First Garand - Sellersville, PA Gun Show

[Haycock]

Small, local show... sorta old school... Forest Lodge VFW hall.... around 50 tables... you get it....

I've been to this show about a half-dozen times, but this time I actually bought something....

Just so this isn't OT, I will share that I almost bought a really nice 9422 in 22 Mag for $400 face-to-face... really nice blue, totally clean... super sharp checkering... only thing was there was a serious ding on the left side of the foregrip at the edge of the checkered area that ruined it for me... I like to do my own damage, especially if it isn't an older gun...

Anyhoo...... in the end I took a big plunge and bought my very first M1 Garand.

The guys I got it from - A&S Arms - are a real class act. They spend a lot of time educating prospects about Garands and they really know their stuff. I've spent at least 90 minutes with them collectively at about 3 or 4 different regional shows over the last few years just discussing and learning about the machines, and I guess in the end all that customer service focus pays off since I ended up buying what I am pretty confident is a clean, CMP Collector Grade equivalent, all original Springfield Armory 1955 model. I spent the last few hours stripping and cleaning it, validating cartouches on-line, double-checking the throat erosion and muzzle wear, etc.

It's the real deal.

Details:

- Muzzle Wear 1, Throat Erosion 2
- 96%+ overall stock and metal finish remaining
- All Springfield Parts
- Receiver: 58704xx (1955)
- Barrel: F65354xx 5 55 (1955)
- Op Rod: 65353xx
- Trigger Group: 65282xx
- Magazine: 65282xx
- Hammer: D55460xx
- .50"x.50" DoD Stock Cartouche (Eagle, 3 Stars)
- "P" w/ serifs proof-mark mid pistol grip

I also got 6 en-blocks with it.... 3 appear to be replicas and 1 i can't identify, but I am pretty sure that two are period-correct H&R models. It also came with the original jointed cleaning kit and a plastic tuble with what I think is a sight-adjustment tool on one side and an oil reservoir with a dipper on the other.

The barrel cleaned out pretty easily and is really, really nice... bright w/ great rifling... nice even crown... honestly, I think the thing has been packed away somewhere for a long, long time and can't have ever been used very much.

Can't WAIT to shoot it.

Gonna take it along with my new/old Belgian BLR next range trip.

Life has been good to me in the gun-collecting realm so far this year.

Very, very good...

... and I am thankful.


Haycock

[txpete]

nothing PINGS like a M1.sounds like you got a nice one congrats .

pete

[AJMD429]

I also got 6 en-blocks with it.... 3 appear to be replicas and 1 i can't identify, but I am pretty sure that two are period-correct H&R models. It also came with the original jointed cleaning kit and a plastic tuble with what I think is a sight-adjustment tool on one side and an oil reservoir with a dipper on the other.

As long as the clips functioned, I wouldn't care if they were 'replicas' or not, unless I were buying the gun as a 'collectible investment piece', in which case, I'd not be shooting it anyway.

As far as the 'original jointed cleaning kit', I'd chalk that up as nice and of historic interest, but if I wanted that bore and muzzle erosion to stay at a "1", I'd not be using it...!

Sounds like you got a really NICE gun, though, hope you enjoy it. "Garands are Grand"...

[awp101]

nothing PINGS like a M1.

Reminds me of an old typewriter. BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM *ping*

Had mine out at the range today. Sure is a fun rifle!

[Haycock]

I also got 6 en-blocks with it.... 3 appear to be replicas and 1 i can't identify, but I am pretty sure that two are period-correct H&R models. It also came with the original jointed cleaning kit and a plastic tuble with what I think is a sight-adjustment tool on one side and an oil reservoir with a dipper on the other.

As long as the clips functioned, I wouldn't care if they were 'replicas' or not, unless I were buying the gun as a 'collectible investment piece', in which case, I'd not be shooting it anyway.

As far as the 'original jointed cleaning kit', I'd chalk that up as nice and of historic interest, but if I wanted that bore and muzzle erosion to stay at a "1", I'd not be using it...!

Sounds like you got a really NICE gun, though, hope you enjoy it. "Garands are Grand"...

Thanks... I definitely plan to shoot it once I get some ball ammo... all I have in '06 is SP hunting loads... and I definitely do NOT plan to use the original cleaning kit...

Haycock

[Noah Zark]

Haycock:

Congrats on your first M1 Rifle. They are a real hoot to own, shoot, and tinker with.

I was passing through the area and stopped at the Sellersville show late Sat AM (1100-1145) during which time the "A" half of A&S was explaining the whys and wherefores of an M1 to a late-20s or early 30s clean cut young gentleman, whom I'm fairly certain made a purchase, judging from "A" 's very attractive daughter calling in a 4473.

The A&S folks are IMO the best of the "CMP resellers" that I've come across. They may be offering M1 Rifles for double the going rate of the CMP, but you do get more for your money -- A&S cleans up the wood and metal, and very lightly sands and steams the furniture as necessary; their post-cleaning examples are beautiful. If they have the parts a given rifle needs in their extensive inventory of M1 parts to make it "correct," they install those parts and offer the now correct M1 to those customers who seek such examples. Further, A&S take great pains to educate customers, especially the uninitiated, on the World of the M1. Your experience yesterday bears this out.

IMO the vast majority of "CMP Resellers" are not worth patronizing because it's a waste of money. It is less expensive to pull together the documentation and join the GCA for $25 a year, in order to buy a $600 Service Grade rifle that some "CMP Resellers" mark up to $1000 or $1200, and only wipe off some of the obvious external preservative.

A&S is different in that they spend a good amount of time on their rifles and thus truly add value, especially for first time buyers, or those seeking an M1 that either cannot, or choose not to meet CMP purchasing requirements. Good people, great product, IMO.

You going to the FOTDHAS show at the Allentown Fairgrounds next Sat? I'll be there from 0830 to about 1130.

Again, congrats and enjoy!

Noah

[Haycock]

Haycock:

Congrats on your first M1 Rifle. They are a real hoot to own, shoot, and tinker with.

I was passing through the area and stopped at the Sellersville show late Sat AM (1100-1145) during which time the "A" half of A&S was explaining the whys and wherefores of an M1 to a late-20s or early 30s clean cut young gentleman, whom I'm fairly certain made a purchase, judging from "A" 's very attractive daughter calling in a 4473.

The A&S folks are IMO the best of the "CMP resellers" that I've come across. They may be offering M1 Rifles for double the going rate of the CMP, but you do get more for your money -- A&S cleans up the wood and metal, and very lightly sands and steams the furniture as necessary; their post-cleaning examples are beautiful. If they have the parts a given rifle needs in their extensive inventory of M1 parts to make it "correct," they install those parts and offer the now correct M1 to those customers who seek such examples. Further, A&S take great pains to educate customers, especially the uninitiated, on the World of the M1. Your experience yesterday bears this out.

IMO the vast majority of "CMP Resellers" are not worth patronizing because it's a waste of money. It is less expensive to pull together the documentation and join the GCA for $25 a year, in order to buy a $600 Service Grade rifle that some "CMP Resellers" mark up to $1000 or $1200, and only wipe off some of the obvious external preservative.

A&S is different in that they spend a good amount of time on their rifles and thus truly add value, especially for first time buyers, or those seeking an M1 that either cannot, or choose not to meet CMP purchasing requirements. Good people, great product, IMO.

You going to the FOTDHAS show at the Allentown Fairgrounds next Sat? I'll be there from 0830 to about 1130.

Again, congrats and enjoy!

Noah

Noah,

I'm fairly certain that was me, although your description is far kinder than reality warrants (don't think I had shaved... 39 in a couple of months, etc.). You clearly know the A&S outfit well... I was interested in where they had sourced their M1s and asked them that, and there were 4 or 5 that were CMP guns... I don't think mine was one of them... and the rest they had purchased from individual owners... no doubt some of those folks bought from the CMP too... anyway, I think that they handle all stock acquisitions pretty much the same way as you described.

Looking over my particular rifle, my impression was that it was unlikely that they had swapped any parts in. Looking at the serial number sequencing it seemed to me that there were too many serial numbers too close together across related parts for this rifle to have been significantly rebuilt (barrel & op rod w/i 200, trigger-group & magazine w/i 100, etc.).... but hey... I'm a Garand newbie, so I'm probably wrong.

Re: the Forks of the Delaware show... I sure hope to go. I really like the historical arms nature of the event... in fact I almost went to one of the FDHAS monthly shows in Easton with my neighbor a couple of weeks ago. Definitely plan to make one of those smaller deals sometime.

I'll PM you my cell number... shoot me yours and I'll hit it if I can get there...


Cheers,
Haycock

[Haycock]

Haycock:

Congrats on your first M1 Rifle. They are a real hoot to own, shoot, and tinker with.

I was passing through the area and stopped at the Sellersville show late Sat AM (1100-1145) during which time the "A" half of A&S was explaining the whys and wherefores of an M1 to a late-20s or early 30s clean cut young gentleman, whom I'm fairly certain made a purchase, judging from "A" 's very attractive daughter calling in a 4473.

The A&S folks are IMO the best of the "CMP resellers" that I've come across. They may be offering M1 Rifles for double the going rate of the CMP, but you do get more for your money -- A&S cleans up the wood and metal, and very lightly sands and steams the furniture as necessary; their post-cleaning examples are beautiful. If they have the parts a given rifle needs in their extensive inventory of M1 parts to make it "correct," they install those parts and offer the now correct M1 to those customers who seek such examples. Further, A&S take great pains to educate customers, especially the uninitiated, on the World of the M1. Your experience yesterday bears this out.

IMO the vast majority of "CMP Resellers" are not worth patronizing because it's a waste of money. It is less expensive to pull together the documentation and join the GCA for $25 a year, in order to buy a $600 Service Grade rifle that some "CMP Resellers" mark up to $1000 or $1200, and only wipe off some of the obvious external preservative.

A&S is different in that they spend a good amount of time on their rifles and thus truly add value, especially for first time buyers, or those seeking an M1 that either cannot, or choose not to meet CMP purchasing requirements. Good people, great product, IMO.

You going to the FOTDHAS show at the Allentown Fairgrounds next Sat? I'll be there from 0830 to about 1130.

Again, congrats and enjoy!

Noah

Noah,

I'm fairly certain that was me, although your description is far kinder than reality warrants (don't think I had shaved... 39 in a couple of months, etc.). You clearly know the A&S outfit well... I was interested in where they had sourced their M1s and asked them that, and there were 4 or 5 that were CMP guns... I don't think mine was one of them... and the rest they had purchased from individual owners... no doubt some of those folks bought from the CMP too... anyway, I think that they handle all stock acquisitions pretty much the same way as you described.

Looking over my particular rifle, my impression was that it was unlikely that they had swapped any parts in. Looking at the serial number sequencing it seemed to me that there were too many serial numbers too close together across related parts for this rifle to have been significantly rebuilt (barrel & op rod w/i 200, trigger-group & magazine w/i 100, etc.).... but hey... I'm a Garand newbie, so I'm probably wrong.

Re: the Forks of the Delaware show... I sure hope to go. I really like the historical arms nature of the event... in fact I almost went to one of the FDHAS monthly shows in Easton with my neighbor a couple of weeks ago. Definitely plan to make one of those smaller deals sometime.

I'll PM you my cell number... shoot me yours and I'll hit it if I can get there...


Cheers,
Haycock

Come to think of it... I saw Sixgun at the last one of these that I went to! I recognized him from his (old) avatar image, went up and introduced myself. Not long after he changed avatars... coincidence? I think not!

Maybe we can scare him up too and call it a regular Leverguns Community event!


Haycock

[Paladin]

Have a great time with your M1, it is a rare chance to own a piece of functional history that is fun.

[Noah Zark]

Noah,

Looking over my particular rifle, my impression was that it was unlikely that they had swapped any parts in. Looking at the serial number sequencing it seemed to me that there were too many serial numbers too close together across related parts for this rifle to have been significantly rebuilt (barrel & op rod w/i 200, trigger-group & magazine w/i 100, etc.).... but hey... I'm a Garand newbie, so I'm probably wrong.

Cheers,
Haycock

Haycock:

Those numbers on the individual M1 parts are not serial numbers, but "drawing numbers" -- the number that appeared on the drawing(s) made for the individual part(s). The prefix of the drawing number is the letter designation for the physical dimensions of the blueprint itself, "A" being the smallest and about the size of a piece of copy paper, and "D" being about the size of a small desktop. "B" and "C" are in between in dimensions.

Depending on the receiver S/N, the drawing numbers of other components of an M1 should fall within clearly defined ranges of drawing numbers. Revisions of drawings carried prefixes, for example, an early revision may have a suffix of -2SA or -5SA after the drawing number. Later revisions will have a suffix with a larger number -- for example, -10SA or -12SA. It is fairly well known what revision or drawing number suffix is "correct" for a particular receiver serial number.

Dealers with large inventories of M1 parts often remove parts with "incorrect" drawing revision prefixes, and install parts with "correct" drawing number prefixes. A&S does this, as do many other dealers who specialize in M1 Rifles. A&S also does a lot of buying of M1 rifles from individuals at shows as you pointed out, and did purchase a large number of Service Grade M1s from the CMP when they were available over a year ago and earlier.

Noah

[Haycock]

Noah,

Looking over my particular rifle, my impression was that it was unlikely that they had swapped any parts in. Looking at the serial number sequencing it seemed to me that there were too many serial numbers too close together across related parts for this rifle to have been significantly rebuilt (barrel & op rod w/i 200, trigger-group & magazine w/i 100, etc.).... but hey... I'm a Garand newbie, so I'm probably wrong.

Cheers,
Haycock

Haycock:

Those numbers on the individual M1 parts are not serial numbers, but "drawing numbers" -- the number that appeared on the drawing(s) made for the individual part(s). The prefix of the drawing number is the letter designation for the physical dimensions of the blueprint itself, "A" being the smallest and about the size of a piece of copy paper, and "D" being about the size of a small desktop. "B" and "C" are in between in dimensions.

Depending on the receiver S/N, the drawing numbers of other components of an M1 should fall within clearly defined ranges of drawing numbers. Revisions of drawings carried prefixes, for example, an early revision may have a suffix of -2SA or -5SA after the drawing number. Later revisions will have a suffix with a larger number -- for example, -10SA or -12SA. It is fairly well known what revision or drawing number suffix is "correct" for a particular receiver serial number.

Dealers with large inventories of M1 parts often remove parts with "incorrect" drawing revision prefixes, and install parts with "correct" drawing number prefixes. A&S does this, as do many other dealers who specialize in M1 Rifles. A&S also does a lot of buying of M1 rifles from individuals at shows as you pointed out, and did purchase a large number of Service Grade M1s from the CMP when they were available over a year ago and earlier.

Noah

Very cool, Noah... thanks... that's good to know. I will look into the drawing-number to serial-number mapping further.

Don't know if you are acquainted with Paul Lowe at Lowe's Certified Guns (also in Sellersville) or not, but he's pretty knowledgeable about M1s and has previously offered to verify and value anything I might pick up. I think I'm going to bring my new toy over to him to see what he says about its correctness and value.

Got your PM, BTW... hope to get up to A-Town for the show, and if I do I'll call...


Haycock

[bdhold]

not meant to offend and I may have overlooked it, but will you report the selling price for your new Garand to us?
thanks

[Haycock]

not meant to offend and I may have overlooked it, but will you report the selling price for your new Garand to us?
thanks

I paid $1595 tax, etc. included. That's about $95 more than the CMP charges for Collector Grade specimens in equivalent condition.

Hope I didn't get screwed...


Haycock

[O.S.O.K.]

Well congrats! Can't wait to see a pic

I have resigned myself to waiting for my Dad to return mine.... I returned the SOG garand (after the gunsmith told me that the barrel was rusted onto the receiver and he was afraid to crack the receiver trying to get it off) and have the parts and stock up for sale on gunbroker. The stock is really nice, I was tempted to keep it... I'm sending the accessories to my Dad to put with the rifle for now.

Don't feel sorry for me, I have way too many other rifles and handguns to shoot

[bdhold]

thanks again - yes, looking forward to the photos. (have a rifle to photograph myself and will probably get it done this week)

[Noah Zark]

. . . I paid $1595 tax, etc. included. That's about $95 more than the CMP charges for Collector Grade specimens in equivalent condition.

Hope I didn't get screwed...

Haycock

As I mentioned, A&S really goes over their M1s. I've seen, handled, and owned Collector Grade CMP examples and the M1 Rifles that A&S sells are much more aesthetically pleasing. They put some work into cleaning them up, and even if the rifle started out as a Service Grade, after A&S's thorough going-over, your rifle likely now has all the right parts for Collector Grade anyway. Again, this is one dealer where you do get what you pay for.

Best,

Noah

[Rusty]

How about a little bit of trivia for Haycock's benefit?

How do you load the enbloc clips?

Top round on the right or left?

What happens if you get it backwards?

[Noah Zark]

How about a little bit of trivia for Haycock's benefit?

How do you load the enbloc clips?

Top round on the right or left?

What happens if you get it backwards?

How do you load the enbloc clips? With your fingers and ammo.

Top round on the right or left? Doesn't matter.

What happens if you get it backwards? Usually nothing, in most M1 Rifles.


Seriously, the problem with the M1 Rifle receiver that caused the "Seventh Round Stoppage" and was temporarily "fixed" by loading the en bloc clip such that the last round in is on the top right was permanently fixed with a receiver machining change before WWII got fully underway. Excess metal was removed on early rifles byt that metal was later found to pay a key role in the rifle feeding and functioning properly as the en bloc clip was emptied. The problem was manifested usually by the weapon having a feed stoppage on the seventh round. It was discovered that loading the clips with the last round on the top right usually prevented the Seventh Round Stoppage, and a process change to not remove what was once thought as the "excess metal" that John Garand put there intentionally fixed the problem for good. M1 clips have been traditionally loaded with the last round on top right ever since. SOURCE: Hatcher's Book of the Garand by Gen Julian Hatcher.

All that said, I've fired over 1800 rds combined through two of my M1 Rifles with the last round loaded Top Left, and I've NEVER experienced a Seventh Round Stoppage. Hence, my smart-aleck answers at the top.

Noah

[Rusty]

You are so right sir!

Actually I never had the problem myself either, but why tempt fate?

Kind of like I wonder if it's really cold enough to make your tongue stick to the flagpole? I'm not sure I want to find out when the chips are down.

[stew71]

Haycock...congrats on your M1. Now then...check your local ranges for the next CMP Garand match, plunk down your $10 or $15, and put that ol' warrior back into service.

[Haycock]

Haycock...congrats on your M1. Now then...check your local ranges for the next CMP Garand match, plunk down your $10 or $15, and put that ol' warrior back into service.

Yup... looks like Kimberton Fish & Game holds them regularly.... could be fun, and useful.

Haycock

[fordwannabe]

Haycock are you close to Kimberton? Dixons occasionally has enblock clips. Just so you know. Tom

[Haycock]

Haycock are you close to Kimberton? Dixons occasionally has enblock clips. Just so you know. Tom

Bout 90 minutes... far enough so that I don't know Dixons...

Haycock

[Ysabel Kid]

nothing PINGS like a M1.sounds like you got a nice one congrats .

pete

+1