Winchester 94's

[Don McDowell]

Don,
I don't work for them, I deal with the industry at large.

Doing what for whom?

[DPris]

I'm a professional borrower.
Denis

[Don McDowell]

Cute, but not.

[Cimarron Red]

Denis,

To return briefly to your comment re: Winchester leverguns and SASS. I shoot at a fair number of cowby action matches, and I agree with you that 94's are not common. But the model 94 has never been accepted by CAS shooter, even sans rebounder and safety. The principal reason for this is that the 94 action is somewhat 'notchy,' having been designed for traditional rifle-length cartridges, not pistol cartridges.

The 1892 is another kettle of fish entirely. I personally shoot a Win./Miroku 92 with the offending rebounder removed. I have retained the safety because I was able to mount a short-base Marbles tang sight on the rifle. Were such a sight not available, I would have removed the safety as well. As it is, the safety is pushed to the off position and forgotten, unlike the safety on the Marlin 1894 which is receiver mounted and easily engaged accidentally, it takes a conscious act to engage the model 92 safety. I see quite a few 1892's and modern clones at SASS matches, including the tang safety/rebounding hammer Miroku's.

When I began shooting CAS the Marlin 1894 was the shooters' darling. Now it's the toggle-link actions, especially the 1873. I have considered getting a model 73 Italian clone, but I've resisted as I can shoot as fast with the 92, although, admittedly, the 92 is less tolerant of short stroking -- operator error.

I also shoot NRA lever action silhouettes with a recently-made 1892 rifle. I have removed the rebounding hammer mechanism, lightened the main spring, and removed the tang safety so that I could install an MVA soule tang sight. I love the rifle and shoot it well.

[El Chivo]

Well I think they'd be worth it if inside the parts were improved. Both my Winchesters are broken right now, one works only as a single shot and the other is stuck open. I've had to do lots of tweaking with both to get the mechanisms work, stop the misfires, etc.

BUT they shoot better than my Marlins, the barrels seem to be more accurate, less fussy, and I feel more confident shooting them as long as they don't jam. I was thinking about getting rid of them but will just deal with the inconveniences.

As for the new models I don't like the curved stock, but otherwise they look nice.

[tman]

Nice to see a 38-55 chambering. Maybe winchester will start producing ammo on a regular basis and at a reasonable price{YEAH,RIGHT } My .375 needs some plinking ammo

[Griff]

Red is right and self-depreciating! He's much better than, "shoot it well." More like extremely well.

Surprisingly, even tho' their lever throws are about equal, an unmodified '73 is much a smoother shooter than a mdl 94 in a pistol caliber. That falling link adds so much "hitch" in the 94s "get-along" as to physically inhibit the shooter from gaining speed. There's an adage among top CAS shooters that sez, "Slow is smooth, & smooth is FAST." The model 94's sloppy slot in the lever that the link/lever pin rides in is both the reason it feeds those .30-30 length cartridges so wel AND why it "ratchets" when operating. That ratchet is why you can't get "smooth" and are therefore unable to get fast!

Almost EVERY shooter that has bought one to participate in CAS matches has either traded it off, sold it, or relegated it to the safe. It's my opinion that reason so many folks bought a Winchester 94 for CAS is that when they read or were told "...using a leveraction rifle in a pistol caliber...", the Winchester 94 is so synomonous with "cowboy gun", that even otherwise knowledgeable gun folks didn't give other models a thought.

Back in 2006 I talked to the Project Manager @ USRA/Browning for the '94 and what Denis sez about their view of the market is a pretty accurate quote of what I was told then. At that time, he also said it wasn't clear whether a mdl '94 would see Miroku production. And if it didn't, it was going to remain "discontinued." And the reason the AE would be the ONLY variant is because the marketing types feel it MUST offered with the ability to mount a scope directly above the bore.

I will predict that you'll see more variants and other calibers in the coming years, but they'll be offered for that year only, so if you want it, better have yer pennies saved up & jump. Otherwise, if like me, you would like a new top eject 26" OBFM in .32-40, step up with a prepaid order for 10K units! But even then it will have the tang safety & rebounding hammer. Oh yeah, when you get the order confirmation and acceptance, I'll send you the money for one... maybe two!

[Don McDowell]

Griff you may be quite right about the future runs of 94's. IF a person stops and thinks about it for just a little bit you have to wonder about the viability of the levergun market. There's 7 million 94's out there now. Marlin is having trouble keeping their head above water, and the imports have never got into rifle cartridge length guns. Pedersoli has listed it's 45-70 in two catalogs now ,but I've not heard of them on the streets yet. Chiaapa has threatened an 86 but I've not seen them in stock at Davidsons yet, and the msrp listed there is about the same or higher than one that'll be carrying the Winchester roll mark on the barrel.
I for one am hoping to add the 38-55 94 to the bunch this fall, and would really like a 25-35 in the short rifle sometime in the next couple of years.

[DPris]

Red,
Agreed, I mentioned it in a SASS connection because it had been mentioned earlier in that connection, and because CAS tends to bring out what works best for the game that uses leverguns so much.
The 94 in handgun calibers has never caught on well for CAS, with or without AE, there are better choices.

I have schmoozed with many shooters at CAS matches, some of whom had started out trying to be competitive with 94s & found the guns were not particularly competitive.
As part of that, also talked with many guys who, like me, were Winchester owners & shooters from the pre-AE/Rebound days. CAS age demographics being what they are, there's a bunch of older guys who participate that have owned & used 94s over the years outside of competition. What other group of people can you find congregated in one place with extensive levergun knowledge & experience, old & new?
Lotta agreement that the "newer" features were not wanted.

The safety thing was another issue. When Winchester introduced the crossbolt, CAS shooters among others found that it tended to activate during routine handling. Very annoying when the timer starts on your stage & you discover your Winchester clicks instead of bangs on the first shot.
Same problem with hunters & others in the field.
This crossbolt thing is not exclusive to Winchester, also a nuisance with Marlins.

Even though I'd feel very comfortable in saying that most of us don't want a safety, it was at least something of a minor benefit when it was switched up top onto the tang.
There, it can get in the way of a tang sight, but few people mount a tang sight on a 94.
More of an annoyance on the 86 & 95.

That slider can, incidentally, be slipped into ON position when handling with heavy gloves. Not a huge liability, but one I don't need at all.
Personally, I don't want a safety to worry about, and I'm not alone.

A properly configured 92 is one of the greatest toting carbines ever built.
If you spend the extra time & money to correct the rebound system, a current model can be very nice.
Wouldn't mind having one myself.
But- to bring it into "proper" configuration, it does require more money.
Some of us are willing to spend a couple hundred on top of a thousand dollar purchase price, many are not, so they put up with it the way it comes.
Many with little real experience don't even know there's a better way to go.

Denis

[DPris]

Don,
I've had a Chiappa 86 in .45-70 here for about a month.
No threats involved.
Also no safety, no AE, and no rebounding hammer.
Denis

[Cimarron Red]

Denis,

I agree with your points. A minor clarification: when I mentioned the crossbolt safety I was referring to the Marlin. I had forgotten about the ones that Winchester once used on the Model 94.

You mentioned tang sights. I grew up with receiver sights, and became fond of tang sights when I first became aware of them. I realize they're not for everyone, but I'm amazed that many shooters are not aware of the optical principles involved in their use. And I have had SASS shooters ask me how I can shoot a gun equipped with one so fast. They believe that the shooter has to make a conscious effort to center the front sight in the aperture. Today, even if I were fond of open sights, at 64 my eyes have long since made aperture sights a must. But, truth to tell, I think you could shoot very well at SASS distances using just a front sight.

Griff,

Thanks for the shout-out. We're waiting for you to make a return visit to Golden. It would be a pleasure to have you back.

[DPris]

Red,
There's receiver sights & there's tang sights.
I had a nice Williams receiver sight on the Miroku 86 when I sold it.
Tang sights have always just been in the way for my hand, though, and I don't do any longrange stuff with my remaining Winchesters or Marlins.

I have apertures mounted on the bolts on three of the Marlins, I find they can be faster to acquire than bucks.

Denis

[Cimarron Red]

Denis,

I agree that tang sights and receiver sights are different animals, but the optical principle remains the same. And the closer to your eye you can mount the sight, within reason, the more accurate your shooting will be.

And I hear what you say about tang sights getting in the way, but I long ago adopted the method popularized by Harry Pope for Schuetzen shooting and used by many SASS shooters-- laying the thumb along the tang rather than wrapping it around.

[DPris]

I had to stick that receiver sight on the 86 because the safety was in the way of a tang sight, might have gone the other route on that rifle otherwise.
Yup, I'm fully agreeing with you on the aperture benefits, of either type.

Bubbles adapted early on in her CAS days to the parallel thumb, she had no levergun experience previously, but I have too many years of up & over the top.
Denis

[rangerider7]

Give me the vintage ones for that price.

[Old Time Hunter]

I'd give 'em $500 bucks USD today for a brand new '92 Japchester Trapper chambered in .44 Mag....rebounding hammer, cross bolt, and all.

[Grizzly Adams]

Sweeeeet! I've got to have one of these!!

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/ ... mid=534167

[dogngun]

I just saw a bunch of various used Win '94's, some actual old collectors and some newer shooters...the shooters under $300, and my bell is ringing...I might just put one on layaway...they had a Ranger version with the slightly longer barrel that looked interesting to me.


mark

[DPris]

The parts situation may become a problem on the domestic guns.
When I got word that New Haven was closing I immediately called the Browning/Winchester parts line to order two firing pins.
I was told then "We have enough parts to service Model 94s for ten years."
Apparently not so, they seem to be out of them.

The new ones from Japan are uncertain as far as interchangeability go.
Denis

[J Miller]

The parts situation may become a problem on the domestic guns.
When I got word that New Haven was closing I immediately called the Browning/Winchester parts line to order two firing pins.
I was told then "We have enough parts to service Model 94s for ten years."
Apparently not so, they seem to be out of them.

The new ones from Japan are uncertain as far as interchangeability go.
Denis

I suspected as much. I'll bet the big parts such as the links, bolts, levers and so on can be used on the domestic ones, but any screws or dimensionally critical parts will not.

More than likely we'll see outfits like Winchester Bob's take up the slack and start to produce those parts.

One thing is for sure .... I ain't getting rid of any of my spare parts.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

.

The new ones from Japan are uncertain as far as interchangeability go.
Denis

Have you measured these or is this just more speculation bs?

[Hobie]

.

The new ones from Japan are uncertain as far as interchangeability go.
Denis

Have you measured these or is this just more speculation bs?

Having not had an opportunity to measure them I'd say "uncertain" is an accurate description. It would be less accurate to say either that they will or won't. I don't think we know and for some reason I doubt that many spares were produced. HOWEVER, it seems to me that all other than the screws are very LIKELY to be interchangeable perhaps with some MINOR fitting.

[DPris]

Don,
"Just more speculation bs"?
I find it difficult to avoid taking your remarks personally when you continue to use verbiage like that. For some reason you seem to dislike just about everything I have to say on the subject.
Flat out, NO speculation, direct email quotes from October of 2009:
"Most parts are inch, but a few changed to metric."
"We do not recommend interchanging parts with old ones."
Denis

[Don McDowell]

Dpris, just have to wonder about someone that blasts into a thread with nothing good to say about the guns. Seems to think they have enough clout to tell Winchester they suckered a million people into buying guns they didn't want. Has the cajones to tell someone they've never met that that person bought 2 of those million rifles not because they wanted them.....
Yet when asked a simple question like just what do you do? Responds with a teenager answer like "I'm a professional borrower".
Could also get into the flat false information you put out on the 92 thread ,but didn't bother to straighten out until it was pointed out by others that is was false.
Now all of a sudden we're trashing parts availability, with speculation.....

[DPris]

Don,
I am a professional borrower, I test guns for a living.
I talk to all sorts of people in the industry, nationwide, and internationally. It's my job.

I have repeatedly said the current Miroku guns are very high quality, I have said repeatedly elsewhere they are more so than anything produced in this country under the Winchester brand in several years.
That's hardly "nothing good to say about the guns".

I have expressed my preferences against certain features on current guns, I'm entitled to those, whether they agree with yours or not, and others share 'em.

I have repeatedly said that other opinions are fine, and if others don't mind the features I dislike, they are perfectly welcome to buy a new Winchester & enjoy it.

It's not a matter of "clout", but I do have the ear of people at various firearms companies, and in that case input was solicited as the project was developing.

If you refuse to acknowledge that people will play the only game in town in buying unwanted features if that's the only game they can play, I think you're being unrealistic.
Your reasons for buying two of them are your reasons, valid for you but not binding on anybody else. I did not in any way say that YOU bought them because that was all you could get.
In my case, I did buy two, entirely because the AE & rebounding hammer WERE all I could get new at the time.

The "flat false info" on the 92 in the other thread was an error, on the 92 AE.
It was rightly brought to my attention, and I corrected it.
Errors occur, and you are no exception.


"We" are not "trashing parts availability, with speculation...."
What I'm doing is passing on information, what you are doing, I have no idea.

I've had several exchanges with the project guy on the re-intro of the 94, and I've passed on info pertinent to the subject of this thread.
If you choose to discard that, it's your choice.
If you choose to take offense at my opinions, also your choice.

I have expressed no sarcasm toward opinions contrary to my own here, recognized the rights of others to hold them, and that includes you & yours, which I've not attacked.
I've tried to contribute positively to the thread, not negatively.
Denis

[Don McDowell]

No sarcism... I do have a thing about credibility tho. You came into a thread I started with statements about input you gave on the "project" that to me requires a bit of credibility to validate. I find it hard to give someone credibility that doesn't even list a home state, and gives teenager answers to direct questions, all the while wearing his feelings on his sleeve. If you did know who/what you claim to know , then I still have to wonder how the bogus info about the 92 and 86 managed to jump off your key board onto the internet?
So for whom do you test those guns professionally and why?

Also do I understand it correctly you sold the winchesters you bought and replaced them with Marlins?

[Hobie]

Gentlemen, let's watch the tone here. There may be a misunderstanding but I don't think either of you INTEND any insult. Let's not look for one where none exists.

[DPris]

Don,
You may have been confusing me with somebody else who called the new guns junk, again- it certainly wasn't me.

Feelings on my sleeve? C'mon guy, this is a discussion forum & others have used harsher terms than me. I've at least walked you through most of my reasoning.

Anyway-
I put minimal info into registering on most forums I participate in, what difference does a home state make?

I'm in my 21st year as a gunwriter, as I said it's my job to deal with these people.
Just saw no point in making a point of that.

"Bogus" info on the 92 thread was this:
Hmmmm. New thread on Winchesters.
In the middle of three other things, but let's do a quick answer.
Tell OP the guns have been made for a while now in Japan.
Combine features into one sentence.
Back to other things running same time.

Later:
Ooops.
Goofed.
92 does not have AE.
Fix it.
On to other things running.

And there you have the process.

No, you do not understand correctly.
I currently own the '51 94 that was my Grandpa's. And two 16-inch AE 94s. And one 9422.
Did own one of the early re-intro 86 Extra Lites in .45-70, sold for the reasons I mentioned previously.

Along with five centerfire Marlins (four customized), and a .22 Cowboy version.

I'm a life-long Winchester fan, and I'll keep what I have, I just won't be buying any of the newer ones.

Also in inventory currently are a Rossi 92 carbine, a Chiappa mare's leg, a Rossi mare's leg, a Uberti 73, a Uberti 66, and two 94s that belong to my wife.

I've worked with over a dozen other leverguns in the past, professionally.
No stranger to them.

Denis

[Don McDowell]

Well there ya go. You could of answered this the first time
So are you a publisher writer or do you do freelance?

[RIHMFIRE]

Give me the vintage ones for that price.

+10 on that....

[DPris]

Like I said, just didn't want to make a point of it.
Contributing editor & freelance.
Denis

[Cimarron Red]

Denis,

I've read and enjoyed your pieces in Shoot! magazine, and I still lament its passing.

[DPris]

Red,
I actually lament its passing too, but I write for the other one (among others).
Denis

[Mike D.]

I do not prefer tang sights, but that's just me. They make gripping the rifle very uncomfortable and, IMO, are only good for target shooting. Sorry, but I'll take the old Lyman receiver sights any day, especially the 56 and 21/38. I have an old Lyman "D" code tang sight in the garage that was removed from a '92 .44 carbine that I bought several years ago. The little flip up standard carbine sight is preferable to me.

[Don McDowell]

Mike I wish we could get the 66 with the target knobs or the old Redfield.
The 21/38's are alright for hunting provided you keep an eye out it doesn't get self adjusted, but they lack the fine adjustment needed for good target work.
The soule/vernier type sights do work well for long range shooting , but you have to be very careful about how you torque the gun at the wrist or you'll throw your shots all over the place. Laying the thumb along side the sight in heavy recoiling longrange guns will get your shoulder pulped in short order and is not to good for longrange work.

[Streetstar]

Sweeeeet! I've got to have one of these!!

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/ ... mid=534167

Thats the one i have my eye on too, Grizz

[octagon]

Dpris: I too, have read your work and enjoyed it for years. I must say that the fairly recent piece you did on the Mares Leg in "Guns of the Old West" was as good a write up as I have seen in a long time. Read it 3-4 times. You bring Honor to your profession with top-shelf work like this.

[Poohgyrr]

A takedown Trapper 92 with gold bead, crescent buttstock.
MSRP about $1500........ Ouch.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/ ... amily=022C

[DPris]

Thanks, Oct.
Denis

[kaschi]

Here's my Winchester wish list.
I know they won't do away with beloved tang safety so I'll spare the ranting on that...but they could make these:
1) 92 SRC's and rifles with half round/half octagon bbls in 25-20 and 32-20
2) The same configurations for the 94 w/out angle eject in 25-35.

[Old Savage]

On the otherhand, having no attachment to the old functioning system and with half a dozen of the post 84s in three calbers and tang, cross bolt and no safety, all are accurate and none have failed to go bang. Make that four calibers.

[Malamute]

On the otherhand, having no attachment to the old functioning system and with half a dozen of the post 84s in three calbers and tang, cross bolt and no safety, all are accurate and none have failed to go bang. Make that four calibers.

I would be quite happy to have a couple AE's. I'm much more interested in being able to use scopes than in the past. I do have an attachement to the old operating systems, but have little prejudice to the new now. An AE with no tang or crossbolt safety would be fine with me. I could deal with a tang safety (as in, probably remove it), but would prefer one without. If it was a rebounder I would tune it up or make it a half cock type action.

My interest in scopes has me thinking about having clean, compact scope bases installed on the barrel of one or two older (pre-64 and pre-war) guns. AE's would be so much simpler. The one AE XTR I've handled much is slicker than any of my older guns.

[J Miller]

Well, another old thread brought back to the top. Enjoyable reading. Sad to say the original poster is no longer with the forum.

I wonder what caused his departure?

Joe

[tman]

If, I didn't already have a BB 94 444, I'd look closely at the 450 Marlin, would make a heck of a Kodiak bear gun , for those of us that limit our shots to 250 yards. But, I won't pay over $ 700 for it.

[Pete44ru]

Well, another old thread brought back to the top. Enjoyable reading. Sad to say the original poster is no longer with the forum.

I wonder what caused his departure ?

Maybe a little too much vitriol .............


.

[bonusmarple]

I have 3 of the mirokus. 2 94's and a '73. My experience has been good. They are worth the price to me, extra features and all.

[CowboyTutt]

Dang, I was hoping Don had returned here too. Dang. -Tutt

[Old Time Hunter]

Makes one wonder what changes have affected all those that have left

[Griff]

Makes one wonder what changes have affected all those that have left

Some folks need others to genuflect more than most here are willing. Others don't feel they have any more to learn... and others have taught themselves out.

[tman]

Makes one wonder what changes have affected all those that have left

Some folks need others to genuflect more than most here are willing. Others don't feel they have any more to learn... and others have taught themselves out.

Profound statement! +1