My admission of guilt............

[hightime]

This is hard for me but I need to tell. Maybe I can get better. After reading about the 1895 Marlin CB, blowing up, I revisited the logic and specs of last fall's loads for hunting with the 45-70. I found that my figuring was flawed and the result was probable pressures higher than recomended. What I had done was use the powder I had on hand , H-335 , and I found specs in the Lyman reloading book where it was used for the Ruger #1 and I tried to portion it down to the Marlin. My math was off. I used 55 gr and by refiguring, I now think I was over 30,000 cup. I had shot three rounds at a target and three into three deer, out of a batch of forty. At the time I was thrilled with the accuracy, albiet, hard on the shoulder.
Now as I noticed what I'd done, I got disappointed in myself. In order to continue reloading I need to get over my flaws of '' if a little is good, and move on.

Some people shouldn't reload. I want to change and do this thing. By posting this I will and move on to a more safe hobby.

P.S. I pulled all those bullets and reoaded them with IMR 3031, 51.5 gr. 400 jacked Speers.


Owen

[Old Savage]

According to the Speer manual #12 you were not over the range they recommend for lever action rifles which is 54 to 58 grs with H335 with their 400 gr bullet and the velocity they list would be about 1760 fps. They suggest the top of that range is about 28,000 CUP.

[J Miller]

Owen,

I've never loaded for the 45-70 in any kind of rifle. I have loaded for other black powder era cartridges though. While matching the load level to the strength level of rifle is the correct way to go, do not fall into the paranoia that all these guns are week and if you exceed black powder pressure they are gonna KABOOM. That is not the case.

The 1895 in the thread running here was fed a poison pill round that far far in excess of what it could handle. An incorrect bullet, as well as an over charge of powder and the pressures went off the scale. End result a destroyed rifle and an injured shooter.



Joe

[.45colt]

From the Lyman 49th edition that load with a 400gr ran 29,500cup. if We look at the post about the "Blowup" today We can see that w30wfc has added that the RCBS bullet has to be seated 3/8" deeper in the case. I think that is what caused it.

[C. Cash]

Many of us have had a wake up moment. The important thing is to recognize it, as you have(even if the load was not over) and make the changes.

[hightime]

Yes, maybe the gun would be ok with that load, but my point is I did screw up. I need to pay better attention. Or I shouldn't be reloading.

I will be better and will move on. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll someday be good at this hobby.

Owen

[mikld]

Yes, maybe the gun would be ok with that load, but my point is I did screw up. I need to pay better attention. Or I shouldn't be reloading.

I will be better and will move on. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll someday be good at this hobby.

Owen

You've already started to work on the number one offender in reloading; not paying enough attention to the task at hand. I'm sure that you will do fine especially since you've openly admittted your fault and have commited to changing...

[Hobie]

The primary character requirement for a reloader is ATTENTION TO DETAIL. You can't SWAG it. You can't almost get the numbers right. When you're a really advanced handloader you can, with some trepidation, ease your way through the minefield of incomplete data and reason through things to come up with logical changes but you must have ATTENTION TO DETAIL. I don't know that it would be too broad a statement to say that every single error I've ever made in life can be attributed either to ignorance or to my lack of attention to detail. Study of the subject helps mitigate ignorance but you have to have self-discipline to maintain attention to detail.

[madman4570]

This is hard for me but I need to tell. Maybe I can get better. After reading about the 1895 Marlin CB, blowing up, I revisited the logic and specs of last fall's loads for hunting with the 45-70. I found that my figuring was flawed and the result was probable pressures higher than recomended. What I had done was use the powder I had on hand , H-335 , and I found specs in the Lyman reloading book where it was used for the Ruger #1 and I tried to portion it down to the Marlin. My math was off. I used 55 gr and by refiguring, I now think I was over 30,000 cup. I had shot three rounds at a target and three into three deer, out of a batch of forty. At the time I was thrilled with the accuracy, albiet, hard on the shoulder.
Now as I noticed what I'd done, I got disappointed in myself. In order to continue reloading I need to get over my flaws of '' if a little is good, and move on.

Some people shouldn't reload. I want to change and do this thing. By posting this I will and move on to a more safe hobby.

P.S. I pulled all those bullets and reoaded them with IMR 3031, 51.5 gr. 400 jacked Speers.


Owen

Any man that admits his flaws and takes action in the mind set of (I screwed up/but I admit it and I'll make it right)is a man that in my book is very valued and is respected!
Good on you------------God Bless

[LeverBob]

Any man that admits his flaws and takes action in the mind set of (I screwed up/but I admit it and I'll make it right)is a man that in my book is very valued and is respected!
Good on you------------God Bless[/quote]

Couldn't say it any better M'self....

LB

[hightime]

You guys are very kind. I do believe in taking credit for my screw up and working hard to not repeat them.
Thank, I think you understand why I brought it up....So I can move past it.

Owen

[win38-55]

Good man. Now move on. With confidence.

[earlmck]

Dang, Owen, I'm having a hard time seeing where you did anything that'd be called a "screw-up". You took a powder of known useful burning rate, reduced the amount in line with the rifle you were going to use it in, and produced a successful load. If us reloaders didn't do that sort of thing we'd never be able to get any use out of those great bargains in surplus military powder that occasionally come our way. Or develop a load for an old cartridge using one of the new powders that only have loading data for "modern" cartridges.

The one thing I have garnered out of this discussion and the 1895 blow-up discussion is a strong suspicion that when you take a Marlin 336 and chamber it for a round with the girth of the 45-70, you may not have the margin of safety remaining that our modern guns usually have. A gun designed for a steady diet of 30,000 psi loads should withstand an ooops that delivers 50,000 psi without dramatic damage. It seems to me that maybe the Marlin 1895 can't be relied upon to do that with that skimpy bit of steel surrounding the case. So maybe next time, reduce it another 5% just for grins.

Enough talkin'. Let's go do some shootin'!

[Griff]

The primary character requirement for a reloader is ATTENTION TO DETAIL. You can't SWAG it. You can't almost get the numbers right. When you're a really advanced handloader you can, with some trepidation, ease your way through the minefield of incomplete data and reason through things to come up with logical changes but you must have ATTENTION TO DETAIL. I don't know that it would be too broad a statement to say that every single error I've ever made in life can be attributed either to ignorance or to my lack of attention to detail. Study of the subject helps mitigate ignorance but you have to have self-discipline to maintain attention to detail.

EXACTLY RIGHT!

But, let him who has never made an error be the first to criticize. I've pulled my share of bullets, sometimes because I've thought I'd erred; others, because I had. But, only once did that err get into a gun. A bulged cylinder in my Colt was the result; that was 22 years ago, I'm still ever cautious.

[Old Savage]

Good points there. Had to knock open the bolt on a Ruger 77 R 7x57. Too much powder.

[Old Ironsights]

Any man that admits his flaws and takes action in the mind set of (I screwed up/but I admit it and I'll make it right)is a man that in my book is very valued and is respected!
Good on you------------God Bless

Ya mean like "losing" a range bag with over 250 rds of .357 handloads - some hot enough to damage guns of lesser beef than a '92 or Ruger - and beginning to panic a bit at the thought that the bag might have not made it into the truck & got picked up by a townie, only to find out that he left them at Camp where he couldn't find them in the first place...

[hightime]

My whole life I've bumped the limits. Speed limits, snowmobile racing, dirt bike, and even in my building bus. Somebody has to. But not in this hobby. It's different, and I want to be good at it. I'm learning and now the time to see the differance.

Owen

[hightime]

My mistake seems to be adapting my own logic to arrive at a load that I didn't have quite enough information for.
As it turns out ''Old Savage is right, some reloading data allows for that much H 335. On line I found data from Hodgon whick suggest loads as high as 40,000 cup. That would be 58 gr of H335 on a 400 gr Speer and I guess 55 would be 28,000 to 29,000. I was trying to use data from the Lyman book.
How can there be such a wide oppinion on safe loads?

I will research load data on line as well as in what books that I might have.

Owen

[Old Savage]

Speer claims that 58 gr yields about 28,000 CUP. What logic did you use? As a note here. It seems to me that it is usually safe to interpolate on loads that don't change components of change them in very known ways but extrapolating data can lead to surprises. Looks to me like you were on the money here. Rifles can be a variable that have to be considered. I like to shoot some factory to see how that looks in fired cases, what velocities I get and how it performs in general - sound, recoil etc. I usually only try to reproduce factory ballistics. If I want a heartier 45-70 I would likely just get a Ruger #1. I want reliable accurate ammo with the desired components and I don't try to make them something they are not. I would estimate looking at their loading data that 55 grs is more like 21,000 CUP or thereabouts. They indicate it would take 62 gr to get to avg 35,000 CUP seated to the front cannelure for a Marlin length load.

[Charles]

When I look back on my life, I find most of the valuable things I have learned came from my mistakes. Some folks don't learn from there mistakes, but many do. You are one of those who do..my hat is off to you. Jolly good show!!!

[Swampman]

A Marlin 1895 is a modern rifle, and is supposed to be able to handle 43,500 CUP.

[Griff]

A Marlin 1895 is a modern rifle, and is supposed to be able to handle 43,500 CUP.

Where'd you hear that number? The current 336 based 1895 is a not modern rifle, at least not in the sense of handling pressures like a bolt or strong single shot, like a Ruger #1. That why the reloading manuals list them separately, under "lever actions". The pressures the rifle is capable of differs with the chambering. Even the vaunted 1886 has a design limitation in the same spot as the Marlin, the thin web of metal between the mag tube & barrel threads.

The 375 Win shows max loads in the 48-49,000 CUP range, but this is in a barrel w/more metal surrounding the cartridge. Max loads in the lever action .45-70 top out @ 40,000 CUP. And conventional wisdom sez one works UP to max loads cautiously; not start there.

I would be interesting to duplicate his load and fire it in a pressure barrel to see just what CUP he generated. I'd be surprised if it didn't AT LEAST double that minimum load indicated in the loading guide.

[Old Savage]

The 43,500 CUP number is wrong. Where did that come from?

[Old Savage]

The 43,500 CUP number is wrong - where did it come from?

[Swampman]

It is correct...read the August 2007 issue of Handloader Magazine. It gives a nice list of 43,500 CUP loads for the Marlin 1895 which is a modern rifle. Even the original Trapdoors will take a whole lot more than most people believe.

The 336 has been chambered in some very high pressure chamberings from the factory. The 450M comes to mind.

Cor-Bon, PMC, Garrett, Buffalo Bore, and others have loaded factory .45-70 ammo to 43,500 CUP. Personally I never go above 28,000 CUP even in my Ruger because I can't see the point.

[Old Savage]

Nonsense, Handloader is not the authority here.

Who wrote the article that was in Handloader.

LYman # 46 lists no loads for any rifle at that pressure, not the Rugers included.

Be very careful of what you read on the internet here unless you check it out with reputable industry sources.

[Swampman]

Brian Pearce wrote it, and he's right.

[Old Savage]

You have no way to know if he is right. Does Marlin test their guns to that pressure and certify that they are safe to that pressure? I seriously doubt they do. Listed in the Speer manual - SAAMI specs for the Marlin 444 is 44,000 CUP however there is as stated more metal there. Brian Pearce is not in charge standards. Handloads.Com lists that as 42,000 PSI for those interested.

[Swampman]

He's right....

The 450M has even thinner chamber walls than the .45-70 and it's loaded to 43,500 CUP. Some Commerical .45-70 Marlin ammo is loaded 43,500 CUP. I'd bet the safety margin is 50% more than that, as that is the industry standard. Still 21,000 CUP is more than enough for anything that walks.

The Marlin can handle more than we can.