OT 45 Colt in New Vaquero or Uberti, how hot can they handle

[bluesman423]

I am considering either a New Vaquero or a Cimarron Evil Roy in 45 Colt.

Can anybody give me some insight into the power level of handloads these two can endure on a regular basis? Hopefully slightly hotter than a factory non +P?

[J Miller]

Slightly hotter ... yes. Ruger - T/C level ... no way.

Joe

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Although there are many claims to the contrary, Ruger very specifically stated when the New Vaquero was introduced that it should not be shot with anything hotter than standard SAAMI spec 45 Colt ammo.

As for an Italian made clone of the SAA like the Evil Roy, they absolutely should not be fired with anything more robust then standard SAAMI spec 45 Colt ammo. Don't even think about it. They are no stronger than a regular Colt SAA. Take a look sometime how thin the chamber walls actually are.

There actually does not exist a SAAMI spec for +P 45 Colt as there does for +P 38 Special. There is no official pressure level. So one company's hot loaded 45 Colt ammo may loaded to a significantly different pressure level than another company's hot stuff.

You really should not be putting any of that stuff through either of those guns, particularly not a Colt clone like the Evil Roy.

[JReed]

The Cimarron is a colt replica. Would only recommend Colt level loads in it. The Ruger can take warmer loads then that but not as heavy as the older model.

[zack coyote]

How much power do you need? In my AWA Colt clone I use 8gr. of Unique under 250 gr. lead to get 860 fps., out of my 20" Rossi it gets just under 1100 fps. That will anchor most anything here in Texas. It's a nice fun load, and won't damage my guns.

[J Miller]

Alright, here we go again.

These Colt copies and Ruger New Vaqueros are not fragile. Virtually every one of these guns come with a 45 ACP cylinder. The SAAMI spec for the .45 ACP is 21,000 PSI. The guns handle it fine. You can run the 45 Colt up to that as well and there will be no problems.

Here we go. This is one thread we hashed it over in just a while back:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29931&p=371530&hili ... +p#p371530

There's been more too if you can work the search right.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Ruger has never ever said ANY of their guns were fit to use with anything other than factory ammo...
So now with that out of the way, the New Vaquero will handle more than enough pressure to make the 45 colt round do anything that needs doing with a handgun.
Look at pressure tested loading data and anything up to around 18-20K cup will take care of anything that needs shot with a handgun.
As far as that goes if you simply load the 45 colt to the original ballistics there's little doubt why the cartridge hungaround so well since 1873.
I've been using the Alliant bluedot data for the 45 colt as of late, and it's plenty powerful and offers enough recoil to satisfy the need for painful shooting..

[J Miller]

Don,

So us masochists can get a fix with Bluedot? Woooo Hooooo !

Personally I think a 45 Colt case full of 3F under a 250gr bullet is a great fix for those who want the noise, flame, smoke and recoil.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Joe that maximum bludot load in the NV is pretty snappy.
Not near as much smoke buck and roar as the 37 grs of goex 3f, but still fun.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Let's be real clear about this. The old Vaqueros were built on the SuperBlackhawk size frames and can be loaded to 44mag levels because those guns are about 10 to 15% larger (='s thicker cylinder walls) than the Colt SAA style or the New Vaquero.
To say that even the new vaquero is any stronger than the late model SAA's and clone is just not so. They are the same size gun. The cylinder wall thickness's are the same per cal.

The colt style grips even fit the new Vaquero. This feller didn't like the ruger checkered plastic but did like the colt checkered plastic. The colts being a bit thicker.

[Don McDowell]

When I compared/ measured the thickness of the cylinder walls between my first edition newmodel blackhawk 45 colt and the new model vaquero, there isn't enough to get worked up about, matter of fact the outside thickness were identical.
One of the sad points of the loss of all the good stuff we had posted on the old board I guess... It was all there with photo's.

[J Miller]

Let's be real clear about this. The old Vaqueros were built on the SuperBlackhawk size frames and can be loaded to 44mag levels because those guns are about 10 to 15% larger (='s thicker cylinder walls) than the Colt SAA style or the New Vaquero.
To say that even the new vaquero is any stronger than the late model SAA's and clone is just not so. They are the same size gun. The cylinder wall thickness's are the same per cal.

The colt style grips even fit the new Vaquero. This feller didn't like the ruger checkered plastic but did like the colt checkered plastic. The colts being a bit thicker.

Hmmmmm, Steve, it kind of looks like something else is going on inside that New Vaquero. That hammer looks to be on the quarter cock notch. Or ......... am I hallucinating?

Joe

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Yes, that gun has the halfcock hammer mod. no Tbar.

[Pisgah]

There are standard-pressure loads that will get a 255 gr. swc up to 900 fps in a 4 5/8" barrel, proportionally faster in longer barrels. That's all I need, and the New Vaq or Uberti will work perfectly well with such loads. Should I need more, I'd step up to the bigger frame.

[HillbillyGadget]

Here in Wyoming, centerfire firearms must be capable of of 500ftlb of muzzle energy at 100yds for big game, I asked our agent here in town if .45 colt would work in a handgun, he didn't think it would but if I had a ballistics table that showed a load that would meet the requirement it would be OK.
I can't find a table that shows what a .45 colt from a handgun would do at 100yds. And I haven't seen an old model Vaq. or blackhawk around here for a while, in order to shoot the heavy 300+ gr loads like Buffalo bore.

[J Miller]

Here in IL we have the same kind of archaic ft #'s regulations. Only here it's not as bad as you have it. We only have to make 500 ft #'s at the muzzle. 9.0grs Unique under a 265gr Keith SWC from a .45 Colt will do that from a 7.5" barrel.

But ... I'm in the same boat you are when it comes to 100 yards. I'm ballistics challenged and I just don't do higher math at all.

If we can figure out what the velocity is at 100 yds then it would be easy to calculate. But other than trying to shoot over a chronograph how do we calculate that?

I'm only posting because I'm interested too.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

A 240 gr bullet at 1200 will make legal.

The silly thing is tho, back when they had the "list" of cartridges that the commission found acceptable, the 41 mag was on that list. You have to have things wound up tighter than a 3 dollar watch to make a 210-220 gr bullet from a 4 5/8 inch barrel make the 500 fpe at 100 yds requirement.

[adirondakjack]

Steve, while I respect your expertise, simply measuring the thicknesses is not the be-all, end-all of strength. Ruger's investment casting system is par excellance. Though I would NOT, NEVER, EVER run the loads I can and have run in a BIG Ruger through a NRV, the new Vaquero is NOT a baby gun, nor would I necessarily limit it to the levels of a modern SAA if only because the SAA type lockwork suffers pounding poorly. Even the big old giant Virginian Dragoon, a fine piece of well made steel even BIGGER than a big Vaquero would spit out springs and chip hands and so forth when pushed because it used Colt lockwork.


I know what the Ruger SA line engineer told me about proofing the New Vaquero when it was developed, and I won't repeat it here, but I will say I would not be afraid to run any load up to say 25K out of one, and not sweat losing my fingers. That would be well above SAAMI, well above .45 ACP, and yet not up to the 32K loads the big gun can handle.

[Don McDowell]

Did a bit more number crunchin and a 250 at 1100 makes the 500 fpe at 100
Alliants bludot data says a 250 will be doing 1025 at saami spec. Don't think that extra 75 fps will stress much

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Steve, while I respect your expertise, simply measuring the thicknesses is not the be-all, end-all of strength. Ruger's investment casting system is par excellance. Though I would NOT, NEVER, EVER run the loads I can and have run in a BIG Ruger through a NRV, the new Vaquero is NOT a baby gun, nor would I necessarily limit it to the levels of a modern SAA if only because the SAA type lockwork suffers pounding poorly. Even the big old giant Virginian Dragoon, a fine piece of well made steel even BIGGER than a big Vaquero would spit out springs and chip hands and so forth when pushed because it used Colt lockwork.


I know what the Ruger SA line engineer told me about proofing the New Vaquero when it was developed, and I won't repeat it here, but I will say I would not be afraid to run any load up to say 25K out of one, and not sweat losing my fingers. That would be well above SAAMI, well above .45 ACP, and yet not up to the 32K loads the big gun can handle.

AJ,
It's not just the the thickness of the metal. I only made that comparison because the NRV and the current SAA's are the same in not only thickness but recommended load levels as well.
In other words, until Ruger says their NMV can be loaded beyond standard SAAMI specs I just don't think it's a good idea to assume they can.
I would hate to think someone comes to this forum and reads were folks here were loading to the edge because they feel the Ruger wil handle it. Then something goes wrong and they are hurt.
Not directly related but I just talked to a feller this weekend that changed powder in his 45lc loads and ended up blowing the top off his gun. He changed from trailboss to Titegroup. The two loads were the same weight so he assumed he could just use the same powder measure setting. The problem with that is the powder measure is set for volume ,not weight. The same volume of titegroup weighs much more than the equal volume of Trailboss.!!!!
The reason he didn't weigh them is the battery was down on his electronic scales!!!!
BATTERY!!!! Why does anyone need a battery powered scale????

My point is I just don't think it's agood idea to encourage folks to push the envelope.

[Chas.]

Alright, here we go again.

The SAAMI spec for the .45 ACP is 21,000 PSI. The guns handle it fine. You can run the 45 Colt up to that as well and there will be no problems.
Joe

That's just wrong, and if you believe it, you're liable to end up with a bloody nub where a hand used to be.

Using some very rough measurements the inside side-wall surface of a .45ACP is about 1.339 sq. in. The .45 Colt is about 1.939 sq. in.

Multiplying that number by the pounds per square inch, 21,000 in this case, I see a force of 28,000 pounds exerted against the cylinder wall with the .45ACP. Using the same math, the .45 Colt exerts a force of 40,000 pounds.

Even though the measurements of each caliber are inaccurate in this case, the difference is tremendous between the two, and would be tremendous if exact case measurements were used. Simple highschool physics. Pounds PER SQUARE INCH, and simple pounds, are NOT the same.

I know this doesn't answer the OP's question, but I thought it worth mentioning.

[J Miller]

Alright, here we go again.

The SAAMI spec for the .45 ACP is 21,000 PSI. The guns handle it fine. You can run the 45 Colt up to that as well and there will be no problems.
Joe

That's just wrong, and if you believe it, you're liable to end up with a bloody nub where a hand used to be.

Using some very rough measurements the inside side-wall surface of a .45ACP is about 1.339 sq. in. The .45 Colt is about 1.939 sq. in.

Multiplying that number by the pounds per square inch, 21,000 in this case, I see a force of 28,000 pounds exerted against the cylinder wall with the .45ACP. Using the same math, the .45 Colt exerts a force of 40,000 pounds.

Even though the measurements of each caliber are inaccurate in this case, the difference is tremendous between the two, and would be tremendous if exact case measurements were used. Simple highschool physics. Pounds PER SQUARE INCH, and simple pounds, are NOT the same.

I know this doesn't answer the OP's question, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Nope, not wrong at all. I don't know your math but I do know that what I have said is factual.
20,000 psi from a .45 ACP cartridge, is no different than 20,000 psi from a .45 Colt cartridge. I do believe it, and I have both hands and all 10 digits.
Sorry, but I think you're over thinking the equation.

Joe

[Griff]

37-38 grains of 3F tightly packed behind a 250 grain boolit inside a .45 Colt case will yield plenty of power and not overly stress either gun.

The rest of ya'll are givin' me a headache!

[Don McDowell]

Yup Griff, my chrono tells me that you can get 875fps from a 5.5 inch barrel, with good accuracy.

[J Miller]

You guys are right. Ever since the French ( I think it was the french ) invented smokeless powder things have just gotten too complicated.

Joe

[.45colt]

Good Lord,Elmer Keith had this figured out about 80 years ago. now with this hot new 2400 powder lets start with about 17gr and work up to around 18gr under a Keith/Lyman 255gr hardcast. it worked then in Colt SAA and with some reasonable handloading I can't see it wrecking a modern SAA.Goodnight.............................................................P.S. And that if the shooters gunhand can take it from a SAA type gun.

[adirondakjack]

Steve, while I respect your expertise, simply measuring the thicknesses is not the be-all, end-all of strength. Ruger's investment casting system is par excellance. Though I would NOT, NEVER, EVER run the loads I can and have run in a BIG Ruger through a NRV, the new Vaquero is NOT a baby gun, nor would I necessarily limit it to the levels of a modern SAA if only because the SAA type lockwork suffers pounding poorly. Even the big old giant Virginian Dragoon, a fine piece of well made steel even BIGGER than a big Vaquero would spit out springs and chip hands and so forth when pushed because it used Colt lockwork.


I know what the Ruger SA line engineer told me about proofing the New Vaquero when it was developed, and I won't repeat it here, but I will say I would not be afraid to run any load up to say 25K out of one, and not sweat losing my fingers. That would be well above SAAMI, well above .45 ACP, and yet not up to the 32K loads the big gun can handle.

AJ,
It's not just the the thickness of the metal. I only made that comparison because the NRV and the current SAA's are the same in not only thickness but recommended load levels as well.
In other words, until Ruger says their NMV can be loaded beyond standard SAAMI specs I just don't think it's a good idea to assume they can.
I would hate to think someone comes to this forum and reads were folks here were loading to the edge because they feel the Ruger wil handle it. Then something goes wrong and they are hurt.
Not directly related but I just talked to a feller this weekend that changed powder in his 45lc loads and ended up blowing the top off his gun. He changed from trailboss to Titegroup. The two loads were the same weight so he assumed he could just use the same powder measure setting. The problem with that is the powder measure is set for volume ,not weight. The same volume of titegroup weighs much more than the equal volume of Trailboss.!!!!
The reason he didn't weigh them is the battery was down on his electronic scales!!!!
BATTERY!!!! Why does anyone need a battery powered scale????

My point is I just don't think it's agood idea to encourage folks to push the envelope.

Steve, Ruger has NEVER encouraged the use of loads beyond SAAMI in any of their revolvers and based on their history in court, never will. .45 Colt specs are a "cluster" where to quote ole Elmer Keith, a man who wanders beyond the page had better know fully what he is about. That said, the NRV is not gonna self destruct at levels up to around a top end of say 25K.

To the folks confusing pressure with gas VOLUME, it makes zero difference if we create 25K in a .45 case .5" long or 1.5" long, the PRESSURE is in square units, and is the same force in an outward direction, period. Now how much powder it takes to create that same pressure WILL vary with case length, but it is the pressure we care about.

I'm not making this stuff up in an absense of experience. I've run some wicked hot loads in a variety of guns, but always, always done my homework and worked up very carefully. Ya don't just slap together any load that fits and tell yer pard "here, hold my beer" when yer doing this stuff, trust me, but if ya have a new vaquero and wish to create loads that exceed SAAMI by a fair bit, but atill stay well below the monster loads usable in the big vaquero, it can be done.

If yer in a state requiring a certain energy level, remember how we calculate energy. To get the ENERGY levels up, be mindful that energy is a calculation that favors velocity, and not bullet weight. Stay clear of the 300 grain bullets, maybe consider use of the 230 grain JHPs like the XTP, a push the VELOCITY to get the numbers ya need, while being mindful of the pressures, up to say 25K absolute max.. At HANDGUN distances yer gonna have plenty enough swat for whitetails, .......

[jd45]

I just dug out an old article by Paco on the .45 Colt cartridge entitled, " .45s....Small....Big....& Tall", in which he discusses revolver , as well as rifle loads. Said he killed a very large Zebra in the late '50s w/ a Colt SAA & COMMERCIAL ammo, (!). Also said he bought a Ruger Blackhawk convertible, & started with Elmers load of 18.5 2400 under a 260gr Keith SWC, which, BTW, he says he was ALREADY using with no problems, in a clone Colt SAA, so he went up to 22grs in the BH. I guess even back then, the clone Colt SAAs were made of stout stuff, tho he doesn't mention exactly WHICH clone he fired those Keith loads thru............coulda been one of those that were also offered in .44MAG, I guess. Just my 2 cents, jd45

[J Miller]

I just dug out an old article by Paco on the .45 Colt cartridge entitled, " .45s....Small....Big....& Tall", in which he discusses revolver , as well as rifle loads. Said he killed a very large Zebra in the late '50s w/ a Colt SAA & COMMERCIAL ammo, (!). Also said he bought a Ruger Blackhawk convertible, & started with Elmers load of 18.5 2400 under a 260gr Keith SWC, which, BTW, he says he was ALREADY using with no problems, in a clone Colt SAA, so he went up to 22grs in the BH. I guess even back then, the clone Colt SAAs were made of stout stuff, tho he doesn't mention exactly WHICH clone he fired those Keith loads thru............coulda been one of those that were also offered in .44MAG, I guess. Just my 2 cents, jd45

jd45,

Elmers load of 18.5grs of 2400 under the 260gr Keith bullet was put together in the 1920s (I think, maybe the 30s) in balloon head cases for use in first generation Colt SAAs. That is how old that load is. He never blew up a Colt or S&W with that load.
I have some QuickLoad data that shows that load with a 265gr Keith bullet runs just under 20,000 PSI. It doesn't even come up to the 45 ACP specs.
But, the old wives tale: "the .45 Colt is a weakling and it's gonna blow up and tear your hands off if you exceed SAAMI specs" just won't die.

What can you do?

Joe

[jd45]

Press on, regardless of what the naysayers say, I guess, Joe. jd45

[COSteve]

To the folks confusing pressure with gas VOLUME, it makes zero difference if we create 25K in a .45 case .5" long or 1.5" long, the PRESSURE is in square units, and is the same force in an outward direction, period. Now how much powder it takes to create that same pressure WILL vary with case length, but it is the pressure we care about.

While true, there are other elements of pressure; i.e. bolt thrust, where the size of the case (it's base) does have a considerable affect.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Hey AJ

I wonder if the Ruger line engineer you usta know is the same one I usta know. He did say that the New Vaquero was built tough, but he would not elaborate.

By the way, Ruger uses traditional milling of bar stock to make their cylinders. The frames and other parts are made from investment castings.