OT: Full-Boat .357 Trashing S&W J-Frames - Fact or Fiction??

[Haycock]

Okay, so I have been shooting a ton of .357 recently... through my 1894, 686 and GP100. I have NOT however been shooting .357 through my S&W Model 60-9... I've been shooting .38 +p through that...

I would like to solicit opinions from you all on how much truth there is to the "common knowledge" that full-boat mag loads will throw J-frames out of time, so that they start shaving lead at the forcing cone, etc.

Is that true?

The skinny J-frame forcing cone is obvious, compared to an L-frame or a Ruger, but I'd really like to shoot .357s for practice with the 60 so I can feel comfortable carrying it with that load too.

What do you all think? Is this true, but only after like 5000 rounds? Is it real, but only for older Smiths? Whats the deal?


Haycock

[Doc Hudson]

Shoot anything you want to shoot! your wrist will wear out faster than the revolver.

I've owned and carried an S&W M-640 for over a dozen years. i don't keep the meticulous records Terry Murbach keeps on his guns so I can't say for certain how many rounds it has fired, but rest assured, most of my shooting of that little popper has been with full-power magnum loads. I'd dare say that for every .38 Special load fired, it has fired 5 to 10 magnum loads, including some Cor-Bon 180 gr. LFN-GC hunting loads. The bulk of handloads that little pistol has digested have consisted of a 125 gr. JHP over 19.2 rains of Win 296, inspite of the claimes of others, ther is no evidence of flame cutting in the topstrap.

My M-640 is just as tight now as it was when I bought it.

You or others might be asking,"Why is that darned old fool shooting magnum loads in that little J-frame all the time?"

The answer is simple. My M-640 is my Always Gun. it is always in a pocket or on my belt, it is always in arms reach, and it is always loaded with full-power magnum ammo. Why on earth would I practice with soft-ball loads and then expect to shoot manstompers with the same ease? Train the way you intend to fight! I will be fighting with magnum loads so I need to get accustomed to magnum recoil and learn to handle it.

I do not claim to be any sort of expert pistolero, but I've managed to learn to make rapid double-tap shots with good results. If I can do it, anyone can.

BTW, I detest the sticky rubber grips that came on my M-640. So I traded them for pair of skinny wooden J-frame service grips. Now it not only doesn't stick to my pockets or shirts, but the overall length is almost 1/4" shorter.

So quit babying your Chief's Special and let it roar. Your hand will be ready to quit before the Litttle Chief is.

[kimwcook]

I carry a J-frame S&W 649 in 357 and I shoot full house loads for qualifying and any time I'm carrying. I've had it for years and it's one of my seconds listed with my department. I'd say I've shot over 300 full house rounds through it and it's still tight (as stated my hand/wrist will let me know when enough is enough). I don't practice with it a lot, but some and I shoot mainly 38's through it just for practice.

[alnitak]

I have not reaad anything about the J-frames, but I have seen data that supports the position that a steady diet of 125g .357 mag in a K-frame will affect the forcing cone over time (details escape me). It seems to apply to only the lighter magnum loads, and not the heavier bullets.

However, since I don't own one, nor have any direct experience to draw from, I will let the experts weigh in.

[KCSO]

It's all relative, what is a lot of shooting for you? In 74 I shot a M27 loose with 2 years practice, but we are talking more rounds than most folks shoot in a life time. My Dad's Colt D Special is still going strong after, wel since 1956 for sure and maybe 5000 rounds total. I would say that 5000 rounds of 357's will loosen a J frame some, how long is that going to take you?

[Haycock]

So... great feedback all around. Many thanks, gents.

I will consider this a non-issue and begin to practice with - and carry - the mags.


Haycock

[revolvergeek]

My 640-1 has had to be rebuilt twice so far. I bought the first one that I laid my hands on and shot it exclusively with magnum ammo for years. The first rebuild was at around 2500 rounds. The timing was going out and the cylinder stop cuts on the cylinder where getting all beaten out of shape. I sent it back to S&W and they replaced the cylinder and retimed it. Somewhere around 3700 rounds it started going out of time again, so this time I sent it to Karl Sokol and had a little work done on it in addition to retiming it. It came back a lovely, slick, fast little thing.

Most all of this ammo was full power 125 JHPs, which everybody knew then that you *had* to carry if you were serious about protecting yourself. They took their toll on the 640-1 and on me (I should have used muffs as well as plugs when shooting that fire-breathing beast) and since that second rebuild I have only shot milder stuff out of it (lots of .38 spl +P+ and either 110 or 140/145 jhp .357 mag) and it has held up much better.

[Idiot]

And if this thread goes long enough you'll get a couple folks who destroyed their J-Frames with three abbreviated boxes of Cor-Bons. Just shoot the sucker with what you will use and when it gets too loose to lock-up without spitting in your face, send it in and get it fixed. Like Doc said, it will probably outlast you.

And if it's keeping you awake at night, buy an SP101 and sleep like a baby.

Have fun.

[Blaine]

I shoot full house loads only....158 grain JHP .357s....out of my Centennial (Doc, you have good taste). Grizz has a 180 grain load for his that I've shot, and they are great and don't really kick anymore than the normal loads. The only thing you might want to be careful of is real light bullets shot with a heavy load...they might move out of crimp and lock up the cyl...that's bad JuJu....Anyway, I've shot 15 or 20 boxes of 50 and the sucker is just as tight as new. That and a little AirLite .22 are my always guns.

[rjohns94]

I shoot them out of my 60-3PRO all the time. I agree with Doc. Shoot what your intending to use.

[Poohgyrr]

And the right grips can make a big difference. I had to try several different styles before figuring out what grips I like on my 640-1 (always gun).

[Hobie]

The only thing that I can add is that the shop I work for hasn't seen any of the .357 Mag J-frames they've sold come back for such problems.

[firefuzz]

If you look closely at the cylinder lock notches on a "J" frame cylinder you'll find there is more "meat" on the "J" frames between the notch and the chamber wall than there is on a "K" frame as the notches are exactly between the chambers on the "J", they're to one side on "K" and other frames. Therefore, in theory at least, that part of the lock up on a "J" frame should be stronger.

I practice with my hand loads which are loaded to a hot +P+ level, I only load light loads for the girls to shoot starting out. These loads have more felt recoil than the Glasser Safety Slugs I keep in my ported Taurus "J" frame for business. I run about 100 rounds of these thru the gun every time I have a pistol day on the range, over the years that accounts for close to three thousand rounds and the gun is as tight as the day I bought it.

As far as felt recoil, the comment made earlier by Poohgyrr bears repeating. My daughters gun, identical to mine, had the "boot" style grips on it new. When I changed them to the larger "gripper" type she enjoyed shooting the gun much more and her scores improved dramatically. Compact is good, too small is almost worthless.

Rob

[Grizz]

the only thing that hasn't been mentioned is the 'split forcing cone' problem, if it is a problem. that's the one I've read about that spooks me a little. so far no one has chimed in about that, so maybe it's just internet flotsam, or maybe it happened once and multiplied. ????

ps Blaine, do you recall the distance to those gongs we used with the snubbie? I remember we said "dead deer", but I can't remember the range.

Grizz

[Blaine]

the only thing that hasn't been mentioned is the 'split forcing cone' problem, if it is a problem. that's the one I've read about that spooks me a little. so far no one has chimed in about that, so maybe it's just internet flotsam, or maybe it happened once and multiplied. ????

ps Blaine, do you recall the distance to those gongs we used with the snubbie? I remember we said "dead deer", but I can't remember the range.

Grizz

Maybe forty yards? You were hitting better than I was that day

[Modoc ED]

the only thing that hasn't been mentioned is the 'split forcing cone' problem, if it is a problem. that's the one I've read about that spooks me a little. so far no one has chimed in about that, so maybe it's just internet flotsam, or maybe it happened once and multiplied. ????

ps Blaine, do you recall the distance to those gongs we used with the snubbie? I remember we said "dead deer", but I can't remember the range.

Grizz

I've never heard of "the 'split forcing cone' problem" until I read your post Grizz. I shot my Model 60-8 with 158gr JHP .357s without any problems over the time I had it. Interesting note though. I think I'll google the split forcing cone to see what comes up.

[InTheWoods]

The split forcing cone thing is basically a k-frame deal. If you look at a k-frame forcing cone, you will easily see why - it is shaved on one side to make room for the cylinder to close. The problem occured mostly with 125 grain hollow points when they first came out. It was not a problem with the normal 158 grain magnums. Never heard of this problem with a j-frame.

[Grizz]

Huh. I never noticed a shaved cone on my K frames; I'll have to dig 'em out sometime. I shot some deer with a 4" 66 using keith semi-wad cutters that were cranked a little too too........

I sure liked the idea that I could make meat with that 640, even if I never do. I guess it's time to take the little gun out with some jugs and just see what the various loads do to them.

Ah spring must be getting close when a young man's fantasies of shooting water start to resurface.

Grizz

[Modoc ED]

InTheWoods -- Thanks for that reply. I think the 125gr .357 magnum rounds are what forced S&W to quit making the K-frames for .357 magnums. As you said, I never heard of a problem with the heavier .357 magnums in the K-frames. Bill Jordan, who is recognized as influencing S&W to make the K-frames in .357 magnum, never reported problems with the forcing cones as far as I know.

[revolvergeek]

I didn't mean to suggest that you shouldn't shoot magnums in it, far from it, I just was sharing what had happen with mine. It is a very cool little gun and I suspect that it would be one of the last guns that I would get rid of.

Regarding recoil, I put a set of checkered ebony Eagle Secret Service grips on mine and they made a huge improvement on everything else that I had tried. It kicks, but it doesn't torque or wiggle around anymore. I also stippled the backstrap, which didn't make a huge difference but didn't hurt either.

[firefuzz]

I haven't heard of forcing cone split problems in new guns for years, but they weren't confined to "K" frames. I've seen several model 27 and 28 S&W's with split forcing cones, usually the result of firing of large amounts of extremely hot ammo and an improperly cut forcing cone to begin with. A company named Bangor Punta owned S&W during most of the 70's and 80's, during this time S&W's QC took a real nose dive that took years to recover from. It was an extreme problem, that and lead shaving, with early "L" frames as the forcing cone had virtually no angle to it at all. I've helped re-cut dozens of those guns. I've got three "K" frame .357s, all different generations and none of them have a "shaved" forcing cone. One of them, a 19-5, has been thru three different instructor schools, about 700 rds of mags each, and had several thousand other rounds, both mags and lighter loads, fired thru it with no problems.

I'm not offering this as an excuse, just a fact: "J" frame revolvers were designed as last ditch, easily concealable, defensive weapons at short ranges for cops and others with that type of need, a nitch that was a "carry alot and shoot a little" type application. and weren't actually intended for mass amounts of shooting, especially with magnum loads. They are much more accurate at longer ranges than their original design ever called for and the realization of this, and a lot more concealed carry by non-LEO types, has caused shooters to expand on their original design role. Most hold up well, but it is unreasonable for us to expect them to take a steady pounding of large doses of magnum rounds designed to be fired in much heavier built firearms and not have problems as a result.

The more and harder you use a motor vehicle the more maintenence you expect to pull on it, it shouldn't be any different for a gun.

Rob