Rare Winchester 1886

[kdsnodgrass]

At a recent gunshow a pretty Winchester 1886 walked in the door. Case hardened receiver, with pretty good colors, octagon barrel with exactly 2 dings that you need to run your fingernail along the rib to find, 2 small dings in the butt-stock. Overall, pretty close to a museum piece. What made it rare? .38-70. Only 830 made, and I think most of them were blued receivers.

I have searched A LOT and can only find one place with something similar to try to set a value for this old gun.

http://www.thewinchestergrove.com/1886/index.htm

Blued receiver and a takedown model.

Anyone got another source? I know I made money on the deal, just wondering how much.

The new guy...

[Ysabel Kid]

Welcome aboard! Can't help you on your question, but someone here should be able to. Winnies in that class are WAY beyond my humble collecting means!

[Batman1939]

Welcome to the forum. Your site shows some very nice collector pieces. Look to be out of my price range for shooters though.

[CEMENTHEAD]

I would've liked to see that one....sounds like a beauty. Don't have a clue on value though .......Kirk or Mike will be along shortly to help.

By the way.....Welcome

Thanks, Tom

[Mich Hunter]

I have only seen one 1886 win in 38-70. A military buddy has one that came off the family ranch in Montana. The buttstock had a small black mark on it from a cabine fire long ago, but other than that it was nice. He also had a few boxes of factory ammo for it.

[Mike D.]

Original .38-70 WCF 1886s bring at least $7500 in any decent condition(60%+). The first rifle of that caliber was built at around serial number 18000 and the second close to 85000, an indication of the caliber's unpopularity. Actually, Don's numbers are somewhat low for the number of .38-70 1886s accounted for. There were 1167 guns made in that caliber; it was the 40-70 WCF that is the scarcest caliber of the 1886 Winchesters. 862 were manufactured in .40-70, beginning in 1894 at near serial number 85000, where the second gun in your caliber was made. Both the .38-70 and 40-70 were dropped by 1911, along with all of the other calibers except the .33 WCF, 45-70, 45-90 WCF and .50-110 EX. The .45-90 and .50-110 hung on until 1919, and the other two lasted until the last '86 was sent to the warehouse in 1935. There remains some aggressive discussion over how many 1886 Winchesters were manufactured. The long accepted number is 159,995, but there are claims of guns in existence that carry numbers above 160,000. 195947, a .33 WCF TD is in my small collection, along with the same numbered 195924.

[KirkD]

MikeD has a lot better current knowledge on '86s than I do. I haven't bought one for a few years now and am out of touch with the market.

[buckeyeshooter]

Mike is as good as it gets on 1886 info!

[Mike D.]

I appreciate the comments fellers, but I am not by any means an expert on the 1886. I do have quite a collection of obscure information and "tidbits" concerning the model, probably because of my admiration for the excellent design, and one that is IMO J.M. Browning's crowning achievement. It's classic lines and immense strength are legendary. In it's Extra Lightweight configuration it is a superb, fast handling hunting rifle.

[Sixgun]

Don Grove is a highway robber with his guns prices about 40% more than what they are worth. When I see him at the better shows, his guns have 2 pounds of shiney grease slopped all over 'em.

While the 38-70 sure was not a popular cartridge with low production, it does not command a considerable premium over a 45-70, sometimes on an equal basis

The 50-100-450 is the one to get.---

In the world of Winchesters & Colts, guns priced between $2,000 and $15,000 have taken a big hit with prices down a good 20%. There's plenty of money for the lower priced guns and there's always a mess of guys with the big bucks competing for the iron framed Henry's, first model deluxe 73's, or an Ainsworth cartouched Colt SAA

Don't know what you paid for it but as you know, its condition, condition, condition, along with originality. Detailed pics of the important items need to be posted for a fair appraisal.

Funny thing as you mentioned "museum quality". I was approached this morning and asked if I wanted a "museum quality" , "possibly unfired" 2nd model deluxe half oct. Model 1873 for $8,000. As I knew the person offering it KNEW his Winchesters, I asked, "Whats wrong with it?" and did not even bother to ask him to look at it. Just another lying dealer trying to sucker someone out of 8 g's for a restored gun as a Winchester like that will bring $30,000 or more--------------------------------Sixgun

[Mike D.]

I purposely refrained from commenting about Grove's "imaginative pricing" and descriptive excesses, but since Sixgun brought it up, I agree completely with his call. I have had some serious discussions with both him and his wife over various "issues", and have been given the "you have no idea what you are talking about" dismissal. Sadly, they represent about 50% of the "professional" Winchester dealers and 90% of the part timers. Ignorance, and down right thievery, abounds in the world of Winchester collecting, and the gun world in general. Of course, that's no news to us who have been observant of the goings on for more than a few years. I'm proud to say that my purchases from like individuals is ZERO.

[Sixgun]

Ignorance, and down right thievery, abounds in the world of Winchester collecting.

Mike,
Knowledge is power and most folks tend to trust the bigger names in the Winchester & Colt game, with 95% of these folks not having the knowledge.

About two months ago, this guy showed me a 4 digit Colt SAA civilian model. He bought this gun from a semi-big name Colt dealer 5 years earlier. This gun locked up as tight as a new one, had a so-so bore, mismatched grips, so-so lettering, all in a bright shiney nickel finish---------with no letter. Anyway, this purchaser wanted my opinion and I flat out told him the gun was a real deal civilian model but was a professionally refinished well used Colt. The dealer told him the gun was all original. Price? 10g's--------ouch! maybe a third of that------------buyer beware---------Sixgun

[kdsnodgrass]

First off, I would like to thank everyone for the comments. I had a computer "issue" (ahem) and after the rebuild I lost track of this website. (backups, backups, backups!) Anyway...

Original .38-70 WCF 1886s bring at least $7500 in any decent condition(60%+).

Oh, it is far better than 60%. I'm not an appraiser, just a collector, but I would put it at 90% ++, maybe even 95% +. Blue on the barrel is almost perfect, two very minor dings on the ribs of the octagon barrel that you have to use your finger nail to find, two small dings in the wood of the buttstock. Case colors are somewhat faded, but still easily seen in all "normal" lighting. The hammer and lever are not the best, but maybe they never look that good. Are they supposed to be case colored also? If so, is the coloring supposed to be as "obvious" as the receiver?

The first rifle of that caliber was built at around serial number 18000 and the second close to 85000, an indication of the caliber's unpopularity. Actually, Don's numbers are somewhat low for the number of .38-70 1886s accounted for. There were 1167 guns made in that caliber; it was the 40-70 WCF that is the scarcest caliber of the 1886 Winchesters. 862 were manufactured in .40-70, beginning in 1894 at near serial number 85000, where the second gun in your caliber was made. Both the .38-70 and 40-70 were dropped

OK. Where did you get that info? Every place I have found numbers have said 830 of the .38-70 including Blue Book and several Winchester oriented websites. Always looking for the most accurate info I can find...

by 1911, along with all of the other calibers except the .33 WCF, 45-70, 45-90 WCF and .50-110 EX. The .45-90 and .50-110 hung on until 1919, and the other two lasted until the last '86 was sent to the warehouse in 1935. There remains some aggressive discussion over how many 1886 Winchesters were manufactured. The long accepted number is 159,995, but there are claims of guns in existence that carry numbers above 160,000. 195947, a .33 WCF TD is in my small collection, along with the same numbered 195924.

Yes, it appears their record keeping wasn't stellar.

[kdsnodgrass]

Don Grove is a highway robber with his guns prices about 40% more than what they are worth. When I see him at the better shows, his guns have 2 pounds of shiney grease slopped all over 'em.

Thanks for the info. I will ignore him and his website.

Any comments on Goodman's Guns in Bozeman, MT? He carries some quite nice stuff...

While the 38-70 sure was not a popular cartridge with low production, it does not command a considerable premium over a 45-70, sometimes on an equal basis

I guess that is what I was really after. What differential in prices would there be for an extremely rare caliber compared to a common one.

The 50-100-450 is the one to get.

Yeah, well, a 50-100-450 didn't walk into the gunshow.

In the world of Winchesters & Colts, guns priced between $2,000 and $15,000 have taken a big hit with prices down a good 20%. There's plenty of money for the lower priced guns and there's always a mess of guys with the big bucks competing for the iron framed Henry's, first model deluxe 73's, or an Ainsworth cartouched Colt SAA

Useful information. I can understand the mid-price range taking a hit. Unfortunately, most of mine are right there, between $3K and $12K.

Don't know what you paid for it but as you know, its condition, condition, condition, along with originality. Detailed pics of the important items need to be posted for a fair appraisal.

It's purty! Maybe I'll take some pics and post them.

[71fan]

What a nice find...congrats.

That condition in that caliber, I'd expect MikeD is prety close these days, although two or three years ago it may have gone north of $10,000.

I would like to mention one thing, of little consequence...
I would bet most of the 38-70s were cased, not blued, because the majority would have been made in the first year or two after introduction (1894 to 1895), which was well before the receivers went to blue as standard. All takedowns were blued from the start of the takedowns (1894) through the end of production, unless special ordered as cased, which is very rare in a TD. Exptrapolating from the percentages of other calibers, there were probably only about 100 takedowns made in 38-70.

Do we get to find out what you paid?

[Hobie]

Whatever you paid I'm glad this was resurrected because I was in AK when first posted and I missed it. Great stuff in here.

[Mike D.]

I spoke with Jan last month at the Reno show. Due to their "unusual" pricing parameters not anything moved that I am aware of. They do deal in high end guns and the "grease" on them is Old West Snake Oil, a fine protector for both wood and metal. Folks oily fingers can wreak havoc on the old rust blued metal surfaces, so I carry white cotton gloves and use them when handling these delicate works of art. None of my well used rifles even comes near to the condition of many of the guns at Reno. Out west, the prices are stabilized for the moment, but only those priced reasonably left the tables. I have a chance to purchase a high condition late 1920s .38-55 carbine with NS barrel and after Christmas it might be mine, IF everything works out.

[jlchucker]

I saw one and handled it. The old town clerk in my home town had died, and they were auctioning off her house, as well as the house of her father, who had been the previous clerk. I was a sophomore in high school at the time. Nobody had been in the father's house for decades, and the auction attracted a lot of attention. While wandering through the place, I happened to look in a bedroom closet, and found a levergun. At the time, to me levergun meant 30-30, and I was a kid looking for a deer rifle. This particular gun, an octagon-barreled rifle with a blue receiver, looked like a find. This was around 1960, and collectors at that time were few and far between. I was excited, and willing to bid as much as $20 of hard-earned money on it--up until I saw the stamping that showed the caliber. I had never heard of a 38-70, and knew darn well that none of the local stores carried that kind of ammo. As I recall, the winning bid was $20 even, but not my $20. How that long-dead town clerk acquired that rifle is anyone's guess, since he died in 1924, and the gun was pristine as I recall. He was remembered for lots of things, but not his hunting prowress. I remember picking that gun up back then, and have never seen another, anywhere, in that caliber. I've often wondered who won that bid, and where that rifle is today.

[kdsnodgrass]

What a nice find...congrats.

Thank you...

That condition in that caliber, I'd expect MikeD is prety close these days, although two or three years ago it may have gone north of $10,000.

According to the 2008 Blue Book a .45-70 in similar configuration and condition was bit higher than that. Depending on condition of course.

I would like to mention one thing, of little consequence...
I would bet most of the 38-70s were cased, not blued, because the majority would have been made in the first year or two after introduction (1894 to 1895), which was well before the receivers went to blue as standard. All takedowns were blued from the start of the takedowns (1894) through the end of production, unless special ordered as cased, which is very rare in a TD. Exptrapolating from the percentages of other calibers, there were probably only about 100 takedowns made in 38-70.

I checked some website that claims to have Winchester dates of manufacture by SN and it came back 1894. From what I have read case colors were "standard" on '86s until '95.

Do we get to find out what you paid?

About 2/3 of the 2008 Blue Book for a .45-70 in 90%. The seller was happy. No, the seller was FREAKIN' THRILLED! He wasn't sure that old gun was worth much. He told me he bought it about 50 years earlier for $50. Nice rate of return...

[kdsnodgrass]

They do deal in high end guns and the "grease" on them is Old West Snake Oil, a fine protector for both wood and metal.

I bought a bottle of that from a dealer out of Denver. Can't remember his name now. Nice guy. I think his shop is on the 1500 block of Broadway. (I'm bad with names, but good with addresses and numbers. )

I have a chance to purchase a high condition late 1920s .38-55 carbine with NS barrel and after Christmas it might be mine, IF everything works out.

Good luck. What does "NS" stand for? Don't remember that abbreviation and can't come up with anything reasonable. But, my grey matter seems to be leaching into my hair these days, so...

[Cimarron Red]

kdsnodgrass,

NS is nickle steel, tougher than ordnance steel and therefore capable of withstanding higher pressures,

[Mike D.]

Red is spot on. Nickel Steel barrels were designed for the use of high pressure smokeless powder cartridges. The standard smokeless powder cartridges of the early 20th C were loaded to the same relative pressures of the black powder ones of the same caliber, so were safe in the older non Nickel Steel rifles. The HV loads were a different story in many cases and were not recommended for the soft Bessemer Steel barrels. IMO, the best Winchesters to buy are the ones that have NS barrels, especially the BP cartridge calibers.

[Sixgun]

Any comments on Goodman's Guns in Bozeman, MT? He carries some quite nice stuff...

I guess that is what I was really after. What differential in prices would there be for an extremely rare caliber compared to a common one.

Ain't that somethin'? This post is back in business!

Never dealt with Goodman's guns--In fact, I never bought any guns that I did not put my hands on first. Besides, there's plenty around here. Just tonight I turned down a 95% 1895 in 35 Winchester. Beautiful gun with hardly any use at all but..........its got a recoil pad 2 g's out the door. If anyone wants it, its at my buddy's gunshop, Targetmaster--info below. Its a good buy if you want to play with the wood.

As far as "premium" calibers go in the '86, the 50-100-450 brings the most, followed by the 50-110-300. These two calibers bring mucho more than anything else, probably 100% or more. The 38-70 and the 40-70 really don't bring a lot more than the 45-70 or 45-90, sometimes less with the 38-70. The 40-65 is so-so while the 38-56 and the .33 are the "bottom of the barrel" unless they have special features like engraving or in the deluxe version. (As any knowledgable 1886 fans know, there are no "bottom of the barrel 1886's )------------------------Sixgun

[Bridger]

I'd like to step up to help out fellow levergunners and offer $200 a piece for all those bottom of the barrel 1886s.

[cowboykell]

Here in the Dakotas the 38-70 and 40-70 go for a lot more than the 45 cals. I have a few rifles from Bill Goodman but have sent half of them back. He tends to overlook some flaws. Most of his guns have "fine aged blue" whatever the heck that means. He does give a 3 dayer with no poblems.