OT- The Two ALAMOs

[GANJIRO]

In preparation for my Texas trip I watched the new "The Alamo" the other night, very decent flick. I thought Billy Bob Thornton made a believable Davy Crockett, even as a kid The Duke somehow did not fit the role in my young mind at the time. I was wondering what you thought of it, and how it compares to the earlier version with John Wayne.
I hope I have time to at least snap a picture of The Alamo before I leave.

[Peter M. Eick]

Get there early in the morning before it becomes a zoo. It is hard to appreciate the history with all of the other activities which tend to collect down there on the weekends.

If you are into history its a neat place. I try to hit it every time I go over for meetings. Next you need to go to San Jacinto and Goliad and look them over also.

[gamekeeper]

I prefer the the last version of the "Alamo". Never did like the John Wayne version that much. I remember going to see the Disney "Davy Crocket" when I was a little kid, loved Kentucky long rifles ever since!

GANJIRO, I hope you get to visit the real Alamo, I'd love to see it!

[mescalero1]

Take a hankerchief, bandana, tissue,etc.
There is something in there, makes your eyes water.

[mescalero1]

Gamekeeper,
I spent 5 weeks in Hemel-Hempstead some time back.
Do you know where that is?

[Old No7]

I had a chance to see it when I was in town a few years ago... Shouldn't have been, I guess, but I was VERY surprised by all the blocks and blocks of stores built up around it... Duh!!! Guess I was lulled into thinking it was out in the middle of an open plain -- just like in the movies!

Anyway, after you hit the Alamo, walk over 2 to 3 blocks (sorry, forget which direction!) and hit the BUCKHORN SALOON for lunch! They have over 400+ mounted heads of game on the walls, with a great saloon -- and you can buy a cold beer at the bar and tour the Museum of the Texas Rangers while you sip.

All in all, it's a neat place and worth the stop -- and if I remember right, they will have some LEVERGUNS too!!!

Tight groups!

Old No7

ps: Got a CD of "Songs of the Gunfighters" by Marty Robbins there, as my Dad used to play the LP way back when we were kids. Good tunes on it, well, to me anyways... (Big Iron, Cool Water, El Paso, Billy the Kid, etc.)

[gamekeeper]

mescalero 1,

I don't know that area at all, it's a bit to close to London for my liking!

My son and I live near Winchester in Hampshire.

[rangerider7]

When you find a stopping place at the Buckhorn Saloon go to the Menger Hotel Bar next door to the Alamo. This is where Teddy Roosevelt signed up some of his rough-riders. They use to make the best drinks around. It has been a while.

[gamekeeper]

Old No7

ps: Got a CD of "Songs of the Gunfighters" by Marty Robbins there, as my Dad used to play the LP way back when we were kids. Good tunes on it, well, to me anyways... (Big Iron, Cool Water, El Paso, Billy the Kid, etc.)

In my car I have the CD Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs by Marty Robbins.

[Comal Forge]

You might also want to hit the rest of the Mission trail - they are full of history and not so commercialized as the Alamo. There is San Jose, Espada, Concepcion and Capistrano. I think Espada is especially interesting and has several restorations in place including a working blacksmith's forge that dates from the period.

Here is the blurb from the Parks dept:

The Mission Trail links the five 18th-century Spanish missions that laid the foundation for modern-day San Antonio. Each of the five missions on San Antonio's Mission Trail dates back to the days when Spain attempted to extend its reach in the New World by converting Native Americans to Catholicism. The most famous of the Mission Trail's missions is Mission San Antonio de Valero - best known as The Alamo. Site of a major battle during the Texas struggle for independence from Mexico, The Alamo was the first Catholic mission in San Antonio. Little of the original mission remains standing today. The other missions on the Mission Trail are Mission Concepción, Mission San José, Mission San Juan Capistrano and Mission San Francisco de la Espada. Another significant historical feature along the Mission Trail is the Espada Aqueduct and Dam, the irrigation system for the Mission San Francisco de la Espada.

The Mission Trail stretches nine miles along the San Antonio River, with The Alamo being the northernmost of the missions. Visitors may drive the entire San Antonio Mission Trail or else travel along a hike-and-bike trail. All of the missions are open to the public. Four of the missions on the Mission Trail are part of the San Antonio Missions National Historical Park, operated by the National Park Service. The Alamo is managed by the Daughters of the Republic of Texas.

[octagon]

Gamekeeper: You should try to find the little known "More Gunfighter Ballads" by Mart Robbins - it is a keeper too!

[jd45]

Ji, I've been around long enough to have seen all the versions, the Disney TV version with Fess Parker as DC hisself, included. I prefer the Billy Bob Thornton version, no disrespect to JW. Just seems more historically accurate, if you can say that about something that issues from Hollywood. I guess somtimes they take the trouble to come close. I tell you, when I heard Ozzie Osbourne upset on one of its walls, I wished I could've been there to give him a "history appreciation" lesson, if you know what I mean. Drink in what those patriots did there. jd45

[mescalero1]

Is that right? Ozzie Osborne urinated on the Alamo?

[Warhawk]

On the subject of the Alamo ... Does anyone know of any genealogy work on the defenders of the Alamo?

There is a defender listed with my surname from North Carolina, and my people were in VA and NC at that time.

[mescalero1]

If you visit, the defenders are listed.
I was surprised at the number of Spanish surenamed men

[RSY]

One of our greatest heroes didn't even speak English at the time:

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/onli ... /fse8.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Seguin

[Hobie]

I always thought that the fight at and story about the Alamo was an excellent example of the universality of a desire for freedom...

It IS a bit dusty in there. Oh, and shake the hand of the Ranger on duty there.

As to the movies... When I was young, Fess Parker and John Wayne were just fine as David Crockett. But, despite a couple of inaccuracies, I thought Billy Bob Thornton's version was the best and I really dislike Billy Bob.

[jd45]

mescalero1, if you Google Ozzie Osbourne at the Alamo, you'll find more than one reference to the incident, sad to say. jd45

[mescalero1]

JD45
NEVER did like his music,
would have been nice to be there with a good scoped rifle in .17 MachII
Old Johnny Harris always said " theres only one way to break a dog of suckin eggs "

[Charles]

Being a through and through Texan I have a couple of thoughts on the issue at hand.

1) The latest (Thornton) movie is by far the best, if you consider historical accuracy. It showed some of the Alamo hero's as real people with their flaws, but that is the way it was. The guys in the Alamo were a motley crew, many with checkered pasts. However, when the chips were down, they fought and died as true Texas heros. They deserve the respect accorded them. The Alamo is a testimony to what ordinary people can do under extraordinary circumstances.

2) By all means hoist one at the bar in the Menger Hotel, where TR held court. BTW...My GGranfather joined the 1st. Texas Cav. CSA on the front porch of the Menger. The Menger was built in 1859 and is just accross the street from the Alamo.

3) The best Mexican food in town is at Mi Tierra which is located in the old city market. One of the tram lines runs there from downtown. I forget the color of the tram, but you can find out.

4) The Alamo is under the care, custody and control of the Daughters of the Republic of Texas. This is a group of women who are descended from the citizens of of the Republic of Texas. They are deep into geneology and have extensive records on the men who died at the Alamo. My wife is a DRT and I below to the Sons of the Republic of Texas.

San Antonio is a very, very nice town. Be certain to go by Nagel's Gun Store on San Pedro..lots and lots of goodies there.

BTW...If you slip and fall, get rear ended or otherswise hurt by somebody's else's negligence in San Antonio, .be certain to give Scott T a call. A good lawyer can always use a good lawsuit

[buckeyeshooter]

The Duke version is by far the best. I tear up when the theme song starts at the end--- and I'm not even a Texan. I have been to the Alamo several times when I was in San Antonio for a convention. It speaks to me each time!

[zack coyote]

Try the movie "Thirteen Days to Glory". I saw it years ago, and I remember it to be a pretty good version.

[Rebel1972]

It's interesting to me that when I see a Texan online or in public Their pride is almost palatable.I am likewise proud that I am from the home state of David Crockett.I wish more Tennesseans were as proud as Texans about their home state.

[Charles]

Rebel... Many folks are put off by a Texan's "untoward" pride in Texas. I thank you for not being one of them.

Texas occupies a unique position among the states. We were once an independent country with our own war of independence, our own heros and our own battle sites. We existed for ten years as an indpendent Republic.

When we joined the Union, it was by a treaty of annexation and not the way others states joined. Texas alone, by virtue of the Treaty can leave the Union anytime the mood strikes. The sense of our identity as Texans did not go away when we joined the Union. It has been passed on to every generation as is disolved in our culture like salt in the sea.

No other state has this historical frameword. It is for this reason a Texan has a different way of looking at his State. We see our selves as Americans to be certain, but we are also Texans which is it's own state of mind. We have an allegiance to the U.S., but we also have an older allegiance to Texas. In a way we have dual citizenship.

Texans are not pompus or think we are better than anybody else. We have just come to this point in time by a different path and that makes us different in many way.

Tennessee is a wonderful state that is rich in history and tradition, but when it is all said and done, it is a state and never has existed as a free standing country. Therein is the difference found.

As time goes by, the attitude of latter day Texans will change. Folks move here with no connection to the history and founding of Texas. But there will also be some of us hard core Texas lurking about, ready to sing The Eyes of Texas at the drop of a hat.

[Rexster]

From a purely historic P.O.V., Billy Bob Thornton's version of the Alamo story is better than John Wayne's, and I say that as a native-born Texan who grew up regarding the John Wayne version as more akin to holy scripture than historical fiction. I wish the newer movie had done more with the San Jacinto portion of the story; they really dropped the ball on that part. I grew up just across the San Jacinto River from the battle site, and could have heard the shots had I been around 135 years earlier. Perhaps, I might have been at the battle itself! My ancestors were in the area.

Warhawk, let me know if you have any Scott in you; some of the ancestors on my mother's side came from NC during the land grant era. My mother's family has very deep roots in Texas.

I am not suprised many defenders at the Alamo were of Spanish/Mexican descent. Antonio Lopez de Santa Ana was not universally well-liked, and Mexico was a very young country, having just overthrown Spanish rule. Had the Texians been a bit stronger at the outset, at least one other neighboring Mexican state (Coahuila, perhaps?) might have thrown in with us. I am a little rusty on my Texas history at the moment, but when I retire, I want to really get into it again. Plus, check the Acadian (Cajun) and Louisiana French history on my father's side of the family.

[Rexster]

I think one reason Billy Bob Thornton's version of David Crockett upset so many Texans/Texians is because it showed him being executed after capture. I don't think this diminishes Davy Crocket at all; once you fired your one shot back in those days, at close range, fighting was hand-to-hand, and it is entirely possible to be overwhelmed and taken alive under those conditions.

[blackhawk44]

Rangerider7- While Teddy stayed at the Menger and signed up a few there, the majority of the Rough Riders were signed up under the "Roosevelt" Oak on Roosevelt Avenue (on the present Mission Trail). What is now the Mission Golf Course across the street from there was a county park during Teddy's stay and was the site of the drilling and training of the Rough Riders. Other sights around town are the Quadrangle at Fort Sam Houston where Geronimo was held after his capture, with its free roaming whitetails. Just down the street (don't know if its marked) was the residence where Ike and Mamie lived while stationed here. When its open, Fort Sam is also home to the Museum of Military Medicine and its parade ground was site of the first airplane flight in US military history.

Back downtown is also the Spanish Governor's Palace, La Villita and Riverwalk (a new addition).

A very utopian area with history everywhere what with the original Spanish and Mexican influences since 1718, the German communities just north of town, the Polish settlements just to the southeast and the Alsatians just to the west.

As said, when going into the Alamo, get that hat off and keep your hanky handy. Something always seems to bother your eyes, no matter how many times you've been there.

Charles, thank you and well said.

[Steelbanger]

My son & myself were guests of Ranch Dog last year and visited the Presidio La Bahía at Goliad. The fort was built in the mid 1700's and the execution of Col. Fannin and his men on Santa Anna's order became a rallying point for the entire country to get behind Texas and its fight for independence. Being a Yankee I had never heard of the Presidio but now realize that its place in Texas history is as significant as the Alamo, if not more so.