three attempts were made on the cylinder before success came.. ...Of course Rich didn’t miss a turn to lord more of his gun expertise over the “machinist”, effectively belittling him in the process”.
Actually they lost me right away when they flew out by private helicopter to see about buying some guns...Then came the Knuckle Duster "Tomfoolery"

TMair · Post by **TMair** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:02 pm

Geeze it's amazing we are all in agreement on this guy, but his daughter is kind of hot

Terry

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:20 pm

I saw the episode where the guy wanted to get into SASS and rather than recommend a perfectly fine $800-1800 USFA, Ruger or similar, instead suggested scratch building a $11,000 Colt Clone.

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:34 pm

i seen the show on the $11.000 clone, the guy that bought the gun
was a clone to meathead on all in the family & him & rich
made a great pair

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:52 pm

I know the guys from Sons of Guns and can attest to the TV guys making them act a certain way to increase the drama.

The guys who know this guy, im sure know more about him than we do. If you say he is a certain way I tend to believe you.

spaceman spiff · Post by **spaceman spiff** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:55 pm

mikld wrote:I've seen a couple episodes of the show but, like other special intrest shows (motorcycle building, auto building, guns, etc.) it has become a "reality" show where the "drama" is more important than the content, in this case guns. It also seems like the same writer scripted the shows as they all use the same phrasing, and always up against the deadline for a build...

Yep. The "reality" format really wrecks the show and others like it for me. I bought a 1911
from Les Baer and was glad that their company did not have any deadline on finishing mine.
Some things cannot be rushed. I would not want a hastily prepared firearm regardless
of who made it.

spaceman

Udy · Post by **Udy** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:07 pm

It is amazing that this guy has any business. I can not judge any other than what I have seen on tv, however I feel the same as every one else. The guy comes off as a know it all, and treats his costomers like cr@p, I feel like reaching through the picture box and strangling him. At least it isn't just me.
Reguardless, it is a show about guns and interest me, I will likely keep watching.

Now that Sons of Guns show, they do good work and treat people right, at least as far as I can tell. I enjoy watching that one, despite the "reality" part of it. A lot of shows could be better if they just told it how it was and cut out the b.s.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:08 pm

I don't know.. On Sons of Guns they charged a guy $200 to clean Type99 Arisaka, but were unable to disassemble the bolt as far as I could tell.. However they did hand load a few rounds so the guy could say he fired it... Guy was happy, So I guess it's all good...

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:15 pm

My feeling is this...

If I love guns, and I do, I live and breathe guns, history, etc..., and the show is so insipid that I get a physical reaction and won't watch it, then the producers have done something wrong. I have done some stuff to see and work with guns... BTW, I'm too old to watch a show just 'cause somebody's daughter younger than my daughters is on it.

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:32 pm

American guns is way over the top. I would never give that guy a dime. He isn't as knowledgable about guns as he thinks, he is too self important and his prices are ridicules.
I thought the same about the 1866 internal parts, they weren't made in the USA. But I like Sons of Guns. Red jacket seems to have more common folks and not out to screw people out of their money. But then again there is a sucker born everyday.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:07 pm

I've caught a couple of the shows and I get a real bad feeling when I watch the head guy (Rich?). He seems like a rip to me and definitely full of himself. I don't care to give my time to something like that.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:03 am

I have seen the show once or twice and was not impressed at all. The show I seen was where a guy brought in 2 high end guns. The guy selling them was supposedly a regular customer and knew the value of his guns and estimated the value at $40k. Rich shot him a LOWBALL offer I think of around 15 or 18, I cant remember for sure. They guy basically told him, you cant buy the optics on these guns for that. He was pretty much ready to walk out and when RICH sensed it, the offer jumped to $35 or $38K real quick. IMO, to have gotten such a lowball offer on quality guns would have pushed me out the door and I would have refused to do buisness with him.

The other show was him trying to show boat and give his wife a gold 1911 with diamond and ruby grips that were so gawdy I honestly think it would have hurt to shoot it.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:20 am

I watched one episode and got the same impression about the shop owner, and the guy's wife seemed to be all about her augmented appendages. All in all the family made me want to wretch and I said something ugly and tuned away. Hopefully the show will die fast.

Now the Red Jacket show I can take. At least their AKs have a good reputation.

Oly

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:24 am

I'd suspect the $20,000 Winchester was as much of a staged event as the ridiculously expensive "Colt" they built for the preacher. The preacher later said he was recruited to appear on the show, did not pay for the gun & was not allowed to keep it.

This bunch certainly did not build a '66 "from scratch".
Denis

dandee · Post by **dandee** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:20 am

Could have saved money and just got him and original 1866.

JB · Post by JB » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:55 am

That show and Sons of Guns are terrible and seem staged. Rich must be a dirt bag for having his wife and daughter parade around dressed the way they are for ratings. Some of the deals he makes after flying out in his personal helicopter have to be staged for TV.

The Sons of Guns show lost my respect after the "gunsmiths" explained to a customer that an Arisaka rifle didn't have a safety and how rare the ammunition was for it.

jlchucker · Post by **jlchucker** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:51 am

I've watched few episodes, including the recent one with the hand made, brass-framed levergun. That couldn't have shown the entire manufacturing process. Staged is right! Anybody notice that they never show anything about heat-treating or inspection in their build-from-scratch schemes? That volley gun they made reminded me of the days, way back when, one of my younger brothers found a piece of steel tubing and tried to make his own, home-made little cannon. He was probably around 10 years old, and used match-heads as a propellant. My mother was not amused when after he fired it off outside a couple of times. His third shot blew his little breechplug out with what amounted to backblast, and it pierced Mom's kitchen wall. This guy's volley gun was a little more sturdy, but he's got more tooling and is older than age 10, too.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:30 am

It's only TV. The first time I saw they owned a helicopter, I knew something was off. Never knew a gun shop that could own a helicopter

And yes, the daughter and mother are hot.

Hagler · Post by **Hagler** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:58 am

...not the only flub, but a glaring one, from The Discovery Channel's Web site:

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/american-gu ... ly-05.html

"Rich and Kurt look over a fine presentation Model 1992 Winchester."

Shawn

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:39 pm

I've watched a couple of episodes of "American Guns" and more than a few of "Sons of Guns"... I like some of Sons of Guns, at least the owner there seems to credit his staff with their abilities, even if he seems demanding.

But, on American Guns, that clown is like sitting down to talk with Mr. Knows-it-all Ego, himself, a famous gunwriter. Yep, the guy is probably much more knowledgeable about guns and gear than I am... but I don't need a lecture on how much he knows about vintage leather when I just asked if he had actually used any leather from a particular maker he recommended; (and this was after being told, "ask anything").

As far as building a replica vs repairing an original or buying an existing reproduction... well, I would gamble that it's the producers of the show that're paying the difference, not the "customer".

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:02 pm

Notwithstanding what I've heard and read about Rich, I'm sure that the 'agenda' of the producers is to make for a controversial show with elements the viewers will love and hate (or love to hate). I feel that all the 'reality' tv is staged and it's not by accident that the wife and daughter at hotties because this adds to the overall show.

My wife and I were in Vegas last year and stopped by the Gold and Silver pawn shop because we'd seen it on tv. While most of the 'actors' weren't there, I talked to a couple of the bouncers I'd seen in the background and they said that much of the 'reality' is scripted which doesn't surprise me in the least.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:30 pm

A pawnshop that needs Bouncers doesn't inspire my vote...

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:41 pm

DPris wrote:I'd suspect the $20,000 Winchester was as much of a staged event as the ridiculously expensive "Colt" they built for the preacher. The preacher later said he was recruited to appear on the show, did not pay for the gun & was not allowed to keep it.

This bunch certainly did not build a '66 "from scratch".
Denis

Thanks for piping up Denis. I suspected as much as neither person said a thing about the price!

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:47 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:A pawnshop that needs Bouncers doesn't inspire my vote...

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:38 pm

Hobie wrote:
DPris wrote:I'd suspect the $20,000 Winchester was as much of a staged event as the ridiculously expensive "Colt" they built for the preacher. The preacher later said he was recruited to appear on the show, did not pay for the gun & was not allowed to keep it.

This bunch certainly did not build a '66 "from scratch".
Denis
Thanks for piping up Denis. I suspected as much as neither person said a thing about the price!

If they actually made that one-of gun from the ground up then they lost money at $20,000. That gun has so many parts requiring so many machining steps there is no way it can be done for that money unless the labor is not in the price. One-of's like that are labors of love.
Take a look at any of Alphawolf45's acceptionally well made projects. Show latest one of my homemade rifles
If you put a minimum of $50 per manhour on any of the 73's he is working on, think about each step in the machining you will easily see at $20,000 it's a break even deal at best at least on the first one.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:58 pm

Watched maybe three times and that was twice too many!Arrogance and misinformation are turn offs not to mention the unbelievable prices.

Buzzard II · Post by **Buzzard II** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:19 pm

If you can't dazzle the viewers with brilliance, baffle them with B.S.

TMair · Post by **TMair** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:31 pm

COSteve wrote:Notwithstanding what I've heard and read about Rich, I'm sure that the 'agenda' of the producers is to make for a controversial show with elements the viewers will love and hate (or love to hate). I feel that all the 'reality' tv is staged and it's not by accident that the wife and daughter at hotties because this adds to the overall show.

My wife and I were in Vegas last year and stopped by the Gold and Silver pawn shop because we'd seen it on tv. While most of the 'actors' weren't there, I talked to a couple of the bouncers I'd seen in the background and they said that much of the 'reality' is scripted which doesn't surprise me in the least.

They are all the same, just like American Chopper, their bikes look like an over chromed toy you would buy at Wallmart, and when they auctioned off their bikes, they are the ones who bought them, not any one else, but they are living in big houses, and driving nice cars!

I watched American guns I think twice, that was it for me, I Watched Sons of guns several times, until the boss started giving the emploies greef for "screwups" when it was obvious that it was all staged, I felt like he caved for the all mighty dollar and that is when I stopped watching!!
Terry

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:45 am

On the pawnshop deal, the two times I've been there the bouncer was just to regulate tourist flow.
He'd let so many in, wait till an equivalent number left, let in another group, and so on.
Very crowded otherwise.
Denis

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:14 am

a "BIG HEAD" should be easy to spot--I think... :)

bajabill · Post by **bajabill** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:08 am

I dont remember who said this recently (some company owner interview) and I will have to summarize it

Some companies and people work hard so they can reduce the price of their products, while others work hard to raise their prices.

The owner of the gun shop in this show is certainly in the later group.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:09 am

I think it points up our hunger for firearms shows that we ever turn to these types of shows.

SMP · Post by **SMP** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:12 pm

Reality TV is staged,but we all know that.I know someone that was on Pawn Stars and the whole transaction was bogus. It was entertaining to watch, American Guns isn't IMHO.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:21 pm

Oh man -- i don't even know where to start with this show. - i tivoed a couple of episodes and watched 'em earlier today

The dude has a heckuva nice looking 'ol lady (it looked like a dead heat in a zeppelin race) --- but the rest is comical -----

I saw both the 1866 and the knuckleduster episode . The "rancher" who wanted the yellowboy looked straight out of an aqua velva commercial -- and not once was the prospect of finding the real deal even mentioned -- i would think if someone had 20k to blow, he/she would look for a legit period piece and not a repro of any kind -- i also suspected they had to have waded through a Brownells catalog or something to get all the bits 'n pieces

The knuckleduster episode i think had the dude shooting gallon iced tea jugs off another rancher's patio --- I don't buy it for a minute that the rich rancher is going to entertain selling off his guns like that -- then later they take to the harleys to go shoot water balloons with the knuckle gun ---- and the guy acts shocked when he gets doused after shooting a 10 gallon balloon at point blank range

Oh well, its a show about guns --- i can't promise i won't watch it again (zeppelin races are entertaining too) , but it makes me ache for an American Pickers marathon as an alternative

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:37 pm

I rarely watch reality TV, but since this series was gun related I figured what the heck, and watched the first episode. I also rarely contact any network to give input, but in the case of this show I made another exception.
I have rarely seen so much stuff exaggerated, and scripted to enhance the prime charachters of the show! I told myself to stick with it and watch the entire first episode, but it was all I could do to get through the staged helicopter ride, and case full of money scenario. Plus the outlandish pricing of what he pays for guns, or on some how little he pays.
Don't even get me started on how anyone could be stupid enough to have them hand build guns for thousands of times more money than they could just buy an equal from the local dealer. What a crock!
I was just so irritated when it ended that I went straight to the computer and wrote Discovery to tell them how poorly the show was put together, and how much I disliked it. I hope it doesn't last even one season, as it's the worst representation of gunsmiths and gun dealers I've ever seen on television!
To Discovery's credit they did contact me to say thank you, and said they'd pass my email on to the producers.

barbarossa · Post by **barbarossa** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:58 pm

When pawn stars first came out I watched it alot and it didn t take long to figure out that something smelt funny.The guy who appraises the antique guns for them the owner of Tortuga trading ,if you go to his web site you will find just about all the guns that appeared on the show on his site for sale.My question is did they end up there after they were bought from the pawn shop or did the guns actually come from tortuga trading in the first place to be brought to the pawn shop by a dupe and pretended to be sold there.

kaschi · Post by **kaschi** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:07 pm

I watched it again tonight because there was nothing else on, and it was, after all, something about guns.....
But that guy really is a hard core "all about me and money" type! I couldn't believe how he haggled with people trying to get their guns for so little money. And that look he had in his eye while doing it to boot.
Yeah, I'm with you guys on this one.

P.S. Wonder how many of the customers who visit the shop on American Guns check in here regularly?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:16 pm

Butt......The Wife and Daughter are hot