Tell me about the .38-40 WCF

[Old Shatterhand]

Yesterday I spoke in the telephone with a guy, who had a mod 1892 in .38-40WCF. After the call, I googled and binged the cartridge but found not much worth reading about it. Would you like to tell me some words about it?

Regards,

Pete

[OldWin]

This is probably my favorite levergun cartridge. I have a much easier time getting accuracy from it than 44-40. It may be just my experience but I have several guns in each caliber and find the 38's have more consistent barrels and chambers. I like 8.0 grains of Unique behind the old Lyman 401043 bullet. Some have trouble with this bullet pushing in but I never have. It has no crimp groove as it was the old black powder bullet. It is a joy to shoot and quite accurate.

[Gobblerforge]

Brought out in about 1880. Slightly smaller than the 44 but about as fast. Seams to kill everything that gets shot in the head with it. Recoil is soft and shooting is enjoyable.
My favorite cartridge.
Gobbler

[cshold]

Good 38-40 info.

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt3840.htm

[Huntermb]

I agree with you guys, the 38-40 is my favourite small cartridge too. Very accurate and consistent and like you said oldwin, it seems more so than the 44-40. My 44-40 hardly ever gets picked up, the 38wcf gets grabbed instead. My killed a black bear about 10 years ago and did so without issue. I love this cartridge.

[pwl44m]

Old Shatterhand, I just had to comment= I love that Fox sneaking through Your thread.

[earlmck]

I acquired my 38-40 about 20 years ago. At that time 38-40 headstamped brass was not readily available like it is now, but I got a really good deal on 500 44-40's. They were real bad to wrinkle the necks when sized down to 38 (actually .40 as we know) until I figured out that you need to iron out the slightest little dent in the 44-40 neck before running in the 38 die. (I just grab up a handy '06 case or similar and, holding the 44 case in one hand and the '06 case in the other, iron out visible dents). After that discovery I seldom lost a case. So if you lucky 38-40 owners get an extra good deal on 44-40 brass, don't pass it up! Use my little trick and you'll seldom lose a case in the resizing.

And yes, I realize the possible downside to having wrongly headstamped brass, but I don't own a 44-40 so never even have to be careful. When I acquire a 44-40 I'll probably just color-code the cartridge boxes, since I have these 400+ 38-40's that are headstamped 44-40.

[KirkD]

I have an original Winchester Model 1873 in 38 W.C.F., also known as 38-40. It is one of my favourite cartridges. These things are a matter of personal preference, but I prefer the 38-40 over the 44-40, although I do have old Winchesters chambered in both. It is good for deer out to 100 yards. The Model 1892 can be loaded up to the original 'high velocity' level.

[RIHMFIRE]

The guys have pretty much covered it!
38-40 is my favorite...I have a 1926 model 92 winchester rifle
in this caliber and it is probably my most accurate lever gun...
octagon barrel...semi buckhorn sights....
no kick at all....and its shoots easily better than 1" groups at 50 yards...
and thats with my bad eyes...
Reloading is a little tough....and you will have to reload this round....
too darn expensive to buy....
you just have to keep the shells clean
and lubed when running them through the dies....
check and slug the bore..... dia. is .401
I use starline brass.....good stuff...

I hope to get one in the saddle ring carbine version one day....

[765x53]

Just speculation on my part, I wonder if Winchester developed it for the South American market, to be sold as a 10mm? Maybe someone here knows.

[Don McDowell]

I don't have any experience with it in a rifle, but it's a dang fine handgun round and when loaded to the levels it was meant to be it's very easy to see why it was so popular in the sidearm market.

[Kansas Ed]

I have 4 of them now. Two '73's, one '92, and one SAA. Also my favorite caliber. I've shot mule deer to 130 paces and whitetail up close, with the '92. I'd planned to use one of the '73's this year, but my back kept me from going out. Starline brass is also my favorite. Remington brass is too thin for my dies to keep a tight crimp...even with the FCD die. But the thicker Starline works well. Really a neat little cartridge, and with the popularity of the .40 Caliber handguns bullets are easy to get now...but you need to add a cannelure to them with a cannelure tool, or go the FCD route.

Ed

[OldWin]

I don't have any handgun experience with it but have 7 rifles. Winchester 92's, 73's in rifle and carbine and a Marlin 89 rifle. All the books say this cartridge wasn't very popular. If I recall Madis said it was 1:10 with the 44WCF. That doesn't seem to hold true here in Maine as for me they are way more common than 44.

[jlchucker]

I don't have any handgun experience with it but have 7 rifles. Winchester 92's, 73's in rifle and carbine and a Marlin 89 rifle. All the books say this cartridge wasn't very popular. If I recall Madis said it was 1:10 with the 44WCF. That doesn't seem to hold true here in Maine as for me they are way more common than 44.

Back when I was a kid growing up in VT in the 1950's, hand-me-down family guns were what me and my contemporaries started out on. This was the heyday of the 30-30, with some other stuff turning up among my buddies. A 25-20 here and there (one that is particularly memorable was a Savage 23 that my father won in a raffle), as well as a couple of 38-40's. I don't ever recall anyone mentioning a 44-40 though. A couple of my buddies, around the time I was in the 6th grade (mid-1950's), managed to get a pretty good-size buck while woods-hunting with 38-40's. What I don't recall is whether they were using '92's or '73's. An adult uncle of my younger brother's classmate had a '92 carbine in 38-40 as his one and only deer rifle. I think you're right. The 38-40 may have been much more popular than the 44 in the northern New England area. Why exactly is anyone's guess. My sense is, at least in the rural area that I grew up in (and perhaps in Maine as well) is that nearly everyone owned a gun, all the locals hunted, but nobody really owned the abundance of models and calibers that gun people do nowadays. Back in the day, one deer rifle, often handed down, was pretty much it.

[cshold]

I don't have any handgun experience with it but have 7 rifles. Winchester 92's, 73's in rifle and carbine and a Marlin 89 rifle. All the books say this cartridge wasn't very popular. If I recall Madis said it was 1:10 with the 44WCF. That doesn't seem to hold true here in Maine as for me they are way more common than 44.

Back when I was a kid growing up in VT in the 1950's, hand-me-down family guns were what me and my contemporaries started out on. This was the heyday of the 30-30, with some other stuff turning up among my buddies. A 25-20 here and there (one that is particularly memorable was a Savage 23 that my father won in a raffle), as well as a couple of 38-40's. I don't ever recall anyone mentioning a 44-40 though. A couple of my buddies, around the time I was in the 6th grade (mid-1950's), managed to get a pretty good-size buck while woods-hunting with 38-40's. What I don't recall is whether they were using '92's or '73's. An adult uncle of my younger brother's classmate had a '92 carbine in 38-40 as his one and only deer rifle. I think you're right. The 38-40 may have been much more popular than the 44 in the northern New England area. Why exactly is anyone's guess. My sense is, at least in the rural area that I grew up in (and perhaps in Maine as well) is that nearly everyone owned a gun, all the locals hunted, but nobody really owned the abundance of models and calibers that gun people do nowadays. Back in the day, one deer rifle, often handed down, was pretty much it.

Very true, and that one gun put food on the table with hardware store bought ammo.

[Don McDowell]

And that one box of store bought ammo lasted several years...

[kimwcook]

And that one box of store bought ammo lasted several years...

Yep, one shot, one critter.

[jlchucker]

And that one box of store bought ammo lasted several years...

Yep, one shot, one critter.

It had to be that way, particularly with ammo like 38-40, that came 50 to the box. Wages were low, and that box of ammo was expensive, not to be wasted. My home village had two stores--one sold some groceries, and ammo. The other, with a for-real layout dating back to 1910 or so, sold everything including dry goods and hardware, BUT no beer, wine, or fresh meat. In the latter store, the owner would rent out guns for deer season, from his office in the back. If someone rented a shotgun, they could buy ammo (buckshot or slug) by the single round at a time. Ammo for rounds like 38-40 had to have been on those shelves for 30 or 40 years. Winchester or Remington (Western or Peters too). It all went reliably "boom" though. After somebody bought a box, it did indeed last several years, and by the time the box was emptied, the cartridges contained therein were not shiny brass, but dark green. These days, around Christmas, I get nostalgic for those old times. Nice to know it was like that in other places around the country like where Kimwcook and Don McDowell live as well.

[OldWin]

I think thats very true about the rifles being handed down. Also people tended to buy what works for others they know. Haha! thats true about the ammo, I remember it well. I've noticed this same trend with the 38-55 in this locality.

[jlchucker]

I think thats very true about the rifles being handed down. Also people tended to buy what works for others they know. Haha! thats true about the ammo, I remember it well. I've noticed this same trend with the 38-55 in this locality.

Several old timers used 38-55's around my parts too, OldWin. In my town they were usually old World War I vets that tended to hunt alone, walking up steep hillsides where most folks didn't go. They were generally known for two things: The first was they wasted more ammo--choosing to go down to the local sand pit and put up a bottle or can before opening day. They'd then fire a shot (offhand) to see if the gun was still "on", before starting their hunting season. The second thing is, they'd get some pretty big deer, and once in a while a bear, with those 38-55's they carried (Mostly old Winnie carbines). I figure that they did all that target practice because 38-55 ammo came 20 to the box, and was cheaper requiring an outlay of 5 or 6 dollars a box as opposed to 15. Even still, their ammo (a box every 10 years or so at the general store) was usually a bit green with age, right off the shelf. Those old boys hunted high and alone, on foot-- before the days of ATV's, and would drag their deer out with the aid of a length of rope that they always carried with them. I wonder what their generation would think of today's hunting and all of the paraphernalia that goes with it? One thing for sure--they never asked anyone if a 38-40 or 38-55 was "enough gun". From the pic of his outfit, rifle and deer, though, it looks like our friend Gobbler would fit right in with that generation, and that's meant as high praise, not criticism.

[Gobblerforge]

I think thats very true about the rifles being handed down. Also people tended to buy what works for others they know. Haha! thats true about the ammo, I remember it well. I've noticed this same trend with the 38-55 in this locality.

Several old timers used 38-55's around my parts too, OldWin. In my town they were usually old World War I vets that tended to hunt alone, walking up steep hillsides where most folks didn't go. They were generally known for two things: The first was they wasted more ammo--choosing to go down to the local sand pit and put up a bottle or can before opening day. They'd then fire a shot (offhand) to see if the gun was still "on", before starting their hunting season. The second thing is, they'd get some pretty big deer, and once in a while a bear, with those 38-55's they carried (Mostly old Winnie carbines). I figure that they did all that target practice because 38-55 ammo came 20 to the box, and was cheaper requiring an outlay of 5 or 6 dollars a box as opposed to 15. Even still, their ammo (a box every 10 years or so at the general store) was usually a bit green with age, right off the shelf. Those old boys hunted high and alone, on foot-- before the days of ATV's, and would drag their deer out with the aid of a length of rope that they always carried with them. I wonder what their generation would think of today's hunting and all of the paraphernalia that goes with it? One thing for sure--they never asked anyone if a 38-40 or 38-55 was "enough gun". From the pic of his outfit, rifle and deer, though, it looks like our friend Gobbler would fit right in with that generation, and that's meant as high praise, not criticism.

Thanks Chucker.

[cshold]

I think thats very true about the rifles being handed down. Also people tended to buy what works for others they know. Haha! thats true about the ammo, I remember it well. I've noticed this same trend with the 38-55 in this locality.

Several old timers used 38-55's around my parts too, OldWin. In my town they were usually old World War I vets that tended to hunt alone, walking up steep hillsides where most folks didn't go. They were generally known for two things: The first was they wasted more ammo--choosing to go down to the local sand pit and put up a bottle or can before opening day. They'd then fire a shot (offhand) to see if the gun was still "on", before starting their hunting season. The second thing is, they'd get some pretty big deer, and once in a while a bear, with those 38-55's they carried (Mostly old Winnie carbines). I figure that they did all that target practice because 38-55 ammo came 20 to the box, and was cheaper requiring an outlay of 5 or 6 dollars a box as opposed to 15. Even still, their ammo (a box every 10 years or so at the general store) was usually a bit green with age, right off the shelf. Those old boys hunted high and alone, on foot-- before the days of ATV's, and would drag their deer out with the aid of a length of rope that they always carried with them. I wonder what their generation would think of today's hunting and all of the paraphernalia that goes with it? One thing for sure--they never asked anyone if a 38-40 or 38-55 was "enough gun". From the pic of his outfit, rifle and deer, though, it looks like our friend Gobbler would fit right in with that generation, and that's meant as high praise, not criticism.

Isn’t that the truth…
the woods in and around the area I hunt are polluted with tree stands.
Then there’s all of those stealthy high tech field/tree cameras out there
now a days. I’m half afraid to take a leak or something else in the woods
anymore for fear of showing up on youtube titled hunter taking dump in woods.

[OldWin]

jlchucker,

You're right, thats a good pic! I prefer this hunting style myself. We have a camp in a fairly remote area. I don't own an ATV, just a jeep. I wear wool, hunt with my old Winchesters in these old calibers, and seldom use a stand. Haha! I even carry the coil of rope in my pocket! The time of this hunting style is growing short I'm afraid. I ran into a 20 ish year old kid at the range last week that shot a moose last year with his granddads 38-55. It made my whole day!

[OldWin]

This was taken at camp November 09. I'm holding a 1/2 magazine 94SRC in 38-55. I could certainly hunt country with more deer but I've decided I like the quiet and lack of people better. I've taken good bucks, but very few of them.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Just speculation on my part, I wonder if Winchester developed it for the South American market, to be sold as a 10mm? Maybe someone here knows.

I don't know about the South American market but I do know that the 38-40 was a popular Law enforcement round here. It was faster flatter shooting than the 44-40. Many Prison systems had them for picket (guard tower) guns. They were considered good man stoppers.

According to the person I got this one from it came out of the Huntsville prison. His family works for the TDC there at Huntville. I was told they were plated to be kept in the un-air conditioned pickets. I have also been told the plated guns were given as re-tirement gifts to some of the TDC Employee's.



Funny how history repeats it's self. The 38-40 is now reincarnated as the 40 S&W. Balistically they are about the same.

[Old Shatterhand]

Thanks for all your contributions to the thread - I have had a great time reading!

What loads do you use, and what velocities do you get?

Old Sh.

[EdinCT]

I have posted before that I have a 92 rifle that was my Grandfathers. I have shot deer with it and it did work well, has good has any of the 12 or more other calibers I have used. My 92 is the most accurate lever I have, easily keeping its shots in an inch at fifty yards even with a less than perfect bore. I load either IMR4227 over a 180 gr soft point or unique over 180 gr cast.
I have a winchester box marked $3.25 that my Grandfather bought around 1940 so times have changed. I was afraid to shoot deer with it when I was young because of the gun writers poohing all older cartridges heck even the 30wcf had bad press. My Dad used to say if you hit them where they live (the lungs) you will have a deer.
It is a joy to carry and if my eyes were better I would carry it more. I have a tang sight and in good light I can shoot very well but in dark woods I find a scope is a great aid. Glad to hear of others REAL results.
Last I have a friend who has family in Vermont and he said they had a 38-40 Marlin that they used for bear over their 30wcf because they believed it killed better. Its all about placement and confidence in what you have.

[OldWin]

EdinCt

Very true about placement. I have an old gunsmith friend who told me when I was working up cast loads, "don't worry too much about the speed, look for accuracy and practice until you can put them where you want.''

[KirkD]

I've done some experimentation with my 38-40 reloading. All my loading has been with the bullets I've cast from the RCBS 40-180-CM mould. My overall favourite load for the 38-40 for original black powder pressure and ballistics is 13.5 grains of 2400 for roughly (see results) 1,300 fps. Runner-up was 17.5 grains of 5744 for just over 1,300 fps. Here are some results in my guns; yours may differ:

Note: I find that some powders (especially 2400) are temperature sensitive, giving lower velocities for lower ambient temperatures, so the velocity of a given load depends on the day. I also found that the velocities were higher for new brass and lower for fire-formed, neck-sized only brass. Most velocities are averages of 5-shot strings unless otherwise noted.

OUT OF AN ORIGINAL WINCHESTER MODEL 1892 WITH 24" BARREL:

14 grains 2400 for 1,200 fps
14 grains 2400 for 1,272 fps
15 grains 2400 for 1,393 fps
15.5 grains 2400 for 1,398 fps
16 grains 2400 for 1,502 fps
16 grains 2400 for 1,529 fps

23 grains RL-7 for 1,400 fps
24 grains RL-7 for 1,462 fps

20 grains IMR 4198 for 1,322 fps
22 grains IMR 4198 for 1,439 fps

15 grains IMR SR4759 for 974 fps
17 grains IMR SR4759 for 1,094 fps
18 grains IMR SR4759 for 1,322 fps
19 grains IMR SR4759 for 1,470 fps

OUT OF AN ORIGINAL WINCHESTER MODEL 1873 WITH 24" BARREL:

17 grains IMR SR4759 for 1,211 fps
17.5 grains IMR SR4759 for 1,313 fps
17.5 grains IMR SR4759 for 1,305 fps
17.7 grains IMR SR4759 for 1,321 fps
17.7 grains IMR SR4759 for 1,376 fps

13 grains 2400 for 1,177 fps
13.3 grains 2400 for 1,278 fps
13.3 grains 2400 for 1,383 fps
13.5 grains 2400 for 1,289 fps
13.5 grains 2400 for 1,320 fps (10-shot string) Pet Load
13.5 grains 2400 for 1,238 fps (41 degrees F, 5 degrees C)
14 grains 2400 for 1,431 fps

17.5 grains of 5744 for 1,331 fps
18 grains of 5744 for 1,347 fps