OT--Attacked by a grizzly--recent.

[getitdone1]

Yesterday a 57 yr old man and his wife were hiking in Yellowstone Natl. PK when they were attacked by a female grizzly with cubs. The man was killed. News says this makes 3 deaths from grizzlies in little more than a year in that area. This one, in the park, and two others in surrounding area. They say Yellowstone area has from 600-1000 grizzlies and numbers have been growing.

As many of you know, the two worst types of encounters with a grizzly are when a female is with cubs and when they are at or near their (or someone else's) kill. They say the grizzly responsible for this last incident is still at large in the park.

What a really terrible experience for the wife to have live with for the rest of her life.

Surely pepper spray is allowed in the parks--or is it? If not I'd be carrying a strong walking stick with a very good point. Walking in known grizzly country without a gun. Makes you wonder. Years ago I recall them asking me if I had any guns with me when I entered that park. Bears come first?

Don

[AJMD429]

Whatever idiots pushed for the handgun/CCW ban in federal parks should be chained to a large tree in grizzly country and wrapped in bacon.

[FWiedner]

My reading of the several accounts is that they turned a blind corner and encountered a sow and cubs and nature followed it's expected course.

Maybe they weren't making enough prudent noise, maybe they were slow on the draw with the Counter Assault (or didn't have any), or maybe they just ran into a mean sow.

I feel for the guy's wife, but I will shamefully admit that I laugh when I see videos of careless tourists being mauled when they run out of snacks while being friendly to the cute little bears.

[piller]

Bears are omnivores. Despite the fact that we are capable of using tools, we are made of meat. Omnivores do eat meat as well as vegetables. I don't blame the bear. I do blame idiots who won't let us go armed in national parks with high bear populations.

[kimwcook]

As far as I know you can carry in most national parks, but not in certain areas. Offices and other buildings are federal and don't allow general carry, as is the rule in most federal buildings. Even myself being an county LEO I can't carry in federal buildings. Carrying firearms is now subject to state and local law, not federal.

[Tycer]

Yep. National Parks are OK to carry following state and local laws.

[getitdone1]

Read in the paper this morning that they are not going to do anything with that bear.

Ralph Edwards, British Columbia pioneer, was mauled by his bull. He didn't say it was only being a bull and let it go at that--he shot it with his model 8 35 Rem and said it didn't know what hit it. Ralph killed many grizzlies. Can you imagine his saying a bear was only being true to it's nature if it had mauled or killed one of his kids? Don't think so.

Out of respect for the victim and victim's wife and to prevent that bear from ever doing that again--it should be hunted down and killed. Of course that won't begin to solve all bear problems there but it'll solve that one.

Don

[gamekeeper]

I have no issue with anyone shooting a bear or other dangerous animal when they are about to be attacked but hunting down and shooting a bear for defending its cubs is like arresting and jailing woman for shooting a rapist.
If the bear population is out of control then hunting should be allowed to reduce numbers but if there were no dangerous animals, the wild-country would lose a lot of its allure and it would be no different to a stroll in the park.
Hikers should carry more than pepper spray if they want to trespass in bear country.

[Ji in Hawaii]

If this was a big boar grizzly that fed on human flesh then definitely hunt it down and kill it as it would go out looking for trouble but a mother grizzly protecting it's young from a perceived threat? No way. If you want to prevent this from ever happening again you either have to keep ignorant tourists out of the woods or kill every female grizzly who has the potential of having babies. Yes, carrying a suitable defense arm would be one good preventative measure but even if allowed with freedom 90% of the people visiting national parks are tree hugging Disney brainwashed yuppies that would never consider carrying a gun even if they could. These things happen with sad consequences but can't blame the she bear.

[Mike D.]

I ALWAYS carry when we go to Yosemite. Our camp, consisting mostly of retired and semi-active LEOs, is as well equipped as the rangers and they are aware of it. No problems have ever occurred as a result of our being armed, although no weapons are taken on trails or into establishments. Those are for two legged transgressors.

[El Chivo]

It's not about revenge or eliminating a rogue bear but more like establishing the rules. If bears teach their young fear of humans we would be safer. What killing the bear, or any bear, would do is teach other bears that people are to be feared. Maybe they should allow a special 3 day hunt so bears can learn this. Lots of blasting, a few bears taken, might make an impression.

[Mike D.]

The fact that the NPS cares more about the bears raises my hackles. Grizzlies on the increase? Like the darned wolves it's time to thin 'em out to a controlled resident population.

A useful hiking tool might be a battery powered cattle stick. Better yet a taser. I like that idea, but you'd have to be up close and personal with 'ol Grizz to apply that one.

[harry]

It's not about revenge or eliminating a rogue bear but more like establishing the rules. If bears teach their young fear of humans we would be safer. What killing the bear, or any bear, would do is teach other bears that people are to be feared. Maybe they should allow a special 3 day hunt so bears can learn this. Lots of blasting, a few bears taken, might make an impression.

Your kidding right, Ok lets get a group of bears together and shoot one of them. Now you live bears go out and tell your bear friends about it.
Harry

[Rusty]

IIRC the event that changed the laws to allow carry in national parks was when an army specialist home on leave was camping in Ocala Nat'l forest with his girlfriend. They were gunned down by some nut with a .22 rifle.

[getitdone1]

Why don't the rangers at that park get on the ball and always remove a female bear and it's cubs from high human traffic areas? By not doing so they are asking for things like this to happen.

Same with a bear at or near a kill in a high human traffic area.

In both of the above cases, this is when bears are most dangerous.

Don

[L_Kilkenny]

but even if allowed with freedom 90% of the people visiting national parks are tree hugging Disney brainwashed yuppies that would never consider carrying a gun even if they could. These things happen with sad consequences but can't blame the she bear.

So basically we have survival of the fittest and nature taking it course. To tell the truth, I don't have a whole lot of problems with this. If someone don't like guns and don't want to carry, so be it. But I don't know if it's right to kill a bear because some idiot is to dumb to arm themself .Me? I like being top of the food chain. Lord forgive me.

LK

[Bullard4075]

Why don't the rangers at that park get on the ball and always remove a female bear and it's cubs from high human traffic areas? By not doing so they are asking for things like this to happen.

Same with a bear at or near a kill in a high human traffic area.

In both of the above cases, this is when bears are most dangerous.

Don

And just how would this be done??
Nice theory but not practical.

[model55]

Don't know if it is just Advertisement Hype but Bear spray is "supposed" to be more effective in close in encounters then a firearm.That being said I'm not real sure I'd bet my life on it.My only encounter was a black bear with cubs in Los Padres and I still felt under armed with the .308 BLR luckily we were both content with going separate ways.I'm sorry for the man's family.

[BigSky56]

Just for comparisons the bears in the bob marshall wilderness complex have been hunted in the past and get lead thrown at them on a regular basis by outfitters and hunters very few attacks as they associate people with a bullet wine and the smell of gunpowder where as the bears in glacier and yellowstone arent shot at. Animals arent dumb when dogs/wolves get in the stock and live thru the shooting the next time they come thru they slink around the fields. Most the guys I know throw lead at bears keeps em leary. danny

[FWiedner]

Don't know if it is just Advertisement Hype but Bear spray is "supposed" to be more effective in close in encounters then a firearm.That being said I'm not real sure I'd bet my life on it.My only encounter was a black bear with cubs in Los Padres and I still felt under armed with the .308 BLR luckily we were both content with going separate ways.I'm sorry for the man's family.

I'm not any kind of authority on bears, but I'd think that loud noises and getting painful holes poked in it would make an agressive bear a bit angrier if he didn't die immediately, where a blast of stinging goo in the face might be distracting.

Might be like getting sprayed by a skunk. Most humans and critters prefer to just try and get as far away as possible.

[bigbore442001]

Not to cause too much of a drift, relocation doesn't work too well. Here in good ole Massachusetts we have a pretty healthy black bear population. In fact it is probably over 3000 at this point and most live west of the Connecticut river. Well they are expanding their range and it isn't too uncommon for a bear to be found in a residential area. The state of Massachusetts has relocated bears but it is not unusual for the same bear to return to the same spot in a few days. I recall one bear near the eclectic city of Northampton being relocated a good thirty or forty miles away. Well in a few days it was back where it was originally found.

I suspect that if you relocated one of these big grizzlies, it would end up back at square one.

[Malamute]

Don't know if it is just Advertisement Hype but Bear spray is "supposed" to be more effective in close in encounters then a firearm.That being said I'm not real sure I'd bet my life on it.My only encounter was a black bear with cubs in Los Padres and I still felt under armed with the .308 BLR luckily we were both content with going separate ways.I'm sorry for the man's family.

I'm not any kind of authority on bears, but I'd think that loud noises and getting painful holes poked in it would make an agressive bear a bit angrier if he didn't die immediately, where a blast of stinging goo in the face might be distracting.

Might be like getting sprayed by a skunk. Most humans and critters prefer to just try and get as far away as possible.

No real guarantees about what a bear will do, or if the pepper spray will work on that particular bear. It simply doesnt affect some small percentage of bears, just like people. If you or your buddy are brought to your knees instantly by pepper, doesnt mean everyone is. A number of folks have reported how powerful it is, and how nodody could possibly stand up to it, but in truth, all they can say is how it affected them or who they used it on at that moment, it simply doesnt work the same on everybody. Just yesterday a retired LEO told me he wouldnt trust pepper for bears with the failures he's had with it on people. It does seem to work fairly well in many cases, but still I'm not going to keep it as my only resort either.

Many charges are false, they are warning or testing you, and perhaps building up their resolve. A negative experience may be very effective in that case, tho in a full charge/attack, anything may just infuriate them further unless it kills/breaks them down. It doesn't take a master marksman or a cannon to achieve that either, despite internet lore.

[getitdone1]

I just now tried to find it but seems I recall seeing a big guy pepper sprayed by a policeman on YouTube and it just made him madder.

By the time you can hit the bear in the eyes with the spray he's nearly on top of you and momentum would probably have it on you. With a fast moving bear hitting it's eyes could be very difficult. Hitting only one eye or getting a little in the bears eyes might do more harm than good. If wind is out of wrong direction you might receive more of the pepper spray than the bear. Or, at least receive too much of it.

My opinion, and not worth a lot: For humans it will nearly always work but for highly agitated and often fast moving bears, very questioable.

Don

[Batman1939]

My reading of the several accounts is that they turned a blind corner and encountered a sow and cubs and nature followed it's expected course.

Maybe they weren't making enough prudent noise, maybe they were slow on the draw with the Counter Assault (or didn't have any), or maybe they just ran into a mean sow.

I feel for the guy's wife, but I will shamefully admit that I laugh when I see videos of careless tourists being mauled when they run out of snacks while being friendly to the cute little bears.

I think you're on target with this post. The animal was defending young and it's likely that even a well-armed gunman might not have had a chance to get his hogleg unlimbered in time if he was intent on looking at his surroundings. I was surprised that a poll regarding this incident in the Great Falls Tribune showed a fairly large majority of respondents thought the Park Service did the "right thing" in letting the bear alone.

Wimpy sows can have cubs killed by adult males; natural selection has favored a strong aggressive maternal instinct.

Big Sky- It's a bit inappropriate to compare the Bob Marshall Wilderness with Yellowstone N.P. as they differ in so Many Ways: the least of which is the HUGE numbers of people visiting the Park. Many visitors are very naive regarding animal behavior. To Wit: how many visitors outside of Yellowstone try to put their kids on the backs of bull elk or similar stupid things. Surely you've seen films of some of the dumb things these touristy types do??

[getitdone1]

Although I realize it's not likely to happen, what if that same female bear kills another person--then, what will the Park Service people have to say? One successful defense of cubs from humans might make the bear more prone to do the same when given the opportunity.

I think you need to personalize this terrible happening and think how you'd feel if your wife or child had been killed by this bear. What THEN would you want for the bear?

Killing bears for sport is O.K. but not O.K. when they kill a human being. Hugh?

Don

[L_Kilkenny]

Many visitors are very naive regarding animal behavior.

People learn from getting bit, the boy just learned.

LK

[BAGTIC]

Animals' brains don't work the same as human brains. Much of the effectiveness of deterrents is psychological. We humans often psych outselves out when our fears and imaginations run wild such as when someone shot in the arm with a 25 ACP pistol dies of 'shock'. Likewise many people who have been very seriously injured in accidents or combat often don't realize it until the aftermath when the real threat has subsided.



Walking in grizzly country is dangerous but not as dangerous as attending a Dodgers or Yankees ball game. The risk is so slight that even the insurance companies ignore it. Yes it happens but people have also been killed by falling meteorites, etc. but we don't overreact. People are more likely to be killed in a traffic accident traveling to or from bear country.

No need to become paranoid.

[smokenrust]

It is so funny to see how glib you are with comments... until like gititdone1 comment, "I think you need to personalize this terrible happening and think how you'd feel if your wife or child had been killed by this bear. What THEN would you want for the bear?"
Only then does it become very personal, specially when you have no longer have that 'special one' gone from YOUR life forever, be it a drunk hitting them with his car or a bear mauling. No bear is worth a person's life...unless its your mother-in-law or the ex...(ya, you know who you are) Its how you percieve things. Don't care if that sow was 'protecting' her young... That guys life was worth more than that ugly sow was. Period.
Animals are animals... but you can also put the fear of man into some...sometimes... and other times there is no possible way other than making them dead to make them stop their attack.
Then of course you factor in the animal lovin greenie weenies that have no concept on how to live other than inside their imagination. Kinda like the comment of 'more people are hit by meteorites than by bear attacks'
I have found that the only good wolf was a DEAD wolf. They cause nothing but trouble for others...but try and convince a wolf lover of that.
Yellerstone got to many bear that them manging wardins can't manage now. They are higherd to mange and protect... and safety... where was osha? Well life goes on for some...

[gamekeeper]

If any of my family were foolhardy enough to wander around bear country unarmed and then got themselves mauled, I could hardly blame the bear for my kin's stupidity.
Yes I could demand revenge, so that particular bear could not hurt anyone else but it would only be a matter of time before someone else's kin encountered another bear doing what bears have always done, unlike dumb humans who for no other reason than "adventure" go walking in dangerous country without protection.

[Batman1939]

Why don't the rangers at that park get on the ball and always remove a female bear and it's cubs from high human traffic areas? By not doing so they are asking for things like this to happen.

Same with a bear at or near a kill in a high human traffic area.

In both of the above cases, this is when bears are most dangerous.

Don

With the kind of intensive management (read manipulation by man) that you advocate, Yellowstone NP would no longer even begin to approach a wilderness. I don't think the poor guy that got killed did anything wrong and I don't think the bear did either. I've spent considerable time on Kodiak Island with the big bears and we did take along a rifle in that situation; didn't want to see a bear chompin' down on my wife or son. Likewise, a fair amount of time in Africa with lions (and no firearms). However, when I travel in the parks down here (lower 48) I make decisions about where I go on foot based upon my willingness to "risk unpleasantness". And I'm willing to take responsibility for my decisions.

If I want a completely safe experience, at least insofar as the animals are concerned, I'll go to the zoo. Just my opinion about how we should "manage" wild places.

[tman]

Funny how 150 years ago a man would be considered a fool to be in the wilds, let alone bear country, WITHOUT a firearm or 3. Guess today that kind of logic can get you arrested.

[madman4570]

The bottom line is we all have choices.
To take a family into an area(that even of late is exploding with bear)without a gun(and I mean a gun of capable means is somewhat foolhardy.Most people when they see a enraged mother grizzly barring down on them while unarmed (RUN)its human nature.
Good chance if a shot was fired early on in the begining of that charge she might have not went through with it all the way.
If not,their would be one less bear around.