Self-defense shooting? Don't talk to the police...

[Hobie]

That's some of the advice that's out there. I know there's some LEOs on this forum (and some lawyers) and you may or may not want to weigh in on this for one reason or another BUT, I thought I'd let you see the video if you hadn't already and comment if you wanted to.

PS - This isn't supposed to be political but it MIGHT turn that way and I'll move the topic if it does.

[Catshooter]

When you're a child you're taught that the police are your friends, and they are, then.

But when the "To protect and serve" slogan started coming off of cars things started changing. Most cops are good, dedicated men & women. But some aren't. And after a self defense shooting, none are your friends. Their agenda and your's may or may not coinceide and you don't want to find out the hard way then.


Cat

[BigSky56]

Everyone has the right to remain silent but very few have the ability to. danny

[Doc Hudson]

For many years I've advised people:

If you are forced to shoot someone, say nothing to the police except,"i would like to talk to an attorney before I talk to you.

In fact I've also often told people that if the shooting is in any way open to question, call your attorney before you call the police.

Then you can tell the police: "I will talk to you after my attorney arrives. He should be here shortly."

Always remember:
WHAT YOU DON'T SAY CAN'T BE HELD AGAINST YOU.

SILENCE IS GOLDEN.

[piller]

I have been told to demand the arrest of the attacker. In the case of a shooting, the Police are not there to be anyone's friend, but to find out what happened. If they start with the wrong idea, they might follow the wrong path and ignore all evidence to the contrary and arrive at an erroneous conclusion. I have seen this behavior in many people, not just in LEOs, and it is often from starting with a conclusion and not taking in all the facts available. If this gets moved to the political section, I might add a political comment later.

[adirondakjack]

Anything you say WILL be used against you if they decide to. They will NOT use your words to help you. What is the "up" side of talking?

Also, police are allowed to lie to you, and when they say ' Just tell us what happened so we can help you" you have zero reason to believe they are not lying to you right then.

"I was in fear of my life. I can't talk right now. I would like to contact my attorney" (repeat as necessary until results are acheived, since they may develop selective deafness until ya repeat yourself)

if they say "well, the guilty ones always want an attorney", don't take the bait. SHUT YER PIE HOLE.

[olyinaz]

Good advice. ZIP IT, don't be fooled, wait for your attorney.

If you've done something wrong he will mitigate the damage and minimize whatever price you have to pay. If you've done nothing wrong he will see to it that you pay no price other than his fee.

Oly

[piller]

Considering that the Chief of Police of the town I live in was caught breaking into businesses and stealing items, covered up for his nephew, an officer caught smoking marijuana in his squad car, and that one of the Sheriffs of my home town was one of the original distributors for the Cali Cartel while a Sheriff, and none of the 3 has ever been given jail time for their crimes, it would appear that asking for a lawyer would be in your best interest. Not all LEOs are criminals, not all citizens are criminals, not all attorneys are criminals.

[Leverdude]

Great link Hobie, I'v seen it before. People like to think the police are their friends & as individuals they can be. But when push comes to shove & they come in the line of duty its them against you period & they'd much rather arrest the wrong guy & let the courts settle it then do the right thing because its the right thing. A good example of this is the fact that police, even very outspoken pro gun officers, will definately enforce gun laws that obviously violate our rights even though they may think, or say they think, that the laws are wrong. They'll do this knowing that in most cases a conviction will negate all your gun rights, friends dont do this sort of thing. The best thing you can do is zip it. As noted, they can & will lie to you, buy God forbid if you make a misstatement thats later construed as a lie. Best thing is call a lawyer before talking. Then you can pay him/her to keep the other folks you pay, police, prosecutors etc, from turning you into a statistic.

JMHO but I think all persons involved in law enforcement, from traffic cops to federal judges should be given an exam to see if, in their mind justice & the constitution weigh in more than statutes & legislation.
If they dont, then they are not fit for the job.

[Pisgah]

A dear friend, now deceased, was an investigator for a nearby sheriff's department for 30 years. When a mutual acquaintance was arrested on serious charges, and confessed to them during interrogation, I expressed my shock and surprise. My friend turned to me,and said, " If you are ever arrested and interrogated, DO NOT talk without your lawyer present. We WILL get a confession out of you, guilty or not!"

My brother, a defense lawyer for 25 years now, suggests you say, "Officer, I want to cooperate fully with your investigation, and I will -- as soon as my attorney is present." After that, don't even discuss the weather until the lawyer arrives. When you call 911 to report ist (which you should always do immediately), you should say, "There has been a self-defense shooting and I need medics and police here right away." That's all the info they need for the time being.

[firefuzz]

My brother, a defense lawyer for 25 years now, suggests you say, "Officer, I want to cooperate fully with your investigation, and I will -- as soon as my attorney is present." After that, don't even discuss the weather until the lawyer arrives. When you call 911 to report ist (which you should always do immediately), you should say, "There has been a self-defense shooting and I need medics and police here right away." That's all the info they need for the time being.

Good advice here. In the aftermath of a shooting you're shook up. You need time and distance from the incident to be able to form an accurate answer. Cooperating is one thing, talking yourself into a jail cell is quite another. Usually the above is enough to stop even the most determined investigator, if not "I'm having trouble breathing" (or chest pains) will do it every time. Hand them your ID, give them your phone number, and go sit down.

In ALL the civilian firearms courses I teach this is discussed in great detail. Most cops, the good ones anyway, don't want to trick someone into saying something that doesn't represent the actual events. But there are certainly those that are more concerned with marks on a wall than justice.

Rob

[Tycer]

Outstanding video.

Keep in mind that in any altercation where the law is involved, the FIRST PERSON to say they want to press charges sits in the plaintiff's chair. You NEVER want to be second place in that race. As Dr. Duane said, if you are in the defendant's chair, that's one strike against you.

If I am ever in any altercation, the first and maybe only thing I say to the arriving officer or maybe even on the 911 call (IF I can't find someone else to call for me) will be something like "Officer, that person attacked me. I want to press charges." I'll say that even if I have good reason to believe the attacker might not be alive.

The officer in part two of that video made it clear that when someone properly uses the 5th, he assumes the person is innocent, not guilty. Guilty people love to tell their story. "I didn't do it and here's why..."

[TedH]

The lawyer that spoke to the ccw class I was in several years ago said this. "If you remember nothing else from this class, remember this, 'I was afraid for my life and I want to talk to my attorney.' That is ALL you say to the police if you are ever involved in a shooting."

[O.S.O.K.]

I was reading Hobie's thread about don't talk to the police. Totally understand - excellent reminder.

One thing that continually pops into my mind anytime I read or watch or think about this.

It is always said "tell them that you need to talk to your attorney before you will speak to them".

So, who here has an attorney? I mean the implication is that you have an attorney on retainer or even just one identified as "yours".

I don't have an attorney. And I don't know very man people that do.

Do you?

[olyinaz]

LOL. I thought of that as well.

Well here's the deal, it's pretty easy to find representation so what I suggest that everyone should do is have a law firm or a lawyer in mind, with their contact information in your wallet or stored in your phone. Bear in mind that you would want a criminal lawyer - a lawyer who is knowledgeable in these matters. For example, I have a law firm in Tucson that I have worked with on various estate issues but that also has a brace of lawyers who do trial work and specialize in criminal cases so I have them in mind and will call them if I need representation. I got serious about this when I got my concealed carry permit but it's something that works for pretty much anyone . If you've never needed any legal representation don't be intimidated, law firms are staffed with human beings and if you call and tell them what you're looking for you'll eventually zero in on what you need.

You ask a GREAT question and this is a situation where a bit of time spent before hand will save you a lot of worry and angst in the midst.

Best,
Oly

[Hobie]

OSOK,

I merged your topic because your discussion is part of what I wanted by topic to include.

I don't have a lawyer, but I've been thinking I should!

[adirondakjack]

I have among my friends two DA's, one current, one former (now a judge). In conversations over the years, one statistic these ELECTED officials are very much concerned with ns "rate of convictions" (I call it "batting average"). IF YOU ARE CHARGED BY POLICE, the DA HAS TO find you guilty of somethig, most often a plea to a lesser offense (no work and expense of a trial, just administratively walk ya through the sausage grinder) to get a "hit". EVERY TIME they decline to prosecute it is seen as a failure of either the DA or the police, every time. It is a "strike out" when they stood there looking at the ball, or the police swung at "unhittable" pitches.

So how do you "win" as a citizen? DON'T LET EM PUT YA IN THE SYSTEM. DON'T GET CHARGED. A LAWYER who enters the situation early, when you have not done damage to your case by running your mouth can make sure there is no POLICE charge, rather that he gets to see the situation through the grand jury, where he can obtain the ONLY "respectable" outcome for the DA, the police, and YOU. A "NO BILL" from a grand jury is seen as a sort of absolution. No crime was committed, the cops did theuir job, the DA did his, and the citizen did nothing wrong.

IF POLICE CHARGE YOU (and they will if you have no lawyer and run your mouth), they will try to get a conviction to maintain "batting average". YOU DON'T MATTER TO THEM!!!! Only their "performance" in their job, aka "batting average".

I don't care if we're talking a shooting, a traffic accident, somebody caught with a pot seed in his pocket while in your car, whatever. NEVER allow em to "paper" you based on your statement without advice of an attorney.

[Doc Hudson]

Most excellent advise Adirondackjack!

When I was in Mississippi, I knew a number of lawyers, socially, from church or lodge.

Since I've come back to Alabama, the only attorneys I know are a couple of cousins. One works for the stae and I'm not sure of Albert's specialty. I suppose I ought to get his advise about a firm or criminal law attorneys here in south central Alabama.

[AJMD429]

So, who here has an attorney? I mean the implication is that you have an attorney on retainer or even just one identified as "yours".

If you have a 'business' attorney who does leases and such, THAT person may be no good at a 'self-defense' case.

The OTHER scenario I'm sure gets blended-in to things all the time for 'political' reasons, is 'gun law violations' - and although there are many 'self-defense' attorneys, I'll bet very FEW attorneys have much knowledge of federal gun laws and the shenanigans some of the alphabet-goon agencies can pull there. If your attorney hasn't been politically pro-gun all his/her life, he/she may be totally clueless as to the type stuff that goes on in that area.

I just don't know how one finds an attorney who can deal with all those issues, but I agree that HAVING one would be better in advance.

I don't think this was the kind of environment our nation's founders wanted us to be living in.

[O.S.O.K.]

NP Hobie - I just didn't want to jack your thread

[adirondakjack]

So, who here has an attorney? I mean the implication is that you have an attorney on retainer or even just one identified as "yours".

If you have a 'business' attorney who does leases and such, THAT person may be no good at a 'self-defense' case.

The OTHER scenario I'm sure gets blended-in to things all the time for 'political' reasons, is 'gun law violations' - and although there are many 'self-defense' attorneys, I'll bet very FEW attorneys have much knowledge of federal gun laws and the shenanigans some of the alphabet-goon agencies can pull there. If your attorney hasn't been politically pro-gun all his/her life, he/she may be totally clueless as to the type stuff that goes on in that area.

I just don't know how one finds an attorney who can deal with all those issues, but I agree that HAVING one would be better in advance.

I don't think this was the kind of environment our nation's founders wanted us to be living in.

I don't "have" an attorney for every potential reason I might ever need one. I do "have" an attorney I have used for simple stuff, wills, real estate, helped wife with a traffic ticket, etc. HIS JOB would be to get his self out of bed, come to the PD RIGHT NOW, then help me get an appropriate 'specialist" for the situation I found myself in.....

I mean really, I don't have an oncologist on call either, but I do have a general sawbones....

[Rusty]

I often thought a lawyer could do a land office business by having someone set up a booth for him at a gun show and sell a package say for $20 a year. That initial $20 would be a retainer that would allow you to call them in the event of a situation. You would still be liable for hourly rates if you had to call but you would at least have a relationship with someone you could call if "IT" ever happened.

[Griff]

I am acquaintances with two attorneys thru our SASS club... (at least two that admit to being one), and if ever in question, I wouldn't hesitate to call either... for for nothing else than to recommend a good defense attorney. And, any attorney would tell ya what Doc Hudson said.

With that said, the person the dials 911 FIRST does themself a great service... "there's been an attempt on my life, a shooting ensued, I need an ambulance and the police." Do not hesitate to identify yourself as the victim early on. Just as was said earlier... if the other party identifies themself as the victim, the nature of humans takes over... a mindset is established, in the person that takes the call and relays that information to the responding officer. Now, how good and experienced that officer is... may countermand that initial prejudice, but not often... how much are you willing to gamble on that.

Yep, I'm calling my lawyer friend first, even if nothing else than to leave a message (likely anyway), and then calling 911. I want the responding officers to know I'm the victim.

Honestly, tho', your best bet is to keep an attitude of quiet viligence about youself, don't travel or frequent those places where bad people congregrate and feel they may have a "victim"; in doing so, you will probably NEVER then be in the situation where it is necessary to use deadly force.

[Hankster]

"You have the right to an Attorney. If you cannot afford one, one will be provided for you"..... ask for him!...... If not, find one in advance..., write the number on something in your wallet.... and you're prepared!!

[adirondakjack]

With the Supreme court ruling this year, after being given your rights, Miranda, you MUST tell the officers that you intend to remain silent. If you don't tell them, they are permitted to continue to question.

THEY can talk all they want. A policeman's questions and theories are nothing. NO MATTER WHAT, keep yer pie hole shut because YOUR WORDS are evidence, and will be edited and skewed to provide the picture they wanna paint.

[Doc Hudson]

With the Supreme court ruling this year, after being given your rights, Miranda, you MUST tell the officers that you intend to remain silent. If you don't tell them, they are permitted to continue to question.

THEY can talk all they want. A policeman's questions and theories are nothing. NO MATTER WHAT, keep yer pie hole shut because YOUR WORDS are evidence, and will be edited and skewed to provide the picture they wanna paint.

I saw a segment on a news magazine TV show a few daysa ago about a father convicted of raping and murdering his 12-year-old daughter.

In the courst of a 17 hour interrogation the police squeezed a confession out o the man. in fact between the time of the murder and his trial the man made four confessions.

There was only one problem. he didn't do it! And before the case went to trial, the police and DA KNEW he didn't do it. In fact the real rapist/murderer was already in jail for another crime. DNA evidence linked the other man to the crime, but the evidence was not submitted in court. i believe the father spent more than a year in prison before his attorney was informed of the DNA evidence. IIRC, even though there is proof the father is innocent, and proof of guilt of another man, the father is still in prison and his attorney is facing great difficulty in getting him freed.

If you talk without an attorney present, you can be tricked or coerced into confessing darned near anything.

WHAT YOU DON'T SAY CAN'T BE USED AGAINST YOU!!!

[Old Ironsights]

I saw a segment on a news magazine TV show a few daysa ago about a father convicted of raping and murdering his 12-year-old daughter.

In the courst of a 17 hour interrogation the police squeezed a confession out o the man. in fact between the time of the murder and his trial the man made four confessions.

There was only one problem. he didn't do it! And before the case went to trial, the police and DA KNEW he didn't do it. In fact the real rapist/murderer was already in jail for another crime. DNA evidence linked the other man to the crime, but the evidence was not submitted in court. i believe the father spent more than a year in prison before his attorney was informed of the DNA evidence. IIRC, even though there is proof the father is innocent, and proof of guilt of another man, the father is still in prison and his attorney is facing great difficulty in getting him freed.

If you talk without an attorney present, you can be tricked or coerced into confessing darned near anything.

WHAT YOU DON'T SAY CAN'T BE USED AGAINST YOU!!!

Think Wenatchee WA... and the way an uppty Sheriff destroyed an entire church with bogus charges of sex crimes and coerced confessions...

[Hillbilly]

my guy here in OKC says to keep the verbals down to "name rank and serial number"... Doug figures most of the folks he's worked with on shootings get kinda chatty... and that works against them when other details come into play in the days following the shooting.

[Hankster]

Sad thing, those who are SUPPOSED to be watching out for you can screw you so easy, but it's true!! (I have that video downloaded! Show it to lots of people!) Too many froggin lawyers,, Career politicos who NEED headlines to score big victories in the polls.. so YOU become a "stepping stone" instead of a "citizen".... sad, but true! What the heck has happened to the good old USA???

[El Chivo]

the police can't arrest a dead guy...

[Pisgah]

>I saw a segment on a news magazine TV show a few daysa ago about a father convicted of raping and murdering his 12-year-old daughter.

This crime took place 20 miles from here, and I know lawyers on BOTH sides of the case and have discussed it with both. In fact, I had the two of them in a deposition the morning that the show aired, and afterwards they discussed the case with me for almost an hour.
(As a Court Reporter, I get to hear all sorts of interesting stuff the public will likely never know.)

They disagree, of course, as to the man's guilt, and both make very good and convincing arguments for their side of the question; however, both agree that the police seriously bungled the investigation and that the judge excluded evidence he should not have excluded. They also agree that the father did himself serious harm by talking to police as it was clear from the get-go that they had concluded "he was there -- he did it."

Dateline, of course, took the defendant's side and -- this should not need to be said -- left out a great deal of good evidence favorable to the prosecution.

[Pisgah]

> And before the case went to trial, the police and DA KNEW he didn't do it. In fact the real rapist/murderer was already in jail for another crime. DNA evidence linked the other man to the crime, but the evidence was not submitted in court. i believe the father spent more than a year in prison before his attorney was informed of the DNA evidence.

Not true. Both were arrested within a month. Both were tried at the same time. Both were convicted. Conspiracy was one of the charges.

[fordwannabe]

I have to admit I am fortunate in this instance. I have a brother who spent 11 years as a federal prosecutor and is now a defense attorney, and my baby brother was a local chief of police for several years. Both tell me the same thing (off the record), "I was in fear of my life, and I want my lawyer", and shoot till the guns empty, dead guys tell less convincing tales. That's from both sides of the coin so to speak. Tom

[03gringo]

The other posters have not mentioned an important scenario--one where the defender might draw his, gun but not fire because the attacker ran away. I know of a case where this happened, and the attacker then filed charges for "brandishing a firearm". This charge is a misdemeanor here, but still not something a person would want on his record, and it could affect your concealed carry permit. The defender in this case did call 911 at the time of the incident and was "on record" that the attacker had assaulted him.

The defender's attorney contacted the prosecutor in the case, explained in detail what happened, and brought out the fact that the attacker admitted assaulting the defender in the sworn statment he filed for the brandishing charge. The prosecutor dismissed the charge.

The same rules apply about what to say when calling 911, not saying much to the police and getting a criminal defense attorney on your side early in the game.

[adirondakjack]

That natural tendancy to be chatty is what hangs so many folks. You find yerself in a situation, maybe not as serious as a shooting, maybe a car accident, and YOU KNOW IN YER HEART you are in the right. So you start EXPLAINING it to the cops. Meanwhile the other party is "explaining" it from his angle. If he is maybe a better talker, better dressed, went to school with one of the cops, wears a tee shirt for a ball team one of the cops likes, they may well begin to believe him and discount you as a liar. COPS GET LIED TO ALL DAY, and expect it. Just because you KNOW something is true, don't expect you can "explain" it to the cops. AAMOF, in the process of explaining, you might use some verbiage they can "cut and paste" to show you in a bad light.

The classis example in the case of a shooting would be a cop asks "why would anybody shoot John?" and you answer, truthfully, "Well it's common knowledge John was a bad guy. Probably a lot of people woulda liked to shoot him." Yer done, fried, par boiled and toasted right there. You just gave em all they need to construe motive, make ya into a vigilante, etc.....

[Bullard4075]

Question: Would the NRA have the names of local attorneys for this purpose?

[L_Kilkenny]

I'm not a lawyer nor do I carry a CCW. I have taken classes, talked with many, read a bunch more but didn't stay a Holiday Inn Express last night.

All that being said the best piece of advice I've received is to shut up. But in this advice it was not recommended to mention the word lawyer, claim the 5th, etc. What was taught to me was to just state that you were upset and didn't feel you should talk right now. Nothing more, nothing less. If they persist say nothing. If a LEO is involved in a shooting they are not questioned about the incident for a certain amount of time in Iowa (24 hours I think). This is because no one in their right mind can coherently explain what happened right after an incident and the police, their Union and DA's know this. They cover their butts but not yours. That's why they want YOU to talk right away. Let's face it, you won't see any of them offer up front to give you a day to get your mind right will you? But if you bring up the word lawyer or the 5th it "may" seem a little stand-offish. To claim your upset (you will be) just looks better. I could generally care less with how things look but after something like this I want myself to be in the best light possible, for a jury.

That being said, I worry a lot less about LEO's than I do about DA's. I won't trust a DA as far as I can throw em.

LK

[Pisgah]

A DA is a politician, and he may have all sort of motives in prosecuting a case. A police officer is not a politician, and although he may have more than one motive his main one is simply doing his job. If you do not belive a cop will outright lie on the stand, you have not had much experience in court. Now, they usually aren't doing it for any nefarious reason -- they believe wholeheartedly they have the right man, and they want to see him convicted, so they will stretch the truth, fudge the evidence, make up statements that were never made, and on and on.

Convicting someone of anything legitimately is hard if the defendant won't plead guilty, and often the cops KNOW they have the right person, just not quite enough evidence to put him away. Any police officer who claims he's never stretched the truth just a tad is a liar, plain and simple. I have seen good defense attorneys put decorated, dedicated, fine police officers on the stand and destroy their testimony, because the lawyer KNOWS there's no such thing as an honest cop or, for that matter, a 100% honest person. Once he shows one instance of untruth he has a crack that he can often widen in to a yawning chasm, and an acquittal.

You will often hear that So-and-So "got off on a technicality". Well, thank God, and our legal system, for technicalities! There have been many, many completely innocent foks railroaded by failures to observe the "technicalities". If I am under prosecution, I want an attorney that knows all of them, and is willing to use them to the fullest.

[AJMD429]

I don't "have" an attorney for every potential reason I might ever need one. I do "have" an attorney I have used for simple stuff, wills, real estate, helped wife with a traffic ticket, etc. HIS JOB would be to get his self out of bed, come to the PD RIGHT NOW, then help me get an appropriate 'specialist" for the situation I found myself in.....

I mean really, I don't have an oncologist on call either, but I do have a general sawbones....

Good point...!

(...but "sawbones"... )

[roughcreek]

There is an organization called "Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, LLC" that deals mainly with the legal aftermath of defending yourself.
Web site, forum, training tapes, etc., AND a list of Attorneys EXPERIENCED in defending shootings around the US.
worth a look, and worth having the list of attorneys.

www.armedcitizensnetwork.org

[adirondakjack]

I don't "have" an attorney for every potential reason I might ever need one. I do "have" an attorney I have used for simple stuff, wills, real estate, helped wife with a traffic ticket, etc. HIS JOB would be to get his self out of bed, come to the PD RIGHT NOW, then help me get an appropriate 'specialist" for the situation I found myself in.....

I mean really, I don't have an oncologist on call either, but I do have a general sawbones....

Good point...!

(...but "sawbones"... )

Would you have preferred the less flattering, but more accurate "supervisor of multiple PAs"?

[tman]

do not TALK TO LEO's. in this situation they are NOT on your side. No disrespect to any LEo on this site. it's my own personal opinion. ask for a lawyer, and shut up.

[rangerider7]

If you have shot and killed a bad character that was threatening your life and you find out he was unarmed. I have one word for you throw-down. I got nothing else to say.

[Doc Hudson]

If you have shot and killed a bad character that was threatening your life and you find out he was unarmed. I have one word for you throw-down. I got nothing else to say.

Really bad idea to talk about stuff like that.

i heard of a fellow who often said that he'd shoot anyone he caught in his house and if they were unarmed he'd give them one of his wife's knives.

Sure enough he eventually heard someone breaking into the backdoor. He confrontd them gun in hand, but the burglar grabbed a chef knife from a knife block and advanced. The homeowner shot him dead in the kitchen.

Cops came, took the body away, took a statement and went away.

Over the next few days cops talked to the man's co-workers, they talked to his neighbors, they talked to the folks in the neighborhood saloon. Then they talked to the homeowner again and arrested him for some homicide charge.

i don't know if he beat the wrap or not.

Moral of the story: Never ever discuss the possibility of using a throw-down weapon. It can come back and bit you on the butt!

FWIW, I think the idea of a throw-down weapon is ill-considered. Too many ways modern forensics can smell a rat.

Things have changed since the days Bill Jordan told about when four throw-down guns were fished from a canal.

[redlevel42]

I used that video when teaching HS Seniors about the rights of the accused, and specifically the Fifth Amendment, in an American Political Behavior class I taught the last five years. The School Resource Officer sat in on one of the showings. He pretty much agreed with the concept of keeping one's mouth shut as the best course of action.

I taught that officer in HS, the Chief of Police in one of the nearby little towns, the County Sheriff, his Chief Deputy, and several of the officers on the three departments in my rural county. I'm glad I treated them all good.