polyfill filler

[eagles]

Ok when I got my 50-110 from Regan Noneman he told me the load he used in the bullets I supplied (special spire point Hawk slugs intneded for single shot use , 650 grains ) was IMR 4759 , 34 grains with a polyfill filler I hace his email and just copied it, so no mistake here . I was just talking to Mic at Mic Mags who makes the 510 KE and he said this when I asked him about theoads , where they high, medium or low end loads . I can tell you this for an absolute fact . I would never shoot any load using any synthetic filer , moreover I would also never deliberately be anywhere near a gun when such a load ws being fired . such a combination is just a detonation waiting to happen . Not my opinion but well proven fact . if you are lucky when things go awry , it will only ring the the chamber , if you are unlucky when things go awry , it will blow the chamber and reciever into myriad pieces . If asked to do so I could not describe a better reciepe for such a disaster " So myquestion to ther group is when Regan sent me a bunch of loads do I have hand grenades waiting to happen here ( I have not used them yet as the gun as been all around getting things done to it and I am still not done and ready to shoot . Be honest this sounds serious !!!!

[Kansas Ed]

I think I would ask for references to his "well proven fact" statement. Make sure it is well proven, cause I hear a lot of rhetoric that is claimed to be "well proven" that is nothing more than an urban myth. Kinda like the 53 vette that some friend of a friend of a acquaintance had that they bought from the parents of a Vietnam Vet that's been sitting on concrete blocks in the barn for 45 years. I used to hear the term "documented" all the time too, but all "documented" means is that someone put it on paper....it doesn't require truthfulness to "document" it.

Puff-Lon filler is built and marketed specifically for this purpose, and is specifically stated to use with smokeless powders in large cases. See below.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,5531.html

Ed

[TedH]

There are folks that use it, and those that won't. I use a poly filler in my 470 Nitro Express loads, and know of a lot of others that do as well with the big Nitro Express rounds. One thing, I believe, that is important is that when using a filler like that, is that there is no air space left. I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions here as well.

[J Miller]

On another forum a poster gave me the recipe for his pet .45 Colt load.
It was 8.0grs Unique with a Hornady 255gr lead bullet. Over the Unique he puts 1.0grs Polyfill fiber filling.
His comment is that Unique doesn't really need a filler, but in this case it just makes the loads more consistent.
I have two boxes of ammo loaded to test this but so far I've not gotten to the range.
Since this person is a retired gunsmith, I'm tending to accept what he says as truth. And when I do get this test ammo to the range I'll shoot it with no worries.

Joe

[SFRanger7GP]

I have used a lot of fillers over the years; poly, dacron, cream of wheat. I got the best results with Ballistic Products Original Buffer filler. I have had great results using cast bullets (even paper patched bullets) and smokeless powder in large cases. Since I started using XMP 5744 and Trail Boss, I haven't found a lot of need for to use fillers.

Unless I know a person really well, I would never shoot someone else's reloads.

Like any reloading, do your research and follow the recipes of those that know and have access to the right equipment to test safety, pressure levels, etc.

[Hobie]

Ross Seyfried uses fillers, I do not. Mr. Seyfried is extremely knowledgeable and experienced, I am moderately so. I simply don't like fillers and use powders which have a loading density such that fillers wouldn't be needed in order to avoid using them. Of all the fillers I've ever seen recommended it seems to me that PuffLon is most likely the safest but I don't use even that.

One overriding concern with fillers. You simply must not ever have an air space/gap between the filler and the base of the bullet.

[CowboyTutt]

I've had this discussion with Mic as well over the years. He told me some stories of incidences he has had first hand reports of, one of which I remember. A customer or friend was using a filler in his rifle. Mic kept telling him that if he continued to do so, he would ring his chamber. The friend said the usual "I've been using this filler for years with no problems" and continued to do so. One day, within a year, he called Mic to say he was right as his chamber was ruined. It sort of like the old addage with motorcyclists: "Its not IF your going down, its WHEN". In particular, Mic feels the synthetic fillers are the worst as a lot of heat energy is absorbed as it melts and liquifys the filler. This energy is needed in the combustion process. I would think if your going to do this, I would use toilet paper the way Kirk D. does. At least it doesn't absorb heat. Its hard for me to speak for Mic and he could explain it to you in more detail, but he doesn't do forums because people just wouldn't listen to him anyways.

I'd be curious what Terry Murbach has to say on the subject.

-Tutt

[KirkD]

On the one hand, I've used toilet paper filler in quite a few different old cartridges and for a lot of rounds, but I do have my own rules. On the other hand, I would be very hesitant to use someone else's loads unless I fully understood the rationale behind that load and had a good idea of what sort of pressure range it would be. On the third hand, I've had the occasional bad experience with no fillers, such as outlined in my recent post on 'Getting an education'. On the fourth hand, 34 grains of IMR SR4759 is a force to be reckoned with, especially under a big heavy bullet like that the pressure has got to be decent. I've never used anywhere near that amount of SR4759 in a case, but then again, the 50-110 is a big case. If it was a load with the original weight bullet, and original ballistics, then I might be able to offer some thoughts, but that bullet is a lot heavier than the original 50-110 bullet, so I'm in the dark. When all is said and done, you won't catch me endorsing that load for you. Sorry I can't be of more help. Just call me 'Cautious'.

[Bronco]

Howdy,

With all the controversy of using fillers why is it that more people don't use larger quantities of a slower powder to fill the case?? I have done a lot of range time working my 50-110 using IMR 4895 and 4064! The cases are full and no need to worry about powder position. Slower powders duplicate BP velocities and with a full case. Other than the saving of powder what is the fascination with using a filler to fill up the case with all the potential of problems. Not trying to start or fan any fire! Just want to gather information, maybe some one can sell me on using fillers.Till then I will fill up the case with slow powder.

John

[Ray Newman]

How about using a black powder Duplex load??....

[Kansas Ed]

John,
I thought the same thing while developing loads for the 38-72, but when trying IMR-4320 (previous powders being 3031 and 4064) my groups were so wild that I gave up on that train of thought. Granted I'd only tried two different loads with that powder, but I just figured that they were indicative of too slow a powder in that cartridge. I would be interested in hearing more on that topic though.

Ed

[Chuck 100 yd]

What Hobie said+1

[kimwcook]

I don't have a lot of experience using fillers, but I have used Dacron poly fill before and I'll never do it again. Not that it caused any problems that any other load doesn't, accuracy, etc.. other than the melted poly was a pain to clean up.

[eagles]

Mic seems to have some good scientific reasons against the fillers which seem more substanitive then , maybe he is not correct , at least to me . He says the only filler he feels comfortable in using is florist foam which is made from cellulose and crushes when the round is fired . Synthetic fillers he says first compress monumentaly and then melt -each process absorb a great deal of energy avaialble from the primer . As the charge compreses into the front of the case much of the case interior is exposed , the naked brass absorbs even more energy . If the primer ignites only enough of the charge to create enough gas to begain to move the bullet it is completlely possible that pressure can then drop until the flame almost goes out because as the bullet moves the chamber will cool and the burning gases will then condense onto uninvited granules and the case interior , hence pressure will plummet, which can allow the bullet to dramaticlay slow or even stop in the bore . Then the remaining charge can cook to kindling temperature , then it will ignite and burn rapidly , then if the bullet acclerates at just the right rate , a standing wave will form somewhere between bullet base and case head , and as the charge burns , the peak of that pressure wave will get progressively narrower and taller until the wave dissipates , as the bullet accelerates , or the steel fails , either elasticaly or catastrohically. As far as proof he is said it is well known and the Krupp commision proved al of this in 1888 destroying many guns .He said he has a picture of a Marlin destoyed by this filler in t his way that is a pile of mangles parts .

[Griff]

I have not used any fillers in any of my loads... but that doesn't mean I don't think they can be safe... just that I haven't experimented to the extent that I'm comfortable with them... The following is my mantra when it comes to using someone else's loads or data:

Unless I know a person really well, I would never shoot someone else's reloads.
Like any reloading, do your research and follow the recipes of those that know and have access to the right equipment to test safety, pressure levels, etc.

[CowboyTutt]

Eagle, your post definitely smacks of one of Mic's emails. I think you ment to say in your post that he provided you with enough information to believe him but not sure. Its a funny thing about powders and empty cases. If you use too little of a slow burning powder in a large case, you get erratic ignition, possible chamber ringing and maybe a detonation. If you use a filler incorrectly, the same thing can happen. What Mic and most of his associates use is 5744. It was designed for the purpose of duplicating BP and does so well and it powder position insensitive. If it means anything to you, of the few times I have been to the Friends of Billy Dixon Ultra Long Range Shooting Facility I have found NO ONE who is using fillers.

-Tutt

[eagles]

If you read my email it says "Mic Says " So yes I was repeating the information Mic told me and thought I made that clear. If this were info I was certain about I would not have taken the ammo that was sent to me and would not ask as I would allready know the answer . I also said what Mic supplied made sense ,. It supplies physical reasoning and uses the Krupp study as evidence . So far other people who dont agree jujst say that sounds like Mic or ask for proof ( which I seem to have gotten) . If anyo0ne can refute the points he made , point by point then it would seem some one has done the research he has done and it was proven wrong . Do I believe it ? At this point I am scared NOT TO as the contrary arguments so far are non existant . Now as far as NO ONE is using these fillers that would be great BUT remember what I said, REGAN NONEMAN who is probably known to everyon on this list loaded these shells with the fillers I mentiuoned and gave me what he put in them which is what I told Mic and what started this . SO somone IS using them , at least Regan is (is he the ONLY one , I doubt it ) . I was looking forward to shooting these but honeslty I am spooked by disintegrating guns and missing pieces of my face etc . Maybe I am worried for nothing . But again the contrary evidence seems to be, no one is doing it (not so as per above ) or , oh its just Mic . If his description can not be refuted perhaps it has validity ?

[CowboyTutt]

Eagles, the events I have attended at the FoBD have been small with anywhere from 8- 20 people, but everyone did seem to be using 5744, 4198 or BP. I was an exception by using Blue Dot which was a load developed with Mic's help. Noneman is a reliable source, but he may not have the experience of Mic who has spent many hours working inside of ballistic labs. I think your concern is well warrented. I just wanted to be sure I understood your post correctly. I'm not so sure your gun will blow up in your face, but I think chamber ringing eventually is a real possibility. Mic is recognized by his Shootist peers as being a genius if it means anything. I know about 9 Shootists now so I think I can say that reliably. Its really hard to sort all of this stuff out when there are so many experienced people like Noneman and Mic around, and they all have different opinions. So I defininatley know how you feel as I have been down this road so many times before! But after knowing Mic for a few years now, and having disagreed with him at times, I have learned to finally trust him. He is really a remarkable individual. I have caused the poor man to pull his hair out at times, but he has proven to me that he really knows his stuff. If he has takent the time to anwer your emails, you should be very thankful.

-Tutt

[Kansas Ed]

I think the reason that no one else is using these fillers, is that other fillers are available for so much less money. We as levergunners have a tendency to use things which are available and are somewhat traditional. Thereby eliminating the Poly type fillers available to us. You have to admit that $26 per pound of Poly filler is pretty steep compared to cornmeal, TP, or COW which is relatively cheap.

That doesn't mean that they are as failsafe as the Poly, but we as a group are somewhat enamored with the "traditional". I wasn't trying to cast shadows on Mic's (is this Mic Mcpherson we're talking about) information, but questioning the source of his information.

My recent experiences regarding fillers and the strong opinions, both positive and negative, formed around them require me to ask questions.

It's tough to track down the basis for failures because there are so many variables related to reloading. Just because someone blows a firearm to bits, doesn't mean that the one variable that they personally have decided MUST be the contributing factor, is accurate. There are so many variables that it is almost impossible to definitively trace the source of the failure.

For instance: I recently had to disassemble half a box of ammo I was reloading because I found that my measure was plugging while using the small spout. We weren't sitting there observing each and every load which failed, nor do we have repeatable evidence that any fillers cause reliable evidence of causing dangerous conditions.

I meant no disrespect to you or anyone who gave you information, but the question is still remains a valid one.

One other side note: I agree with many others on this thread, that I will shoot no one else's reloads, Period...except for my brothers.

Ed

[CowboyTutt]

Ed, yes, we are talking about Mic McPherson. And yes, there are many variables involved, and many knowledgable people with differing opinions. It can be very hard to sort it all out. But some people like Mic do make a living at it, and have spent many hours in ballistics labs, and do have more experience in the matter than most of us internet types. So after a couple of years knowing Mic, I have pretty much decided to trust him. He at least does have a reloading manual to his credit and the 4th edition of it is in the works. I think that means something.

-Tutt

[grass range]

I have used Puff-lon in rifle and pistol cartridges w/o any problems. I think the bullet has to compress the filler when seated so I fill case to the top. I have seen toilet paper used and a piece came out the muzzle with a spark on it. This could start a grass fire is not a popular thing to have happen in a state which is mostly grass.

[grass range]

A long time ago we used toilet paper until some came out the muzzle with a spark on it and started a grass fire. I used corn meal in my 40-70 Sharps but obviously did not have it compressed enough as it mixed with the powder while rolling around on my dashboard so I ended up with a dud. Now I use Puff-Lon in anything with a reduced charge. Fill it right to the case mouth so it compresses with the bullet

[piller]

I would never use anyones reloads, and I am now very cautious about which loaded ammo I buy after a bad situation with some Houston Cartridge Company 9mm ammunition. As far as fillers go, it seems reasonable to me that anything compressible should be stuffed in to the point that it becomes almost solid so that it holds the powder in place and that it should be something which would be less likely to melt so that it doesn't attach to the chamber, throat, or barrel. I am certainly no expert on that. I am interested in light loads for the .30-06 for my wife. She loves her .30-30 but thinks the .30-06 kicks a little too much for her comfort level.

[TedH]

I'd have to question the synthetic fiber type fillers actually melting and liquifying. I have picked up my fillers off the range after firing and they are sooted some, and you can tell which part was near the fire, but they are no where near melted.

[J Miller]

At the beginning of this thread I mentioned the .45 Colt ammo I had loaded with the Polyfill.
Two comments:
A: The one grain by weight of Polyfill completely filled the void between the powder and the base of the bullet. No air gap what so ever.

B: I fired it all in an indoor range. Guns used had 4.75" and 7.5" barrels.
It smelled slightly like burning plastic but I never saw any of it come out of the muzzle or go down range. As best as I can tell, it all burned up. Of course by range rules I couldn't go past the firing line to look, but much of the ammo was fired at targets on the 7 yd line and there was nothing on the target or below it.

I can't speak for anything other than this.

Joe